How To Build A No-Quit Marriage

People walk away from marriages based on feelings. They thought they had an out from the very beginning. They entered into a contract instead of a covenant. And if you go into it with that attitude, then you're going to easily go, well, you know what, I just don't feel it anymore. Feelings fluctuate. Love is a decision. And you just have to renew that decision every day. I need to love this person unconditionally. Yeah. Everybody, welcome back to the Gaining Ground podcast, where we're all about helping men grow. Thanks so much for tuning in. We hope today's episode is helpful. Uh, and we're actually bringing back part two of something that a lot of you really enjoyed. So thank you so much for your positive feedback, talking about, uh, marriage relationships. And I think regardless of, uh, maybe like what relational season you may be in a single, dating, engaged, married, divorced, wherever you find yourself, uh, I think you'll find, uh, some helpful content and, uh, most importantly, truth from God's word today in our episode, and I brought back, uh, some of y'all's favorite guests. As always, I've got my co-host with me. Uh, dad, how are you this morning? I'm good. Turns out we're better together, I guess. That is true. And so we brought the two best parts of our lives. Okay.

And my mother, Michelle, and my wife, Mackenzie, how is everybody doing? Thank you so much for coming back to Gaining Ground. So, so honored to be here today. Our ratings skyrocketed with you. So we brought you back on the boys' podcast. We're honored. It's okay. But today, today you can be on it. All right. After this, I can't make any promises, but, uh, we had a helpful conversation last time, all about marriage and relationships. We're picking that up. And so we're going to go ahead and jump in. Um, I want to talk about, um, you know, uh, have you ever heard the phrase like, like opposites attract, right? You guys have talked about that. And, and dad, I've heard you talk about that in, in messages over the years where, and I think the statement was, uh, like opposites attract when you're dating, but then when you get into the marriage, some of those, uh, differences can actually weigh on you. Is that correct? Yeah. I mean, opposites tend to attack. Opposites tend to attack, right? So they can attract before you're married, but then they can repel or attack after you're married. So why don't I, can you walk us through a little bit about, uh, what that means? And this is an all play. It's not just for him. So if you guys have any wisdom to offer, please feel free to jump in.

What is, uh, one difference between you and mom that maybe you discovered, uh, that used to be cute and maybe now is not so cute. Is that a good way to ask that question? What does that look like? Well, I think when we first started, I think Michelle kind of, when she got, uh, introduced to the Sherman family, it was a brave new world. It's a wild time. Wild time. Very different than my family. Very exciting, you know, just lots of, lots going on. So much fun. I loved it, but there were times where I was like, okay, I got to go in the other room for a minute. I need, I need just a second. Like overstimulated or what? It was, it was a lot. Cause there was lots of yelling and fun and excitement and games and people running everywhere. And that was not what I grew up with. What, what was, what did you grow up with? I grew up in a very organized, scheduled home. Just militant. Not militant, not militant. No, but it was like. Mamaw did listen to the first episode. So we need to be careful. Shout out to Mamaw. By the way, whenever we, I started dating you, like I was like, like I would go home and it's like, man, they had the best food in that house. Yeah.

Food was so good there. Food was good. Mamaw's main cook. Baked goods. Lots of baked goods. She loves a baked good. Like they had dessert for every meal. And it was like, this is the greatest place I've ever been. And then I would have dessert for breakfast. So we were regimented, but yeah. That was allowed. A few little twists. You never know. Yeah. But just different. We kind of fended for ourselves when it came to food. Did you say dessert for breakfast? I did. If she made dessert the night before, that's what I knew I was going to have for breakfast the next day. I feel like I need to pause and just say this. Like, you're not speaking about someone that's a stranger to me. This is about my grandmother. I know. And my grandfather, of which I've spent countless nights in their home. And I don't think we've ever had dessert for breakfast. It's sitting there on the counter a lot. Yeah, it's out. But I just, that's what I knew I was going to have. I can't say she really served it to me, but I just.

