I went to PRISON…& got uncomfortable with GRACE! | ft. Jake Bodine, God Behind Bars

So I go in there and there's this big gymnasium, and you know, it's really, there's probably 250, 300 guys in a lot, and I meet this individual. He's the first guy I met in prison, and we set up chairs together, we worship Jesus together, and he was just an awesome guy. That you could tell had a transformative experience with Christ. I Google this guy's name, and I'm on an American Airlines flight, I'll never forget it. I had to work through a few different things in my theology. Number one, what is grace? And how far does it go? And what does it cover? Man, how does that person, that individual, deserve any sort of freedom or relationship with Jesus? That's a toil in my heart. But that's where God works in me daily. To say, hey, I look beyond all of that, and I look at the person, and he's a child of mine, and I still want to have a relationship with him. Even if I disagree, even if that sounds absolutely insane, in my mind, I have to accept that Jesus still wants to have a relationship with that individual. And so I've kind of gotten out of like, what is this person done? What are the mistakes? What are the sins that are on display? And how do we just get to the heart of what Jesus wants

to have with each and every one of these individuals behind bars? - Well, welcome back to The Gaining Ground podcast. It's always so good to have you guys. What we're all about, helping men grow. My name is Landon, and it's an honor to be here today. And as always, I am here with my co-host Drew. Dad, how you doing? - I'm good. - Yeah. - Ready to get 1% better today. - That's right. And I'm excited about today's guest and conversation. Today we're gonna talk about grace. We're gonna talk about what it really looks like to follow Jesus, and how over the last three years of my life, God has done something surprising by putting me in front of a population of people that I probably never thought that I would be involved in. - I mean, your mom and I thought there was a shot. You were gonna go to prison. I didn't know what to be at this manner. So, I mean, I'm actually pleased with this outcome. - Yeah, people told me it's either prison or pastor. - Yeah. - And so, I guess- - I kinda did both. - I did both. - That's a cool flex. - I did both. But our guest today actually invited me to be a part of

some amazing things that God is doing behind bars. So, today on The Gaining Ground podcast, I'm excited to have you here from Jake Bodine, the CEO and founder of God Behind Bars, an incredible prison ministry that is reaching, this is a real number, millions of incarcerated individuals, both in the United States and soon to be around the world through what God is doing actually physically inside, meaning churches are participating in this. God Behind Bars is doing events all over America, bringing light to dark places. And then also is the founder of an app that a lot of people don't know about. And I think it's one of the best kept secrets in all of Christianity called Mando. It was a result of COVID, how to reach people when it was hard to reach them. The world was shut down in lots of different places. It was especially shut down in prison. So, this individual's name is Jake Bodine. He's become a great, great, dear friend of mine and is also somebody that I get a chance to work with. So, everybody, welcome to the podcast, Jake Bodine. - Appreciate it, man. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me. - Man, it's an honor and I'm excited for today's conversation. I think it's gonna be probably insightful. I think everybody's gonna learn something today,

but then also really challenging. So, Jake, you've been leading God Behind Bars for 17 years. Can you explain to our audience? And some of them might be familiar with GBB and then others are perhaps not. Tell us about God Behind Bars. Why does God Behind Bars exist? What is it and how did it all come to fruition? - Yeah, well, great question. I have grown up as a pastor's kid my entire life as well. And very similar, I think my parents thought I was gonna go to prison. - You know, we could have been in prison together, Jake. - Which I guess we are. - Yeah, yeah, we are together. - Once a week, probably. - But yeah, I grew up in Las Vegas, rowdy kind of lifestyle, played football. My entire youth was pretty good at it. I felt like I had a good shot at making the NFL. I had a great group of friends around me, all different cultures, walks of life. My senior year of high school, Oxycontin became very prevalent within our school system to where I think one in three kids at that time were taking Oxycontin. - Geez. - It was a epidemic, to be honest with you, in Las Vegas. Only thing that kept me out of all that was my love for the game of football.

