46 Years Of Marriage Advice In 53 Minutes

This is going to be awkward and hard and weird. The best thing you could do is pray with your spouse. I think that was some of the best marriage advice we got to before we got married in our premarital counseling was praying together, and especially praying together when you're mad at each other, which is even more uncomfortable and awkward and frustrating. But to be reminded you're on the same team and you serve the same God who loves both of you and as mad as you are together, hold each other's hands and pray. And it is frustrating, but you also realize, okay, God, we need you in this. And it doesn't have to be eloquent. It doesn't have to be beautiful. But he hears them, so why not start there? It's conversation. Yeah, yeah. Welcome back to the Gaining Ground Podcast, where we're all about helping men grow. My name is Landon, and I'm very excited about today's episode. If you've been listening to our podcast, you know that usually I have my co-host, who is also my dad. Hola. Drew Sherman. But today we have two very special guests. We're going to talk, and I think it's actually going to be a two-part episode, about marriage and relationships. So whether you are married or you are single or you're engaged, you're dating, or somewhere in between all of those categories,

I think this episode will be helpful to you. And I would like to introduce you to our two very special guests, who actually are, by the way, I think I could say my two favorite women in the world. I do have two daughters as well. I do have two daughters as well. And a sister. But these were the first... Well, yeah, but I mean, you know, I mean, she's probably fifth. Yeah, I think... Sorry, Hannah. I'm just kidding, Hannah. I love you. I love you. But how do you... Sorry, sorry. I can't imagine she would expect to be anything. Yeah, that's fair. She's not listening to this anyway. Anyway, you think she listens to us? I think she is, yeah. Well, part of the reason we're doing this is because even though this podcast was for men, we've had a lot of women listening. It's kind of funny. They've been secretly like whispering, like, I listen to your podcast, which has been great. So without further ado, I would like to... Hang on, I don't want to do this. So let's talk maowidge, the dweem within the dweem.

I don't understand that reference. It's from Princess Bride. What do you mean you don't understand that reference? How do you not know that? I don't... I mean, I haven't seen that movie in a long time. I'm just telling you, there's a bunch of dudes right now dying laughing. This is going to be pandemonium. Uh, my mother, Michelle. Hello, how are you? As my dad would call her. The lovely. The lovely. And then next to her is my wife of 10 years, Mackenzie Sherman. Also lovely. Also lovely. Thank you, associate. The lovely junior. Okay. We're going to dive in all about relationships today. And, um, I really feel like this episode is going to be incredibly helpful. Um, as mentioned, wherever you are in your relationship journey. So, uh, most of the time we're going to speak from the context of, well, our context, which is currently married. Um, we've obviously met before we've dated before we were engaged before. And now, uh, we're trying to have a God honoring healthy marriage. I always like to start off with a question. We have a guest, you know, it's typically kind of a get to know you question. And because, um, we're all married. One of the things that I learned about my marriage very early on is that just like when

you had roommates before you were married, maybe when you were in college or, you know, maybe in your young adult life, there are certain things about your roommates that you absolutely love. And then there are some little things that drive you a little bit crazy. So I want to start with a fun question. And I didn't prepare any of them for this. No, you sure did not. I need, and you can answer for your spouse on behalf of your spouse. What is the most annoying thing they do around the house? And then what is one of the little things, what is one of the little things they do that means a lot to you for starting with that? What is one of the, cause we just want to be real guys. Like we all have it right. I had a roommate one time that used to put his dishes, not in the sink, not on the counter, but like on the lip of the sink. Right there. Like he balanced it. And I don't know. Yeah. I don't know why. And he drove me nuts. It's funny that you brought up dishes because that might be something that I would start off with. I feel like we've all talked about dishes a lot on this. So which one is that for me? I'm not saying anything about dishes. I'm going to clear that up for you. You took some heat that you should not have taken. Because, I mean, you don't always, you don't always do the dishes, but you do your part. I do my part.

You do your part. Exactly. The other thing I don't understand is why mom didn't jump in to defend your honor in the Instagram comments. But anyway, that's fine. Okay. How would you answer the question? So you make breakfast all the time. This is the good thing or the bad thing? This is probably the bad thing. I would say. Sorry to start negatively, but it's not really that bad. But when you make breakfast. all the time, which is great. A big breakfast, some would say, like bacon, eggs, lots going on. And sometimes when you make eggs, not sometimes, all the time, you eat the eggs and then you just like leave the weird stuff on the like edge of the pan, like the crusty eggs, and it just sits there all day. And I get home and I just look at that pan and I just think, wow. Kind of like when Landon uses my grill and never cleans it. Never cleans it. Never. Yeah. But we, I love eating the food. Listen, I'm sorry, you don't even know how to turn on the grill. Okay. Like, I don't, look, he makes delicious meat. He does. Absolutely. It's just he never cleans the grill. Wow. Anyways. Last time I cook at your house. So that would be my next. I'm not saying anything I want you to know about that. But you do definitely do the dishes, the other dishes other than that one pan all the time, which I really appreciate. Well, I would say that I've actually stopped eating as many eggs because I hate the cleanup after eggs. It's terrible. I can tell. It's absolutely awful. It is the worst. All right. So then I'll just go ahead and answer. And then mom and dad can answer. I would say that Mackenzie does an absolutely amazing job at like, like little moments and little things like right before I leave for a trip. A lot of times there's like a note or even like for our kids, she does that, like, like it's Valentine's week or this time we're recording this podcast. And so there was a big poster in our house that said, you know, mom and dad love you and had a Bible verse on there and