It was there. This is what it was going to be. You just have to be assertive. I do that. I do that whenever we have crumbled cookies in our house. Yeah. You know, I keep, we keep like a fork in the, in the package. Yeah. And, uh, you know, it's, it, it's true. It's gospel truth that if you just take little bites over time, it doesn't count. You guys said that. Yeah, absolutely. All right. So, so y'all, y'all started from different places based on your upbringing or a family of origin. Right. And then eventually two people come together and biblically, that's what marriage is, right? Genocide. This is 224, that's why a man shall leave his father and mother and be united into one flesh. It's this mingling of souls, biblically, where two people, right, become one before the Lord, make a covenant, which we'll talk about in a little bit. And that's a beautiful thing, right? Two, you know, individuals becoming one, but sometimes that can be, it can be tricky to navigate. So what wisdom do you have to somebody that's listening right now thinking, hey, I like my boyfriend, girlfriend, fiance,

or they're already married and they have a spouse and some of those differences are presenting some conflict for them? Well, what happens is those differences when you get married go from being alluring to annoying, okay? For example, this beautiful woman, amazing woman, she's just, she's kind of messy and she's not very tidy and I'm very, I'm not messy. If you go into our bathroom, my side is like neat and tidy, orderly, all the drawers are organized. My closet is impeccable. Hers is like a tornado. It looks like a swirling tornado. I think I'm learning something right now. I always thought that you got that from your mom, but that's more from your dad because that's how Landon is. Everything has a place and it needs to be in its place at all times. Don't leave your clothes on the ground. Do not do your laundry immediately. Everything is put away. There's a lot of just organization happening in our home, which I'm so grateful for. Yeah. But very difficult. All right, mom, you have 30 seconds to defend yourself. Well, I can't really defend myself.

It's true. I think it's a, most people probably would not guess that. No. I think, you know, just usually in a lot of ways, he's got stuff going. I'm full of surprises. He is, but he. I am full of surprises. That is a big surprise that he is the tidy one, I am not. I think part of it is she's got, you know, she's a beautiful woman. And so just, there's lots of. True. She's put together. There's lots of creams and lotions. Oh my gosh. So much going on. We did talk about that last time. I know, move on, move on. Little jars of things. I've had more people asking me about all those things. Let's talk about. Your supplements. Yes, all the things. It's a bunch of ladies that want the supplement list. They do. They want the supplement. All right, would you say that that's the biggest tension for you guys over the years? I mean, or, I mean, in an essence, that's small,

but sometimes the small things can, can pile up. Marriage magnifies everything. Okay, wait, hold on, time out. That, say that again. Marriage magnifies everything because you, you are living in it. So it's, it becomes more apparent is what I think. And I think that also comes from just different personalities, but I am also an introvert by nature. He is not. So that was fun and exciting at first. And I mean, I thought it was just so much fun to go wherever because I knew it was going to be a party, but then it comes back down to, even when I'm living in that all the time, I, it can get a little weary. Mom, I want to go back to something you just said. You said marriage magnifies everything, right? One of the things that I've felt in my own life is yeah, marriage is like a magnifying glass where honestly, if you're, even if you're dating somebody or engaged, you can still kind of hide some of your flaws. And I think the area that I found this the most acute in my life was like, when you get married, every ounce of selfishness you have gets exposed. And I actually feel like that's true. Anytime you, like when we added kids to our home,

you would talk about selfishness. I don't want to change a diaper. I don't want to get up in the middle of the night. Well, when you move from engagement to marriage, I think you get another dose of what's real and true. So how have you guys overcome? Let's just be honest. Everybody listening to this can see selfishness in their spouse, even if it's small and you've got the greatest spouse ever and you're killing it in marriage. How have you guys, by God's grace, learned to overcome some of those things in your spouse? And Mackenzie, obviously feel free to speak freely about me as well. You guys have a lot of wisdom today. I want to keep hearing. Well, I think one thing that I have to remember is I am not His Holy Spirit. It's not my job. I have to control myself. So if I can keep that in order, then I become a little more tolerant, maybe, or forgiving of, okay, this is who I am. this is who He is, I'm different than that. It gives me time, it gives me pause. But it's not my job to correct everything. The Holy Spirit, if there's anything that needs to be corrected, the Holy Spirit needs to do that, not me.

But I think that's what my job is, is to ask the Holy Spirit myself, do I say anything or do I not? Or do I, you know, so it's gotta be, Holy Spirit's gotta be in there. That's for sure. Dad, how would you respond to that? I mean, Mom just said something. Mom, look at you, you're the all-star so far. I know, she's on a roll, good job. You're not His Holy Spirit. Dad, you agreed with that, but then you mentioned a word that gets brought up a ton, biblically, help. Right, the helper. When humankind is created, Eve is created as the? Helper. Helpmate, right? And what's hilarious about it is the Holy Spirit in John 14, 15, and 16, and 17, when Jesus is in the farewell discourse, He talks about the Holy Spirit and He calls it? A helper. A helper. Well, that's what came to mind when you said that. I didn't disagree with your statement. I think it's accurate. I just think that, to me, it's so beautiful.