And I focused on training in the off season and obviously football in the regular season, but some-- - What position did you play? I don't even think of every aspect. - Yeah, I played strong safety and running back. - Okay, I can see that. - I was pretty darn good at both. I was pretty fast. - Did you like hitting people? - I loved hitting people. - I was probably what made me not the best running back in the world. - 'Cause you just run straight out. - Yeah, I wouldn't try to avoid anybody. I'd just try to run them over. But yeah, I love to hit people. But more than anything, I got introduced to a group of friends and cultural differences that I probably wouldn't have been introduced to if it wasn't for the game of football. But some of my friends ended up in the addiction of Oxycontin. And I went away to play college football in one of my closest friends who had been addicted for a long time, caught a prison sentence and his family had reached out to me and said, "Hey, is there anyone at your dad's church "that can go and visit him? "Ryan needs your help." At this point in time, our church did not

have a prison ministry. And I just felt like God was putting it on my heart to reach my friends that were dealing with incarceration. And so it started with a conversation and visitation with them, which quickly grew into a passion to help them. And then as I was trying to figure out how to help them, I realized that there wasn't a ton of resources. And so I felt like it was my Isaiah moment where God was calling me to provide resources, not just to those that I cared about, but those that were beyond bars, or I'm sorry, behind bars as well, beyond my friend group. And I ended up kind of talking my way in through some connections in the launching a small group in one of the most dangerous units with inside the Clark County Detention Center. God put in my life a chaplain by the name of Don Moberger who had done prison ministry for 40 years. He was a 75 year old man at that time. And him and I started this small group together in what they call the J unit. And everybody in there is pre-trial for murder. And started with one guy who raised his hand when we walked in and said, "Hey, we're gonna do this group over here in this classroom. "You wanna join?" He didn't speak any English at all. And so I had to go back out into the main pod and say, "Hey, there's anyone that can translate." And another gentleman joined to translate

and then not quickly grew to about 30 to 40 people a week. And it kind of got outside of my scope at that time in my life. I was only 20 years old. So I just started wheeling in a TV and playing my dad's church on the TV in that small groups that they had quality spiritual content that they could engage with. And I was sitting there one day and I'm like, "Man, if we can launch these churches inside "of schools and college campuses and military bases, "why not be able to do it inside of a prison?" And so I spent the next six months of my life trying to figure that out. And on Christmas Eve, 2009, we launched our first church plant inside of a prison Florence McClure Correctional Institution. That has since grown out to about 86 of those church plants across the United States with different church centers. 87, but who's counting? 87. You would know better than anybody. (laughing) I'm looking at it. 87 church plants across the U.S. with different churches that pipe their service on an IMAX theater type experience inside of prisons every single week, send their volunteers. It's their DNA and they make a connection in a relationship with these individuals. And these people have a place to call home before they're ever released from prison. And I have an accomplice that their campus up in Allred,

like those guys feel like they're a part of Compass Church. Their family members are coming to Compass Church. And that was the entire vision along the way. It was kind of bridging the gap between incarceration and freedom and creating a pathway with Christ at the center of it to get the entire family unit involved and have a place to call home before they ever exit prison. Well, yeah, thanks for sharing that. And yeah, I have a chance to see this from multiple angles, right? And one of being a part of my home church, Compass Church, church that I get a chance to teach at and raise my family in. We're partners of God behind bars. And so this week I got a chance to go in and meet with some of the men that are our church attendees and to Jake's point. Yeah, they feel like because they are a part of our church. And really it's amazing. Dad, I want to hear your perspective on that too. And then the second seat is I get a chance to be a part of the church planning effort. And it is absolutely insane to see that the hunger for God behind bars. Jake, I've heard you say it before. When you talk to people about this, it's like planning a church in another country, like going to Africa or going to Asia and seeing a different type of hunger than a lot of times we see in the quote unquote free world, which is what I want to have most of our conversation on.