it was all pink and had hearts and stuff. Just little things that I would never think of in my entire life that she does. That means a ton. The thing that maybe is not as favorable. She loves to cook pasta. She loves to cook pasta homemade. So we don't do ragu sauce in our house. We've got to make the pasta, which means we have to blend it all. But traditionally, now that we, you know, got back from Italy, it's the sauce. And I don't know if you guys knew this or not, but food processors have 7,000 parts and we leave them on the counter so that they can, if you're watching on YouTube, in quotations, dry. And sometimes they stay beyond the point of drying. So neither here nor there. How would you answer that question, dad? About mom? Yeah. Oh, mother's perfect. She doesn't do anything annoying. That's 30 something years. How long have you been married? 39. Actually, I have two things she does that just annoy the crap out of me. And there's a million things she does that's amazing. But you're going to start negative. Well, McKinsey did. She kind of started that trend. So two annoying things. She puts so much lotion on at night. Like it's unbelievable. Like, and I like, we like to like kiss a good night and I'll kiss her good night. It's like hen's oil kiss. Like kissing an oil can. I've got a lot to, I gotta put stuff on my face. So much lotion. It's ridiculous. Secondly, she does look great. Secondly, all the supplements. I mean, if I had, if I could only have the money that we spend on supplements, we could go to Italy, like four times a year. Because it's just every day, like you go in what's there's Amazon packages and is there something for me? Let's maybe. Nope. Nope. It's dandelion capsules. You know, it's actually, they help with water retention and inflammation. Oh, maybe you should start taking those, you know, and it's like dandelion. You're talking like those little yellow things that are in the grass. It's in a capsule. It's in a capsule. I mean, I still take Flintstone chewables. No, you've kind of graduated to gummies now. Yeah, you've done that. Okay. So those are the two things annoying. Gosh. Just the amazing thing. She's just an incredible person. Everything you do for me, she puts, you know, I mean, you put me first in the house, but there's only two of us. So, but it's just, she's amazing. She's a dog. She is amazing. Mom, how would you answer this question? And I'm looking forward to this answer. Yeah. Well, I will also start negative since that seems to be. I did ask what's the thing that drives you crazy? We need to be honest. Probably the thing that I still am amazed by is just the moment his eyes open, he has words. And I am not ready to have words at whatever time it is in the morning. And I mean, so early, it does not matter. This morning, I come out of the bedroom and you've already been up for two hours and I got up at 615. So it's not like I've been missing you for two hours. But I did not need words at 615. I needed a minute. And they just, and it's always like what he's been thinking about. He's ready and I am not. I come in a little hot. Yes. So that is.

That is a really, yeah, it's not good. But I also would say that you always do, you just try and make life easier for me. You find ways to do that. So you're really good at that. You're like, can I help you do this? Can I help you do that? I'm very thoughtful. You are. Just ask you. Just ask you. I just remember like after we got married and we got married pretty young, I think we were 22. You know, I'd been just coming out of a season of living with a group of guys in college and they did some stuff that I liked and then some things that drove me crazy. And then I got married and I didn't realize that I'm like, oh, she does some things I like and then some things that drive me crazy. And so that's why we started that with that question. So goal today is to have a real honest conversation about relationships. And so I want to start before you guys have been married 39 years, we've been married 10. How did each of you actually know you were ready to get married? Because that's a question I get, we get all the time, right? And especially when I was doing like youth ministry stuff and some people get married in their 40s and their 30s and their 20s. And for you guys, I think you met when you were teens, Kenzie and I even before that. So how did you know you were ready to get married? What did that look like for you? You know, I just think we'd been dating for four years. Like you just said, we were 15 and 16 when we. And we grew up in a different generation.

We did. That was the big thing. So it was kind of like it was a, not an expectation. That's not the right word, but it was more common. So we had been dating for 15, 16 years. More common to get. Since we were 15, 16. More common to get married younger. Yes. Yeah. So we were 19 and 20 when we got married. In our day, if you were, you had 16 and you, and you dated four years, your parents were most likely saying, why aren't you getting married? Right. What's wrong with you? Yeah. It was different. And if you do that today, it means somebody's pregnant. Exactly. I mean, it's like, what? I don't understand. Why are you doing that? So, you know, we had been dating for four years and so, and we knew early on, you know, this is who we want. This is who I want to be with. And it was just seemed to be the right time. Yeah. I was tired of my roommate. I played basketball in college, like small college, but I played basketball and I roomed with basketball players.