Some things I don't really understand is I know that sometimes, and I get this, I probably don't understand it because I'm not a woman, right? But I've heard, like, maybe some women don't like that idea that I'm a helpmate. But to me, it's so beautiful because here's God in the essence of His creation and He looks at man and He says, this guy needs help. This guy needs help. And it's not a, what have I done? But it's like, what else do I need to do? And so He's like, I'm gonna make this beautiful compliment, this perfect compliment to man, woman. And I just think I'm so grateful for that moment because, like, I couldn't live without this woman. I mean, I wouldn't want to live without her, I can tell you that, right? So sweet, so kind. I think that goes back to, like, the last episode too, when we talked about submission. Like, there's a lot of misconstrued, like, ideas around what is a helper and what is my role. And I think, like, that's such an encouragement to the wives listening. Like, listen to what Drew just said. Like, it was the perfect design that God created you to be the helper. And that was the, like, from the very beginning,

that was the idea. And I think that's, like, yeah, that gets me excited to be a helper in this marriage, for sure. Well, I think everything you guys are saying is so true and has a lot of wisdom, right? And everybody listening to this, if you're in a marriage, you've been able to see your spouse's flaws, there's nothing to hide. Marriage exposes everything, it's the great magnifier. And one of, we've been married 10 years, you guys are what, 30? Almost 39. 39 years, okay, so between 49 years of marriage that are sitting at this table and guiding this conversation right now, I would say without fail, the number one thing that when Mackenzie is selfish, when I am selfish, she's probably thinking this about me as well, is we made a decision before the Lord that we were gonna enter into a covenant, right? And you guys have talked about, mom and dad, you guys have talked about covenant marriage a ton over the years. And I think it'd be really helpful to talk through that because the truth is you have to choose every day, right? It's not just choosing one time at a wedding that you got a bunch of friends and family

and everything's exciting at, you gotta choose every day. And so the terminology I wanna use to frame the two camps, I think people have the opportunity to sit in would be covenant versus contract, okay? Some people treat marriage like a contract. If this stops working for me, if it's not as exciting, if your selfishness becomes too much, I'm out. Others see marriage like a covenant. When things get hard, what do you do? You lean back in, you present these before the Lord, you fight for what you committed to all those years ago. So dad, can you explain a little bit more about covenant, what it is, where we get that idea from? And then I wanna get practical on what that looks like day to day. Is that a good place to go in the conversation? Yeah, well, covenant love comes only from God. And it's really incredible to think about, if you think about the gospel story, it's built around a new covenant. You open your Bible, right, to the New Testament, the word testament means covenant. And it's God entering into a new covenant with us through Jesus. So it's such a incredible, incredible thing. And we think about, I think when we think about covenant and we think about, if you hurt me, right, a contract says I'll walk away, but a covenant says, you just said it Landon, a covenant says.

I'll lean back in and I'll fight for you. And our natural tendency as human beings is to say, wait a minute, that doesn't feel fair. I did my part. She or he's not doing their part. But isn't that what God did for us? Romans 5, 8, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. I will tell you this. No one knows more about contracts than real estate agents. Oh, yeah. Contracts are my life. You know the folly of contracts. Right. Just speak about that just for a second. Well, I mean, we write up contracts to purchase a house or whatever it is. But in that contract, there's things that everyone has to comply to, that everyone signs off on. Like, OK, we all agree to this. But the question that I'm asked the most is like, OK, yes, but how can I get out of it? Yeah. What are my loopholes? So there's outs, there's loopholes. There's probably end dates, too. For sure. And when that contract, let's say we get it, yes. There's like your trial period where you're inspecting and you're looking and then you're going, OK, but now that I know this flaw, I'm going to renegotiate this. And that's just if we go into our relationships that same way, it's, yeah, that's not a good solution. Contracts are always about self-interest. Anybody who's asking you to sign a contract, they're in it for them, not for you. They're protecting themselves. Self-protection is the word that I'm thinking of. Self-protection. And then covenants are about sacrificial love.

And there's always language in there, too, like, again, the self-serving side, like to protect yourself in it and to make sure that there's, like you're saying, that there's an out and that there's it's always self-serving. It's never about, oh, how is this benefiting the other side of the table? And so I think that's what is so beautiful about a covenant marriage is that, no, this is it's mutually beneficial. Back to the submission conversation, too. It's something that God designed specifically to be in together. Of course, I agree with the covenant idea philosophy, but my guess is there's people that are listening to this right now going, OK, that sounds great on paper. I understand it's a biblical idea. I may not disagree with it. But right now, it's not fun. Right. It's it's it's hard. I'm in that I got to choose this season. And then there are times, too, where you're in a good marriage. But it's still kind of stale. All right. So let me ask you this question. What do you guys what do you think covenant marriage looks like in seasons where if you're just going to call a spade a spade, you may not necessarily feel in love. It's not as exciting as it used to be. Does that make sense? Yeah, because and I know, you know, Mackenzie and I have a great marriage. I love her. You don't want to be with anybody else. You guys are probably in that same category, too. But you're also real human beings. So what do you think? Y'all been married 39 years and there's been seasons where it's it's your favorite person and it's exciting and amazing. And then there's seasons where you're like, I need space.