But I want to make sure to dive into this. Because I know that God behind bars does a great job of making prison ministry, [BLANK_AUDIO] I mean, there's a reason three million people are engaging with the social media channels of GBB, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, that kind of thing. And yet I know that there are people who are sitting there going, hey, wait a minute, those guys made their choices, right? Like, and yeah, I'm sure God loves them, but what does that mean for me, right? In the free world, what is my responsibility for caring for them? Well, can I say one thing? This is my first exposure to prison ministry. I mean, I just, you know, I mean, shame on me, right? But I just had never, I've never been a part of it. And so our church, you know, we have a campus at the, you know, James A. Allred unit in Wichita Falls and it's been unbelievable, but I can't believe the quality. And of course, you know, we're not just here to talk about God buying bars, but the reality is they're so amazed by the quality of the, you know, I don't wanna say production, but the ministry that takes place there. And I'm shocked, like I thought, I kind of thought, well, this would be great. They'll get to hear sermons.

They'll feel a little bit more part of, no, no. When I walk in that place, like, they're like, there's my pastor, you know. Like the first time I walked in there, I had a bunch of guys just come and like, give me big bear hugs and some of those dudes are big, man. And I was just like, am I okay? Like, am I okay here, you know? And I would, but then you like, they're like, my gosh, like they're so much up there. Every bit is part of our church is the person walking through the front door. - Yeah, it's amazing. - Well, and to that point, I think like, oh, I get asked that often is like, why do you guys need to do that type of experience? Why do you need to put that much money behind the equipment? And it's for that reason to show them that they are worth that. I think that for what I found at least when I was first getting started in prison ministry was like it was getting the churches leftovers. It was, okay, we've got a passionate group of people that wanna go serve these people. Let's create something so that they can go in and visit these individuals. But that was about the extent of what I was finding that the local church was doing behind prison walls. It was a couple of volunteers, usually like 60 to 70 year old women who had a heart for the underdog that were going in

and saying, hey, I'm gonna serve these people. They were doing it underneath the umbrella of their church, but the church wasn't resourcing it. And I think that they felt the value of that. I mean, meaning like they don't really care about us. It was almost like portraying hope as a mirage is what I called it. And so what I wanted to do was say, hey, you know what, we're gonna give them the best, the best experience that we would do in the free world for people when we're launching a campus. We wanna do behind bars so that they feel like, hey, we care about you this much. You're worth this much to us. - Right, Matthew 25. - Yeah. - They say when I go, I mean, every time there's somebody thanking me saying, thank you for giving us your best. We knew, we know who really cares about us and values us by how much you're putting into this. And it means a ton to them. - Well, and actually I wanna make a correction. Matthew 25, Jesus talks about, you know, he goes through really what I would describe as what it looks like to actually follow Jesus, what it means to be a Christian. He gives us a couple of different things. You know, I was hungry and you fed me. I was sick and you visited me. I was in prison and you came to me, right?

And then the verse you just mentioned, Jake, is actually in Hebrews 13. So I was mistaken about that. Remember those who were in prison as if you were in prison yourself. - I wanna dive into that because, you know, man, like the whole point of this podcast is that there are dudes out there who may identify with following Jesus or Christianity. But when it really comes down to it, what does that actually mean? What do you do? How do you have a fully alive faith? How do you not have a, you know, to use this phrase, a bumper sticker Christianity or a Southern Christianity where your mom goes to church that you went to church or, you know, you're in Dallas. So that means you're kind of grafted into this thing. - Yeah. - And yet-- - You got a fish sticker on your-- - There may not be fruit or even a know-how or if we're just gonna get another layer of honest, like it kind of is disinteresting. And then, I mean, bro, I'll just tell you, like I've been, I'm in another, I'm in a prison about, I don't know, two, three times a month, I would say minimum. And I meet some of the finest followers of Jesus. That I've ever encountered behind those bars.