Ozark Crusade. What are their mascot? Crusaders? Ambassadors. Ambassadors. Yeah. No, they weren't Crusaders. They were just always ambassadors. Always ambassadors. Like Paul being ambassador? Yeah. There we go. But I got tired of rooming with the point guard. So Michelle was so much more beautiful. Yeah. But no, you know what? I knew early on, honestly, I knew our first date that we were going to get married. That's when I knew that. So sweet. But I'll tell you one funny story, a great story about your grandpa. I brought Michelle home for the first time to meet me and people. And it was pretty late when we left the house, 10ish, 1030ish. And I had to drive her. We lived about almost 30 minutes apart. It was not close. And I drove her home. And so when I got back, it was almost midnight and my dad had to be up at 5 a.m. to work. And he was sitting in a recliner waiting on me. Which is pretty uncommon. He wasn't a helicopter parent.

Very uncommon. No. He had no curfew. I mean, that was very, very few rules. I said, I walked in, I'm like, Pop, are you okay? And he goes, here's the thing. He goes, look, I think you got no shot, okay? No. Yeah. He goes, I think you got no shot. But he goes, if you can make this, if you can pull this off, it's the greatest upset in relationship history. That's awesome, man. I loved him. Thank you so much. For so many reasons. I miss that, dude. And I pulled it off. Yeah, you did. 39 years. Here we are. 39 years later. That's what I'm talking about. Right. He'd be so proud. That's amazing. I would say that you knew that you were ready to get married before I was, for sure. That's true. For sure. Yeah, that was fun.

If you don't know, we grew up together. So when the Shermans came to be the pastors at Highland Meadows, then my family attended here. My mom was on staff. And so I met the Shermans in, what were we, second grade? I was seven years old when we met in the parking lot. Yes, I remember that day. Very, very young. I can still see you sitting there greeting us all as we came in. So sweet. So known each other forever, but didn't date until college, dated for a little bit, broke up. And then the night that we got back together, I just remember you looking at me saying like, we're getting married. Like, I know I'm not proposing right now, but just so you know where my intentions are, we're getting married. And I was a 19-year-old like, oh my gosh, I don't know that I'm ready to get married. What in the world? But I loved your confidence and knew that you were exactly what I was looking for. Yeah. Exactly right. And so I feel like the prompting of, okay, this is a God honoring relationship. We knew we had spent time apart and missed each other and got healthy and got counseling and had a lot of wisdom around our relationship, uh, knowing that, okay, this is, this is God honoring and we're going to do great things together. I want to address that real quick. So you guys talked about your generation with you guys being, well, you're late fifties, late fifties, 60. Okay. Definitely not 60. Uh, late fifties, Mackenzie and I were in our early thirties. Um, look, uh, when I was, I was 21 when we got engaged,

22 by two weeks when we got married. And I would say I have full confidence that there were a lot of whispers going on behind our back when we decided to get married or to our face, uh, when we decided to get engaged and then married. And here's what they were. They were well-meaning people. Some of them, even Christians going, Hey, um, you're really young. Are you sure? You know, is this a mistake? Are you ready? And people can't even put it in like a Christianese language. You've got to be the provider. Are you ready to do that? And I want to say something that my guess is people will probably disagree with. I think a lot of Christians are listening to worldly marriage advice and we need to stop because the world's marriage advice sucks. And the world's marriage advice leads to failure and divorce. I'm not suggesting by the way, that all Christians have perfect marriages. That is untrue. But if you, if you read and believe what God's word says and the old Testament and the new Testament about marriage, here's where I went. I was at when I was 21. Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't I? It was going to be harder for me to pursue holiness, to pursue purity. And quite honestly, I want to get stuff done in my life. She was going to help me get stuff done in my life. What does it say in the book of Genesis? The woman is the helper. And I think that's the real dynamic. And I got no problem telling people that now some people like, like were we young and stupid when we got married? Yeah, but we were young and stupid and knew Jesus and did it together. I remember the young, I don't remember the stupid. Well, I think we did some, my point is, is in the world's eyes that wasn't stupid. I don't remember. In the world's eyes,

we were young and dumb and had no business doing what we were doing, but we wanted to pursue Christ and we knew we wanted to do that together. And so if you're listening to this and you're single, dating, engaged, married, man, I just want you to know, like it can almost sound cliche, but if you and your wife are pursuing Christ together, your chances of success in your marriage go exponentially high. And I know, and I know, and I know there's lots of yeah, buts going on in the heads of the people that are listening to this because of their specific situation or circumstance. But we're going to talk today about how to pursue Christ in your marriage and, and how that affects the two of you. But before we talk about that, I want to talk about, we talked about the pursuit of Christ. Let's talk about the pursuit of each other. Okay. And now we've talked to kind of pre-marriage, how you got married. Now I want to talk about marriage. Okay. Dad, mom, what does pursuit look like for the two of you? Five, 10, 30 years down the road for the people listening to this right now that have been married for a long time. How do you two pursue each other to keep your marriage healthy? I think, I think pursuit is the key. You have to remember it's, it doesn't, you don't just pursue when you're dating. I mean, that's where it first starts, but once you're married, you can't stop that. And so it, it comes in different forms. It may just be, look, we're going to choose to have a date night. And so we're pursuing, we're getting, we have a goal. We have something to look forward to. It might be just, it's just really, truly, it's just entering into whatever he's doing, whatever I'm doing. We try to be a part of it and be not tuned out from the other. So it's so much easier now because we're empty nesters and everybody who's listening is an empty nester. For us, it's easier.