So so what does that look like for you guys over the years? How do you keep covenant philosophy at the forefront every day, even when it's not exciting? Love is a decision. It's a decision. It's not a feeling. Feelings fluctuate. That's the problem with feelings. If you love your spouse with feelings, then sooner or later, some days you're not going to feel like it. It's like anything else. What other area of your life do you operate like this? Like, you know, I don't feel like stopping at the red light. Well, you better stop at the red light or you're going to have a wreck or you're going to get a ticket. Yeah, I don't feel like feeding the baby. Well, you better feed the baby because the baby needs fed. Yeah, OK. Nobody's going to feed the baby. So there are days, I'm sure, when Michelle doesn't feel like loving me with covenant love. It's just part of it, you know, because sometimes we're unlovely. No, no, we are. Yeah, it's true. Absolutely. Sometimes we're not always loving and we're not always feeling great. And so feelings fluctuate. Love is a decision. And you just have to renew that decision every day. I need to love this person unconditionally. Yeah. And sometimes we don't always succeed at that. Yeah, no, we don't. And there are days when, yeah, I know that I'm not easy to love.

There's days when I'm, I'm irritated at you. You're more easy to love than I am. Well, I'm not going to say that. I don't know because I think I'm not always loving. Because you're not very selfish. I'm, there's only one time you, the only thing I think of, I never answer the question when, the only time she's really selfish is when people take pictures of us and she will, and you look like a freaking gargoyle and she looks like a supermodel and she's like, this is the Christmas card? Yeah. Because that happens to me, too. Oh, well, it happens to, we all do it. We do. We all do it. Yes. I can look like a cyclops. Well, and if there's somebody in here that's going like, I'm not selfish. That's the test right there. You determine whether or not it's a good picture. If you look good, it's a good picture. It's going on this show. Yeah, it's a good picture. Sorry, I got us off track. But feelings fluctuate. Love is a decision, and that's just what you have to remember. And we base so much, people walk away from marriages based on feelings. But that's because they thought they had an out from the very beginning.

They entered into a contract instead of a covenant. And if you go into it with that attitude, then you're gonna easily go, well, you know what? I just don't feel it anymore. So you said the word space earlier, and it made me chuckle because it made me think about when we were living in Phoenix. So right when we got married. You had no space. Oh my God. No space. That little studio apartment you had. Yes. That shoebox. That was unbelievable. So we got married and finished college. We got married during college and then went to Phoenix for Landon's master's program and lived in a studio apartment. I think it was 350 square feet. Yeah, it was definitely under 400. In the desert in Phoenix with one wall unit. Yeah, and we thought right before we moved. And it was 120 degrees. We should get a puppy. So we had a puppy in 400 square feet in the middle of the Phoenix desert.

You live and learn. Yeah, very small. But it also made me think of we didn't have space to run away to. We had no family there. We didn't know anyone. We had no friends. Were you happy? Completely, yes. I wasn't gonna go to that part. I was gonna go to the times when we did. We were newlyweds. So it was like we would fight in this 400 square foot apartment. And then where do you go? There's nowhere to go. You can't go to the other room. Yeah, you're just looking at each other from the couch and the bed. And you're just like, well, just think of that. Yeah, there ain't no long hallways to walk down. No. That Nate Bargatze skit when he talks about that. When you're fighting with your spouse and you go down the hallway. You're like, that's messy. You don't live in a mansion. No. There's only a couple hallways.

Just the silent treatment. You're like, yeah. But I also think like what a gift that was, not to over-spiritualize it, but that God made us work through that season of, hey, yeah, you don't have anyone else. And you guys gotta figure this out together. And I've designed this season of your life to do that. And then we did another cross-country move. Thankfully it was a little bit bigger apartment, but still had no friends or family to turn to. Yeah, we bought a mansion. It was 1,100 square feet in California. Big step up for us. It was, I think I remember a video on the phone of like you doing a cartwheel or something in it. I did. Because there was room. I got off that, yeah. I lived on Cotella Avenue in Orange. I haven't done a cartwheel in a long time. Have you ever done a cartwheel? I think if you tried, mom would officially be out of the covenant because you did. Oh, wow. Hallie's learning right now. She could probably teach you. I know. She would like to see Papa do that. Hey, I want to talk.