And yet, they got there for a reason, right? There was some decision that-- That our nation has decided is something that we have to adhere to as citizens. And yet I experience spiritual freedom, not with all of them, but some of them are still knuckleheads. Yeah. But talk to me about that, Jake. What have you learned from people behind bars who are experiencing true and vibrant faith? And how is that reminded you like what Jesus actually calls us to? I would answer it two ways. Number one is that I think that prison is just a physical depiction of what many of us are dealing with spiritually, whether it be sin or addiction in our lives. Often I'm probably, I'm sure you guys have heard the phrase, like if the devil can't make you bad, he'll make you busy, the busyness of life, the hustle and bustle that robs us of our joy, of our peace, of our focus on Christ. And ultimately our faith becomes just checking boxes. Like oh man, if I just go to church Sunday and check that box, I'm a good Christian. If I just read the word to my kids a couple nights a week and pray for them, or pray at dinner, then check I'm a good Christian. And we lose the passion, we lose the flame, the relationship with Jesus of what he's trying to do in us daily, that 1% better, how do I get 1% better? Every single day in my relationship with Jesus, how do I lean into him in every aspect? I mean for me, I know like I don't sit there and pray, big elaborate praise our prayers and use big religious words, like I'm just trying to talk to God every second of the day. When I make decisions, like God, is this your vision or is this mine? Like it doesn't matter what part of life for my family, for my business, for my ministry, whatever it is. If God, is this your vision for this or is this mine? And having that conversation with Him and growing and looking through the lenses of how He looks

through people. And I'd say that the biggest thing that stretched my faith in doing prison ministry is because I'm a dad of five, I'm a protector by nature, always have been. In fact, like growing up, I said I was a bully to bullies. And sometimes those that are in prison, they were the bully. And so it's stretched me, I don't walk in there and just turn a blind eye to anything and everything these guys have done, it's stretched me, there's people that are hard to love behind prison walls, based on the things that they have done. But I have to get out of my own way, I have to get out of my own feelings and know that Jesus still wants to have a relationship with them too. And that's probably the thing that has stretched me most in my faith. And that's the tension point in the controversial point. But that's where God works in me daily to say, "Hey, I look beyond all of that." And I look at the person and he's a child of mine and I still want to have a relationship with him. Even if I disagree, even if that sounds absolutely insane in my mind, I have to accept that Jesus still wants to have a relationship with that individual. And so I've kind of gotten out of like, okay, what is this person done? What are the mistakes? What are the sins that are on display? And how do we just get to the heart of what Jesus wants to have with each and every one of these individuals behind bars? Yeah, even if we can't find redemption in our heart, we know Jesus can be their redeemer. Yep, exactly. That's amazing. Let me go another level deeper and personal example here. So I've been involved with GBB for the better part in three different roles of almost three years now. And there was a couple of years ago, Jake, when you and Aunt invited me to go to a prison in Missouri for one of our church lunches.

And I wasn't on staff at the time and I'd never been in the prison, right? And so I remember getting that text and I look at Mackenzie and I'm like, "Hey, they invited me to go to a prison in Missouri." And she's like, "What do you think that's going to be like?" I'm like, "I don't know. I guess we'll find out." So I go in there and there's this big gymnasium and you know, there's probably 250, 300 guys in there. There's a lot. And it was loud and awesome. And I meet this individual, he's the first guy I met in prison and we set up chairs together, we worship Jesus together and he was just an awesome guy that you could tell had a transformative experience with Christ. It wasn't fake, it was real. And I can't remember who it was, but somebody gave me some wisdom, "Hey, don't Google the people you meet behind bars." Yeah. And I was like, "So immediately, what do I do when I get out of there?" I start to Google. Yeah, I'm like looking at their name tags and memorizing it and then I Google them. And I remember feeling angry like on multiple levels, like one of like at this guy, right? Like, how can you do that? And he was struggling with all kinds of PTSD and mental health stuff and anyway. And then also like kind of mad. that I was gonna start playing a role in God behind Mars. - Yeah. - And thinking, I don't know if I can do this. And really, almost getting the point of calling you and going, hey man, I'm sorry, I can't do this. And yet I had to work through a few different things