The hardest time was when the kids were young. You guys are in that season. That's when you have to really get more intentional about your pursuit. Are you talking just because schedule, like if we want to go out, we got to get a babysitter. We got to do all that. So it's so much more red tape. What strikes me about this is that it's amazing. Like when you, when you think about when you're, when you're dating someone and you're in love with somebody and you're about to get engaged or you are engaged, how often did you go one week without a date? Never. Like never, not one time. You write each other little love notes cause you don't know. how to say hard things, do each other, you know, stuff. I'm so amazed and just like, it boggles my mind how many couples I talk to here at our church, and I'm sure any church, where people say, yeah, we haven't had a date night in a year. We haven't been at, we haven't had an overnight trip in three years. What did you just say to me? Yeah. That is foreign territory for us. And look, obviously it starts with putting God first and pursuing God first, which I thought that's where you would go first, but that's fine. Putting God first, spouse second, but like you can't have unity without pursuit. Right. Right.

You can't have one flesh without one focus. Yeah. So. Yeah, I agree with that. I think the, it is so much harder at this stage and knowing that like, okay, we are gonna have to get babysitters and honestly the financial aspect of it too, just to be honest, like we're young and trying to be wise with money and resources. And there's a lot of pressure of, okay, we have to go to make this big fancy thing. But I think some of our favorite date moments are even just in our backyard around a fire pit once the kids go to bed and really intentional. I think you're really good at this. Like, let's not have the TV on. Let's go outside. Let's sit on our back patio. We'll make a fire. We'll sit there and just talk, like be intentional with your questions and don't just zone out to the TV cause you're exhausted and you're so tired. Well, it's easier to do that. A hundred percent. It's easier to not pursue sometimes. I mean, you know, it's- A hundred percent.

You're kind of like, I'm tired, I don't- You gotta fight for it. All the time. You have to fight for it. And that's one thing that, and I'll give you an example of how we just recently did that. And by the way, it may not look like this for you. And I want to acknowledge that. Mackenzie and I just spent seven days in Europe. We've been saving, planning, preparing for this trip for the entirety of our marriage, 10 years. And we have a four and one-year-old. And in the same way that there were people whispering about us when we were getting ready to be married, I know there were a few that were going, oh my gosh, they're leaving their one-year-old for seven days. And- With us. Yeah. She was nine. So what's to worry? They did not miss us at all. Well, but here's what I told her in Paris, I think we were. And I just want to say, I think guys, by the way, I think this is your job to lead this out. Okay.

That's my belief. I told her, I said, look, we have built into a couple of organizations, a great church, friendships, our kids. For the next seven days, it's not selfish to build into us. Yeah. Amen. All that other stuff, those plates are gonna keep spinning. Yeah. They're gonna be there when you get back. Didn't that give you freedom to go, okay, I'm in. And let me give you a backdoor compliment on parenting. You guys are doing an amazing job with the girls because in seven days, they never brought you up one time. No, I will say this, they talked about you, they talked about you, but they weren't, like I can't function without them. I'm okay. I'm secure. I know, yeah. I think, I mean, it's such a great, you brought this up at one point too, like I wanna be sure we're modeling to our kids how important your mom, like I am to you and how important you are to me. And I think that's something that gets missed too of like, yeah, that's why, that's another part of going on dates.

It's another part of getting up together and going to church together. It's another part of getting little gifts for your spouse or writing notes is like setting that example for our kids too. And I mean, you were, you're spot on again, like it is your, you have to lead in that because I never would have booked those tickets because of all the logistics and finances and all the different things that would have gone through. And you know- Yeah, I just booked them, said, hey, we're going this week. I've already booked them, I already bought them. Yeah, eight months in advance. So we figured it out. All the, yeah. Yeah, and I think that's- Get all the details figured out. Super important. And obviously, I mean, someone else at this table did a lot of the trip planning and finding the childcare and all those types of things, but you did a great job booking the tickets and made us get on that plane to go. But you know, it sounds practical, but it's true. Man, if you would step up in this area, pursue your wife and kind of take the lead on this, you have no idea what a blessing it would be and what delight it would bring to your life.