Before we move on to another subject, I want to make sure we talk about this. Because one of the things that's happened as we started this podcast, specifically when we dive into marriage, man, there's been a ton of guys reaching out that are in very difficult seasons in their marriage. And the conversation of should we continue to do this? Should we get divorced? Should we separate? Is happening. Right, right. It's a real thing. What is the statistic in the US is 50% of marriages end in divorce. So, mom, you talk about contract, that there's outs. If you're in a covenant relationship, is there an out? If so, what's justifiable? What's not? And how do you choose to stay? Well, let me say this. We all have expectations that we come into a marriage with. So I think you have to really look at, okay, what am I expecting of this person? First, and then trying to figure out and lean into the Holy Spirit and to godly counsel and scripture and all those things. But then are there things that God allows for you to get out? Well, I think that, I guess to proceed that question, we have to remember that there's no marriage on the planet

that hasn't walked through hurt. So all of us have to go through hurt. Hurt is inevitable. Trouble is inevitable. Jesus said as much, you're gonna have trouble in this life. It's not an easy life. There are times when people enter into a covenant and they just simply break the covenant. And they break it and they aren't interested in being in covenant love anymore. And so there are levels of abuse. There are levels of adultery that get to the point where you realize I'm in a covenant love, but it's a one-way covenant and there's no such thing. And so there are concessions in scripture around this, but I think it's good to remind everybody who's listening, there are concessions, but they aren't commands. That's a good word. Right there. And so I just, I'm not saying that, look, look, is there life after divorce? Clearly there is. We have many, I have two brothers that both of their first wives divorced. Right, Hannah, my sister. Our daughter, Hannah, her first husband. And now she's in a wonderful love relationship with an amazing man. And they have two beautiful sons and she has three beautiful stepdaughters.

And so it's beauty from ashes, right? Yeah, absolutely. It's 61.3, but here's the reality. We got to remember, it's not a command. And so we really need to try and not quit. Jesus says in Matthew 19, just to be clarifying, that when he talks about divorce, and he talks about marriage and divorce and what it looks like in heaven and all those sorts of things, but they ask a specific question. Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason? And Jesus does answer that question. He says, I'll tell you, basically, unfaithfulness is the only justifiable reason to divorce someone, okay? Now, he's pretty clear about that. I understand that there are probably some people listening to this going, okay, that's hardcore. Maybe there hasn't been that in my relationship, but I'm not happy. Things are very hard right now. And so I just wanna, I think one of the things I wanna make sure everybody hears and understands is in Malachi, it does say God hates divorce. But I wanna be clear, God doesn't hate divorced people. He hates the pain divorce brings. I think that there are countless examples in my life. Mackenzie, your mom and biological dad, you didn't know, right?

He wrote you a letter when you were three years old, and that's just about it. And yet, Kim, your stepdad, has become an absolute hero for you. So this isn't a suggestion to say like, hey, if you get divorced, your life is over, and God is disappointed in you. I don't think that's true at all. The reality is is the microcosm of sin is destruction and separation, okay? That's a real thing. And we live that out in our relationship. So how do you think if, let's say if you are divorced, how do you restart? How do you believe in good again? Yeah, I think something that is, there's a stigma around just marriage counseling and bringing wise counsel into marriage, whether it's you single, like doing that on your own or with a spouse or with your family or with your kids, if there's kids involved. And I think that's something that it's really sad to me that there is such a bad stigma around that, because I think it's something that God has truly gifted people with the spiritual gift of counsel. I believe that. I think that there's people that, especially Christian counselors, I think we have lots of ones that the church recommends, but I mean, that's something that we even went through

and we got marriage counseling. We got premarital counseling and have had it throughout our marriage at certain points. And I think it's so beautiful to be able to bring wise people into those things. But I think there's definitely, like you mentioned, like my mom, like there's hope after divorce. I think there's a divorce care groups that are great as well to walk through that with other people that have gone through that. But I think it goes back to something that you were saying earlier is like, it's like starting with yourself. Like you can't fix someone else and solve the problem of somebody else. Like you have to deal with yourself and really bring yourself before the Lord and the Holy Spirit and be honest about, okay, what do I need healing in this? Well, and what part did I own of whatever, and then work on those things and how do I heal it? And none of us are perfect. I think acknowledging your pain is huge. A lot of us go, no, I'm fine, I'm fine. And that's not the case. And you have to acknowledge it and you have to get help because you have to get healthy before you can move into another relationship. You have to, because you're gonna come in