It's incredible. Well, and by the way, it doesn't have to be seven days in Europe. No, just something small. And there's a lot of barriers. Here's the point. You have to keep pursuing each other, okay? That is a real thing. Okay, what's the enemy of gaining ground? It is drift. Drift. Drift. Okay, if you're looking at the beach, I always get a marker. I'm looking at the blue- 10 minutes later, you're 10 yards to the right of the blue tent. 10 minutes after that, you're 20, then you're 30, then you're 40. Why? Because there's a current carrying you. That can happen in your marriage too. It is really, really, really, really, really, really hard to pursue your spouse if you are not pursuing Christ. Because some days, another level of real here, you don't want to pursue your spouse. Right. Right. Guess who encourages you to pursue your spouse? Christ, the Holy Spirit of God. Hey, so you made a statement earlier. I want to talk about God first, spouse second.

There's probably some people rolling their eyes right now. Yeah, duh. What does that actually mean? What does that look like for you guys? Well, I think that, first of all, I would say this, that I know there's some of you men that are out there and maybe you follow Christ and your wife doesn't. I think that's possible, right? That is really, really a difficult thing. And then vice versa to some women that might be watching and your husband doesn't follow Christ. But when you're both following Christ, everything else falls into place. And when I have people ask me about that, how do I put God first? I always tell people, don't overthink it. And then here's why I say that. To me, I've always felt this, and I've just always felt this, He's an easy God to love. Right. Okay. Well, I mean, what other person gives me new morning mercies every day? Yeah. Other than my wife. Nobody else. Yeah. Maybe mom. Yeah. Maybe. Unless you start yapping the moment your eyes open. If I make a mistake in the office or at church or whatever, the next morning people are going, Hey, why'd we do that? What'd you say that?

Why'd you say, you know, but every morning God gives me new mercies. Lamentations three. And so if I put God first and love God first, then He will give me the desires of my heart, which is this woman right here. And so to me, and the fact that we, she puts God first too, we have the same goals. And so we're automatically, we've got that automatic alignment. And that really is a game changer, I think, because God kind of becomes the guardrail for you in that. And, you know, it's like, okay, this is the one that aligns us correctly with him and so therefore then that bleeds over into our relationship. Um, you know, so I, I'm, I think that is a game changer. I get it wrong all the time, but God still pulls it back into a right relationship. So man, as I'm thinking about this and, and, uh, just, okay. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Fruits of the spirit. Here's what's real. I don't want to do any of those. In my own right. Right. Right. It's really hard for me to manufacture patience. Okay. You guys know that because you are three of the people that know me more than anybody. And I could go down that list. Love, joy, peace, patience, you know, that's all hard stuff. Unless you are connected to the divine. That is a fruit of the spirit. You've got, you've got to be connected to the source for me to have patience in my marriage and days where I come home and I don't want to be patient.

I can't make myself do that, but my submission to Christ leads me to that and gives me the ability to do, to have patience, to have love, to have joy. What are some of the practical things? I think that's something that's difficult to, or like, yeah, I do want to be connected to the vine, but what does that look like? I think you do that really well, like on your drive home and even before you enter the house of like, okay, I'm going to pray before I walk into this house. Cause I'm exhausted. What are some of the practical ways that we can seek God first? Well, I think that the, the first one that comes to my mind is obviously you've got to have a personal faith. Um, I know there are guys listening to this right now that are growing in their faith and I thank God for you. Um, the amount of guys that came up to me after our first gathering and said, man, this is the first thing I've ever done in my entire life, uh, on my own, like without my wife and man, you give me energy to keep this thing going. Um, cause it's a lot of work. Um, this is going to be awkward and hard and weird. The best thing you could do is pray with your spouse. And again, just like I said, you got to be the one that booked the vacation. You got to be the one to say, Hey, what if we prayed together? Okay, listen, if you can have sex together, you can pray together, okay? Don't worry about not knowing what to say. Don't worry about getting the words wrong. The very act of being able to pray with your spouse, and I'm talking whether or not you hold hands or hug or you're in the same room or the same car, whatever, and you pray a short prayer of, God, I need your help today. She's got a meeting. I've got a meeting. The kids are going crazy.

We don't know what to do. We lost our job. Don't have money for the mortgage this month, or God, thank you for everything you've given us in our life. I promise you, if you start to make that a habit, and by the way, I'm not saying you have to do it every day. Sometimes, maybe you do, but don't go months without it. Don't go weeks without it, okay? In moments when you're frustrated, when you're unsure, when you don't know what your next step is, go before the Lord together, and I promise God will honor that. He hears our prayers, for sure, and it doesn't have to be eloquent. It doesn't have to be beautiful, but he hears them, so why not start there? It's conversation. Yeah. I think that was some of the best marriage advice we got to before we got married in our premarital counseling was praying together and especially praying together when you're mad at each other, which is even more uncomfortable and awkward and frustrating, but to be reminded you're on the same team and you serve the same God who loves both of you, and as mad as you are together, hold each other's hands and pray, and it is frustrating, but you also realize, okay, God, we need you in this moment, whatever we're going through, we're not going to get resolved of this without God. And I think there's such beauty in that because if you are speaking to the God of the universe about this is what I'm mad about, this is what I'm hurt about right now, he already knows. Absolutely. But something about the exercise of saying it out loud and saying, okay, I'm asking you for help, I don't know what to do, then it produces a posture in your heart and your spirit that's ready to receive that help, and then you're on the same page too. So it's vital. I feel like you do a great job at this in the mornings when we do have little kids running

around and they're coloring on the walls and on the fireplace and they're spilling coffee and they're doing all these things, and we're both trying to have quiet time and be in scripture and read. I think it's important to model that for your kids, but also to encourage your spouse to do that. So sometimes if coffee's spilling and things are crazy and you got up early and you already had your quiet time, you're great about like, hey, give mom a couple of minutes, I'm going to go take the kids in the other room and, or cook breakfast or help them get changed or whatever it may be. So I get an extra five, 10 minutes to just sit with scriptures. One thing I think we've learned and you model super well is like, I just want to say it's all right if your Bible turns into a coloring page, because that means it's open. And so if you got little kids and they're climbing on your lap and you're trying to read, I'm pretty sure God's going to honor that time spent. I think that's pretty consistent with everything I read in the New Testament about what He cares about. And I think it delights Him when He hears those little ones even just say the word Bible or say His name, then I mean, that's all that, I mean, you know, you've done the right thing. You have, God will honor that for sure. I want to talk about a word that is, well, it's, it's a cuss word in most, in most riots when you get, everybody's in on your marriage series till you start talking about that word, this word. You know what, you know where I'm going with this, Dad? Are you going to talk about submission? I want to talk about submission. I want to talk about submission. We should have all said it together. Because there's been a lot of, a lot of preachers that have said some really dumb crap about submission and a lot of people, and a lot of men, I think specifically that have used this to be manipulative.

And so there's a longer conversation for another day about submission, right? But what does it look like to submit to one another, okay? And this comes from a passage of scripture in Ephesians chapter five, okay? In Ephesians chapter five, if you're listening to this right now, Google this passage of scripture and read this as, as we're talking about it. So what do you guys think it means to have, you know, mutual submission without keeping score, mutual submission without keeping score? How do you do that without it turning into a competition or silent resentment? So I have always, I've always looked at submission is when you graciously allow something to go someone else's way rather than your way. That's good. That's a good definition. Did you make that up? Wow. That's brilliant. Graciously allow something to go someone else's way rather than your way. If you do it that way, and that's a biblical, to me, that's the biblical spirit of submission. It doesn't have to represent anything other than honor. For sure, and I think, to speak to your point, Landon, I think, unfortunately, there's a lot of people, whether it's churches, whether it's a spouse, one way or the other, that has abused it. But it really is a beautiful thing, and if you can rest in that and realize that my spouse, he will graciously allow something to go my way rather than his way, and it's mutual, we submit to each other, then it's a comfortable and beautiful place to be.

It doesn't have to be ugly, and it doesn't have to be that word that everybody hates. Yeah, I think that's exactly right, and there's so much of that mutual, having open and honest conversations about it, too, of like, hey, that doesn't mean to submit quietly or to submit without expressing your feelings or your thoughts or your emotions, ever. I think it's very much having those conversations, but knowing, at the end of the day, husband's the leader of our family and of this household, and there are moments that I'm called to submit to your authority, and that's biblical. It's biblical, I mean, it's what we're told to do. But the reason it's a toxic word, son, is because I would submit to you mostly, I think men have misused submission, and so they mistook it to mean like dominion or more authority than what should be merited or what would honor Christ. Or my opinion matters more than yours, it's not that. I've seen the word, I feel like a doormat, and that is, I can tell you that kind of, that misuse of submission absolutely breaks the heart of God. Absolutely. Okay, so where this comes from. Ephesians chapter five, Paul writes, you know, it's so interesting to me. You've got all these guys that are looking at verse 22.

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. And they use it as like a, hey, I'm in charge, follow my lead. Okay, verse 21 says, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Right. You don't see that verse read much. Yeah. Okay, then a couple of lines later, 25. Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word and to present her to himself as a radiant church without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. Guys, first of all, Paul says, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Okay, because we love Jesus, we what? We allow something to go somebody else's way. Not because I'm strong or smart or love, joy, peace, or whatever the, no, no, it's because I love Jesus. Also, by the way, what did Christ do for the church? Died for it. Died for it. So how about you get the order right before you start trying to puff out your chest and try to be like the man of the house? No, you follow Christ's example and be willing to die physically,

but also symbolically every day. Like you die to yourself out of reverence for Christ. And as you do that, you become someone worthy of being submitted to. This is a gradual process. It's an obedience and a decision to, I'm gonna submit to the Lordship of Christ so that we can model the dynamic and principles that God has laid out for the home. Yeah, what Paul demands of men, honestly, is much more intense if you're just honest. He's asking women to humbly submit or serve or support their husband, but he's asking men for total sacrifice. So it's intense. Well, it requires a ton, and I think it can be intimidating for men because there's no way I could ever live up to Christ. Okay, yeah, right? That's why we have them. That's why we have them. And I've seen some marriages that were done for, done for, be resurrected because a man decided, I'm gonna get to the end of myself and I'm gonna submit to Christ. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that can happen for you if you're listening. Yeah, and as a wife too, I think submission comes easier. or is more intentional when we do see, hey, my husband is praying about this decision,