with the same hurts if you've never taken care of them. So, you know, after divorce, there's some work that needs to be done. Whether you were at fault, if you wanna say it that way or not. Dad, what would you have to add to any of this? In terms of just the conversation around, okay, Jesus says the only thing I can divorce my spouse for is unfaithfulness, right? What about abuse? I mean, that's something that is a real thing, whether you're the person being abused or the abuser. Well, I think clearly the word unfaithful is a broad word. And I think forms of abuse are definitely forms of unfaithfulness. So there's definitely, obviously, the thing that hurts my heart, and I know it breaks the heart of God, is people that are in a loveless marriage. And I will tell you, I will say this, I'm trying to say this the right way. Some devout Christians have some of the worst marriages because they don't believe in divorce, but they still have a loveless relationship. And I'm speaking practically on this. It's just, it doesn't feel like covenant love, but they've got this kind of this, obviously, this conviction around, and understandably so, they got this conviction around. So that is a very, very difficult scenario. It's like, what do you do when your marriage runs out of love? You got to find a way to fill it back up again. And that is hard because the motivation needs to be mutual. Yeah, it can't just be one person. It's like there's mutual submission. You want there to be mutual adoration, mutual love and compassion and care. And so, man, you've got to both decide that you're going to work on the marriage.

That is one of the hardest parts of this because there's a lack of motivation. I love in Revelation 2, I've always thought that those first few chapters of Revelation land in where Jesus is writing letters to the churches and he says to the church in Ephesus, man, you've lost your first love, come back to me. Come back to me. Turn and do this. This is interesting. It says in verse 5, Revelation 2, turn and do the things you did before. And I just feel like somewhere inside the heart of every married man and woman is that passion that was there at one time and you've got to figure out a way to find it. And remember back to when you were dating and remember back what infatuated with you that person and figure it out. And that's what God is saying, man, whatever drew you to me the first time, man, do those things. I also think prayer is such a big thing that we can skip over and praying for, I know we've talked about feelings a little bit, but God bring those feelings back to me for my spouse and God give me opportunities to love my spouse. God give me like just practical prayers, talked about praying with your spouse every day, but what if your spouse doesn't want to pray with you every day or at all? Like I think going before the Lord and being honest about, hey, we're struggling, God, help me. I don't know what to do in this marriage. Please guide me. Please bring someone wise into my life that I can go to. Please let her be open to marriage counseling. Let him be open to counseling. I think there's, we just discredit prayer so much. And I think that's such a key part in all of this. You know, I think dad, you said this in a message. If you want the marriage you used to have, you got to do the things you used to do.

And I think that came from that passage in Revelation two. Is that right? It did. Talking about going back to your first love. You know, those moments where you did the, you're talking on the phone for four hours and it's you hang up. No, you hang up. Right now. It's like, I don't even say bye. Just click. And, you know, but man, I just think like, as I think the overarching theme of the Bible is, is God inviting people into the greatest covenant ever and us continually turning our backs on him. And yet what does he do? All throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament, he redeems it. And you can see that from like Hosea and Gomer. Like I think about that relationship, right? Like I'm going to allure her, I'll lead her back into the wilderness and speak tenderly to her. Like the golden calf, when Moses goes up on the mountain, right? And then he comes down and they're, they're worshiping the golden calf. And what does he do? He says, I'm a compassionate and gracious God. I'm slow to anger and abounding in love and faithfulness. Right? So there's this mercy conversation that happens. And so I think my encouragement to somebody that's listened to this is like, and mom, this goes back to your point. All you can do is control what you can control. You can control your posture.

You're not responsible for controlling theirs. Right? Your marriage will be as good as both of you decide it will be. And the key word is both because it's so hard. It's so hard. I, I think back to it, I love history and I love studying Winston Churchill. I've got a book actually written by Winston Churchill up in my office. And there was this, he had this political opponent. Her name was Lady Astor. And- Oh, that's a good quote. She said to Winston Churchill, if you were my husband, I'd put poison in your coffee. Oh, boy. And he said, if you were my wife, I would drink it. And so it's just this, like, I realize that there are some couples right now that are just at each other, and they're just, they just can't visualize their future together. And that's why I think you're right, Mackenzie. I think prayer is the first place we start if we really want to make it work. We're praying for miracles. Yeah. And to never give up. Well, and I think to go back to something that you said, Landon, when you were talking about the, you know, the different stories of Hosea and Gomer, and I mean, the golden calf,

now those were all imperfect people that were invited into that covenant. Right. So we have to be careful. I mean, as much as I thought he was the greatest human that I had ever met when we first met, I had to understand neither one of us were perfect when we were going to enter into that marriage. And I think we have this fairy tale sometimes that we set ourselves up like this is gonna be perfect. And then when it's not, when it becomes real, that's when we have trouble. And so I think it's praying, listening to the Holy Spirit. If you're a follower of Jesus, you have the Holy Spirit. And so listen to that still small voice that you have and just letting those things direct you instead of our own feelings. I think it's very small decisions at a time too, like you were just talking about. I think that it's in those moments when there is trouble, like, which way are you gonna go? Are you gonna keep going down that path of trouble? Are you gonna keep, you know, oh, my wife's doing this, so I'm gonna just stay out. I'm gonna go to one more bar. I'm gonna have one more drink. I'm just gonna send that text to the coworker really quick. You know, something made me think of her. Something made me think of him.

Like women are also at fault of this too. And I think it's in those moments where it is the Holy Spirit convicting you of, you know what, no, I do wanna fight for this marriage and I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna put the drink down and I'm gonna say I love you to my wife, even if I don't really feel like it today or she doesn't deserve it or he doesn't deserve it. But now's the time in those small moments where you have to make those decisions to fight for your marriage first. All right, so we're talking about covenant contract. Mom, you talked about how a contract, you know, there's different outs and loopholes. There's two people, right, in a contract that are bringing different things to the table to have an agreeable solution. Marriage is a covenant. If you thought, think about 100% of a marriage, do you think marriage should be 50-50? Or is that a bad way to think about marriage? And, you know, think practically, right? 50-50 financially, 50-50 for normal household responsibilities, who does the chores, who takes care of the kids, who picks them up from school, right, those are all real things that everybody has to face. What does it look like looking at marriage of like, hey, I'm gonna bring 50% of this, you're gonna bring 50% of this,

and if you're not holding up your end of the bargain, what do you do? Well, that's a terrible idea. Talk about a fairy tale. It sounds good on paper. It does, it sounds like, yeah, that sounds fair, that's what it should be, but it's a terrible idea because there's some days when I don't have 50% to give. Yep. There's some days when I'm like, I just don't have it. I've only got 20%. Well then, what happens? I better bring 80% then. You better. Good math. And so I'm just saying 50-50 is not realistic. I mean, that's a contract. That's like, okay, we've written out, these are the rules. Divide it up. And that's not gonna work. I also think there's, yeah, there's just days that you need the other person, that's why it's a covenant, and it's, what's that Brene Brown quote too, she talks about this, where there is no such thing as that 50%, like it's not possible. No. Well, contracts are built on reciprocation, right? I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine,

you do your side of the bargain, I'll do my side of the bargain. You're back to contract level when you're doing 50-50, in my opinion. All right, so what do you do though, if you feel like you're carrying all the weight in your marriage? You have a conversation, like I think you sit down with your spouse, and if you have feelings and you're frustrated, I would say, I know girls, I know guys don't talk about this as much, but girls, it's like, well, I'll just bring this up at girls' night and see what other spouses do, or see what, if their husband does more work than my husband, or I'll just get a poll of the group, and I think that's really dangerous, goes back to that comparison game, because you have no idea what's going on in there. marriage. So just sitting down, having an honest conversation, lean into the awkwardness. It's way better to be honest with your spouse of like, hey, I'm really struggling in this area or I could really use some help with the lunches. That's really simple or with drop-off this week because I have X, Y, and Z. I think that's also hard with stay-at-home moms. Like we sometimes feel like we're doing everything but we don't want to ask the husband for help because we know they're trying to provide and so we take on this all of the home responsibility. And I don't think that's fair to the husbands who want to help or want to be available when they can. And so making sure that you're not creating some imaginary, you know, fairy tale of a marriage and oh my spouse doesn't want to do this. They don't want to get up in the middle of the night

with the baby or they don't want to pack the lunches. Like have you asked? Like have you just asked for help? And starting with there and being honest with your spouse I think is important. I think that if you want to initiate change in your marriage, the key to that, and this is gonna sound very churchy or biblical or whatever, which is great because it's good in the Bible, is man demonstrate sacrifice to your spouse. There is nothing more winsome or endearing than someone who is sacrificing for you. And when you realize that if you have the love of God in you and if you love that person you'll realize this person is sacrificing for me and I've got to do my part. There's nothing more compelling than that. There's nothing more repelling than harshness and pride and competitivism. And so it's so compelling when someone loves you with sacrificial love and I think that's the way to start. When I know that you're loving me with a sacrificial love, I know that you've seen me already. Sometimes you don't have to say anything because he's seen the situation and he's gonna try and help. Other times it's not that he's not willing. I just have to say, hey I'm really, for whatever reason, I am struggling here. And so I do think we have to be careful who we talk to to go back to your point. The girls at girls night, I mean it's a great conversation but it's probably not the best conversation to have. The most honoring. No, it's not. So we've got to have the right people in place and we probably should start with the one that we're in that covenant relationship with. I know there's a lot of couples too that just have like monthly check-ins of just like we're gonna go through, there was even that marriage checklist from our series, like we're gonna go through these four questions every single month. And even if it's been a great month, we're still gonna go through it to make sure that there's not anything that we need to just talk about, get on the table. I got one more question before we leave because we're running out of time, all right? What do you, and this is a, this is a, everybody gets to answer, okay? What do wives wish husbands understood more clearly? And what do husbands wish wives understood more clearly? Speaking from my own life, I know that there's a lot of