is fasting even, is having conversations with God about maybe big life decisions that are gonna mean a lot for your family and what does that mean on your end as the wife, as the mom and the sacrifices you're gonna have to make. And so knowing that, hey, my husband sought the Lord first and he's feeling convicted in this and you know what, okay, I'm gonna do that as well right alongside you and we're gonna move in the direction that I believe God's calling you, which is super hard. Right. Hey, we've got a part two that's coming up in this marriage conversation and I think specifically we'll focus on in part two about sex because I know it is a hot topic for a reason, right? I think it's the thing that Satan uses probably the most to twist and divide and so that's coming in part two that'll be released in a little bit. I got two more things for you guys on this episode that I wanna talk about. There's a statement that I read, complacency creeps in quietly and then all of a sudden it's your reality, right? So you don't decide to get complacent, it just happens. You drift, right? Whether it's with work and with kids and you spend time scrolling on the couch and not having conversations. How have you seen that show up in your marriage

and what are a few things that you try to do to fight against it? I think all those things are that you just named. I mean, it's so easy to sit with your phone at night or with the TV on and never connect with each other. I mean, that's an easy way to drift into it. There's nothing wrong with doing those things but you need to have connected first and you can't let that be your normal, like, hey, we don't even talk to each other anymore. But I mean, you have to communicate. Communication is just a key to all of it and you are so good at planning something ahead for us to look forward to. So therefore, if I'm excited about what's coming, even if it's just, hey, we're gonna go to whatever restaurant tonight and have dinner, I don't have time to drift because I'm looking forward to something too. I have thoughts, but I'd like to hear McKenzie's thoughts first. Yeah, I think that honestly what comes to mind is the postpartum season. I think just being out of that season, I remember that was super hard because I don't feel great about myself physically, emotionally, mentally. I'm exhausted. You're exhausted. I mean, I'm still exhausted,

but I think having that season is really difficult. And unfortunately, we have a lot of friends that have drifted during that season. It's a very real thing. And I think you're right exactly that Satan uses those times of self-doubt and all that to work in and to speak lies. And so I would just say, like, especially to the husbands, if your wife is in that season, the more truth that you can speak over her, like sending her, you even sent me like scripture some days or even just speaking encouragement over her and telling her she's beautiful and that, like anything- Doing a great job just acknowledging what you're seeing. Yes, 100%. Acknowledging the weight that she's carrying in so many different ways is a huge thing that just kind of combats it. That's the key. Men, listen to me. Part of mutual submission is mutual admiration. You have to continue to admire your spouse and encourage him or her. This is so crucial. I hear people at our church constantly, well, he's not the man I married and, or she's not the woman I married,

or it's just not like it used to be. And I wish I had my old life back. And let me just tell you something. If you want the marriage you used to have, you gotta do the things you used to do. That's the problem. And so with mutual submission comes mutual admiration, daily encouragement, right? And also stop worrying about their weaknesses and you worry about your own gaps, okay? When you address your own gaps, that's a catalyst. If you address their gaps, that's a conflict. So these are so important to guard against complacency. Landon, you and I talked about this in the consistency episode. If you haven't watched that, I recommend it. Transformation happens when I do consistently what others do occasionally. And couples, successful couples learn to do things consistently. what other couples do occasionally. That's really good. Man, that was a good line. Thank you for that. And, you know, look, I want to finish with this. And again, like I told you, there'll be a part two of this because I think this will be really helpful for some people. We got people listening right now that are in marriages that are doing great. They got hard moments, but for the most part, they're happy.

Probably some folks who are in the middle of a marriage that just feels stale. But they're sticking in it. And then there are those who are in a war zone. If you could go back and tell yourselves one thing, being those kids and got married, you know, the age of 12 or whenever y'all got married. 19. I was 22, I was old, okay? I was 21. If you could go back and tell yourselves one thing, what would it be? And maybe that will apply to some folks, regardless of where they are. What would that be? I think I wish we would have one. I mean, if I'm going to look back, like this is what I wish we would have done sooner. We kind of, we have a mission statement for our marriage now. Oh, that's good. And I think that was, it's important. And really it's just a verse of scripture. It's Colossians 3.14. That's our mission statement. Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, you clothe yourselves with compassion and kindness and humility and gentleness and patience. And you bear with each other, you forgive each other. That's our mission statement.

And I think had we done that sooner, because we all come into every relationship, whether it's marriage, it's dating, it's even friendships, we come into it with certain expectations. This is what I expect from this person. And if you haven't set that up at the beginning as like, this is what we're working towards, then you're gonna be disappointed. Even with a mission statement, you can, because you're human, you're gonna miss here and there. But if you at least have the thing that you're working towards, you may save yourself some heartache. So I wish we would have done that sooner. That's good. If I could talk to the 20 and 19 year old Drew Michelle, I would say, guys, learn, learn, learn to be unoffendable. Learn to be unoffendable. One of the things I've noticed about Jesus, and this doesn't get mentioned very often, because we talk about his humility and his gentleness and his compassion and his mercy. If you study the Gospels, you study the life of Jesus, he's unoffendable, he's unoffendable. With the occasional exception of just stupid religious people, which is a whole another podcast. But I think that I wish I wasn't so ouchy in my earlier years. And I wish I had a little more thick skin.

Because this is hard, marriage is not easy. So learn to be unoffendable. Don't be so offended all the time. Well, I think that also applies to the scripture that says be quick to listen, and slow to speak, and slow to become angry. It's funny, that's the scripture I thought of when you were talking about dad waking up and saying words immediately. Yeah, maybe I should start quoting that. This is what she does. I'll be talking early in the morning, and she's like. Listen, when you guys get going on stuff, it's really hard to keep up. Honey, what would you say? What is your, what was the one thing you would say? I would say, I feel like early on, I don't know that you did this, I did this. I compared our marriage to people all the time. To my siblings, to my parents, to you guys. Oh, you gotta be a better pastor's wife. I gotta be a better this, that. I gotta be, I gotta provide more for our family. I've gotta, and it's just so much pressure that was just unneeded and unnecessary. And I think it's something as simple as our first year of marriage. I'm a really bad cook. If you don't know this, I don't like to cook.

I never have. You're getting a lot better. I don't think you're a bad cook. Guys, wow, you're making sauces. You're making sauces. Okay, but I. They're not simple meals, but they're good. Anyways, early on, I thought, you know, every night I have to have dinner ready for Lynn and when he gets home. Yeah, you hadn't got the sourdough kick yet, which is unfortunate. But I thought, you know, early on in marriage, I thought that was the expectation. Like as a wife, you know, I look through social media and all these women have just these extravagant meals and there was just so much pressure. And I remember like, I mean, we were in college station, so it was very early on in our marriage. I remember you just sat down and you said, babe, why don't I, I'll do the cooking this week. I'll do the cooking. You've got a big week and I don't know that you've ever stopped cooking since that. week, which is great. No, and it feeds my control issues. So it's, you know, it's probably not all healthy, but it's good. It's perfect. But yeah. So I think just like releasing that comparison, I mean, again, scripture

says comparison is a thief of joy. And so knowing that, like, that's not what God has called you to. So knowing that everybody has different roles and different ways that we provide for our family and provide for our spouse and knowing that comparing yourself to what other couples are doing, you have no idea what's going on behind closed doors with them. And so it's releasing that comparison. Comparison, I think is a lie that the enemy uses that he, I mean, our hearts will believe that hook, line and sinker very easily if we start comparison, comparing ourselves. Yeah. What would you say? Man, and I'll wrap up with this and, and I hope this doesn't come across superficial, but I think it's got a deeper meaning. I'm going to at least try to find it. Marriage is good. You know, and I think people at least believe that once. Yeah. Uh, it's fun. It's really fun. Right. You, you do this because you, at one time you were thinking, this is the, my favorite person. Right. I want to be with them. Genesis. What does it say? It says that God looked at Adam and Eve and said, this is good. Before then it, it wasn't enough. It's good.

And what I learned in 10 years of doing this, you got to fight for good. You got to fight for good. And by the way, you got to believe it's good. Yeah. Even when it's hard to do that. Um, there's a lot of stuff you got to look at internally and do some self reflection that search me. Oh God, I know my heart. Psalm 139, David praise that prayer. I think that's true for every area of our life, but it's good. And I, and I would, and I'll wrap this thing up with this. Your marriage don't have to be perfect. You could be in the middle of crap right now, but it can be good again. And you both got to decide that that's true. Yep. You got to decide that that's true. Uh, thank you for your time, everyone. Uh, mom, well done. Thank you. You did wonderful. Thank you, honey. You were outstanding. Way to go. Way to go. Maybe you can be on again if you play your cards right. Wow. What an honor to be on the boys podcast. We should do a parenting episode. Oh, we could. Sure.

Yeah, that'd be fun. We could, we could. How difficult is the parent middle children? Oh, bummer. Look, I'm not, I'm not suggesting that I was not difficult to parent. It's because I have ideas. And beliefs, highly intelligent, strong willed and brilliant. Anyway, how do you deal with that? Brilliant. I kind of hate closing. Thank you so much for listening to the gaining ground podcast. We hope this has been helpful as always. Please, please feel free to reach out to us. If you guys could, you could like, and subscribe on this podcast, this episode, wherever you're watching from YouTube, Spotify, Apple podcast. So it'd mean a ton as we want to continue to get these messages out. Thank you so much for your time and we'll see you on the next episode.