things that consume my mind and my time that don't seem like a big deal to you. Like, where's our kid gonna go to school? And are they eating enough vegetables? And is, and all those things seem really silly, but they're like a very, you know, big deal. Is our home a safe place for them? Is their teacher gonna pour in so I'm gonna get emotional? But like, I think those things, especially with our kids are, I mean, I think about them like nonstop. And so just when you sit with me in those moments, I think that's like really important of just like, hey, let's talk about these things and what, yeah, what are you feeling? Because I know feelings can fluctuate, but they are really important to women. And sometimes we just need to process them and we don't need you to solve them. We just need you to sit and listen, like we've been talking about, which is really hard, but helpful. Well, and that must be the answer of the day, because I really was going to say something along those same lines is like, if I'm struggling with something and I decide to share it, his nature is to fix it. And I'm like, I don't need you to, I don't need your solution. I just need to know that you've heard me and that you're not making light of it because that's what it comes across at. If I'm feeling this way, if I'm worried about whether my kid is eating enough, you know, vegetables, he's going, are you kidding me? You know, we'll just give him more vegetables. I'm like, no, it's a bigger thing than that. And so sometimes. It's, I need, we as wives just need you to sit and not make, if you go straight to fixing, it's almost like it makes us feel like our problem is not worth hearing. Yep, so I think it's just listening and sitting in it. Well, I guess I would want my wife to know just how, this is gonna sound almost emotional and not as practical, but I just couldn't, I really, I definitely wouldn't want to do life without her. And she, I mean, I'm not trying to go all Jerry Maguire

on everybody, but she completes me. And I'm just so thankful and grateful. And I guess I just would want her to know how thankful and grateful I am that she's part of my life. And I just don't feel like sometimes we communicate the most important things to the most important people. We just assume they get it. And I want her to know on a daily basis how significant she is in my life. I think that's a great answer. And in a similar line of thinking, what I would say to the question of, what do I wish women understood about men or wives understood about husbands is at the very core part of my heart, what I'm looking for and what I want deep down is I wanna be sure that my wife respects me. And I think Paul talks about that in Ephesians 5.33, right? It says that husbands must love their wives. And what does it say in return that the wives must respect her husband? I think he's very intentional about that word choice because deep down the longing of like my soul is to know that the partner that I chose to be a part of this covenant relationships, man, I have her respect. And the truth is, it's not to say I don't care what anybody else thinks of me. I don't think that's true at all. That'd be an overstatement,

but her opinion of me matters the most, right? Second to the Father, God and heaven, I wanna know that my wife respects me, that she knows that I'm working hard, that I'm bringing value, that when I leave the home and go to work, I'm doing something that matters. I'm gonna be a great father to our children, a friend to the people that God has put in my perspective and purview, and I'm gonna make a difference on this earth. And at the end of the day, ladies, if you're listening to this, man, go out of your way to tell your husband that you respect him. Not because he needs an ego boost, but because I actually think like it's a biblical dynamic that feeds his soul and your home will be better if you do that. If you do that. All right, guys. Hey, we're out of time. And I really appreciated doing this. Thank you so much for being here, everybody. You guys were fantastic. I really appreciate, ladies, thanks for coming. Maybe we'll do this again. And as always, Dad, it's- We should do a parenting version sometime. Yeah, parenting would be great.

And Dad, thanks so much for being here. It's always good to ask you questions. So awesome to be here. All right, everybody. Hope this is helpful. We'll see you next time. See you guys. Hey, thanks for joining us on the Gaining Ground Podcast. If you enjoyed today's content, it would help us a ton. If you could like this video, click the subscribe button and turn on your notifications so you never miss an episode. If you're looking for more resources or how to get connected, please feel free to look in the description below or find our website, gaininggroundmen.com. We'd love to connect with you there. We'll see you next time.