in my theology and open the Old Testament and the New and decide my answers to a few things. Number one, what is grace and how far does it go? And what does it cover? Number two, what is sin and what is the impact of it? And if you look in the Old Testament, sin is very clear what it results in, results in death. And there has to be a sacrifice in the Old Testament. And then you open the New Testament and you read the writings of Paul and then you hear Jesus talk about sin. He's very serious about sin. The last thing he says to people typically, even after he heals him is what? Go in sin no more, yeah. And then you read the writings of Paul and I read the wages of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. And most of us, and I think specifically American churches go, oh okay, spiritual death. And while that's true, you look at sin in the world, what does it cause? It causes death. Sin is why cancer exists. Cancer kills people. Sin is why murder exists. Murder kills people. The wages of sin is death, that's not a metaphor. And yet I read the Bible and based on everything that I'm looking at,

you go through all the 10 commandments and I'm like, oh, for 10. And you go, Landon, you never kill anybody, you never cheat on your wife. Okay, well, Jesus says in the sermon on the Mount, if you have anger with your brother, it's as if you have committed murder. - Yeah. - If you've looked at a woman lustfully, you've committed adultery with her in her heart. And yet there's this other piece that I think sometimes we again, de-emphasize that every time you'd screw up, if you've made Jesus your Lord, he's standing at the right hand of the Father and saying, hey, put that one on my tab. And so now, after, I would say 18 months of wrestling through that stuff, I walked through that, through those doors and understand that they might be physically incarcerated, but many times in my life, I've been spiritually locked up. - Yep. - And then there's the second half of that verse, Romans 6, 23, the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus, our Lord. And so look, God still enables governments to make decisions. There are still earthly consequences to sin. But the truth is, is there's no one that's too far beyond the reach of God's saving grace.

And that has been, you talk about spiritually stretching. Gosh, that's what it's been like for me. - Yeah. When I think going back to even Matthew 25, the separation of the sheep and the goats, like what I believe that Jesus is saying in that verse or that passage is that you cannot possibly love me if you don't love these people, which is really hard, I know. And I think that, but I think it's meant to be. That's why it makes it real and not superficial is when you can love people and you can do things beyond your physical capabilities or even emotional and spiritual capabilities. And you have to lean in in God and you have to look through the lenses that only he wears. It's the closest that I think that you can become to God. So, Jake, for the person that's listening to this and is thinking, okay, I've never been in prison and maybe they have, right? They may be out right now or, but they know they've got some dumb stuff they've done in their life. They've screwed up, they've sinned, we all have, right? - Yeah. - All of sin and will fall short of the glory of God, right? Talk to me about what you've learned from men and women behind bars, how to deal with shame. - Right, shame and 'cause they're walking around 24 hours a day, seven days a week with an example

of how they screwed up in the way of prison bars, razor wire, you know, getting told when to use the restroom, when to stand up, when to sit down, but for the man that's walking around the free world that feels spiritually chained. How do you break free from that stuff? What have you seen people do behind bars? - Man, that's a great question and awesome one actually 'cause I was just thinking about this the other day, like I think that the difference between them and us is that they truly live for an audience of one, like to the purest of that definition, like they live for an audience of one, it's no longer it's how he views them and how they want to look in the eyes of the Father, what they wanna do to serve him completely unabandoned of everything else. They're not worried about their platform, they're not worried about their reputation. In fact, one of my great or favorite verses is how Jesus or how the Pharisees were explaining the disciples of Jesus when they basically label them notorious sinners. Like they were known for their sin, notorious, that's what they were known for, for their sin. And God chose those people to walk the earth hand in hand with and literally do his miracles in his public ministry. And I think it's just the heart of God and what God is trying to even express through all of that is it doesn't matter what they say, it doesn't matter how you feel, like when you're truly living for an audience of one, when you're walking hand in hand

with the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, is there anything else that matters? And I truly believe that these men and women believe that in their heart and they serve him every single day. Like I can tell you just even worship music in how it lands in prison versus how it lands when I'm at church on Sunday. - Oh, it gets wild. Like the lyric, I think it's the blessing. I might be wrong on this song title, but the lyric, like I have nothing else fit for a king. All I have to give is a hallelujah. - That's, I think it's gratitude. - Yeah, gratitude. - Yeah, okay. - And like song. - Great, so, but when you hear that lyric in prison, like that is all they have. They don't even own the shirt on their back. They have nothing else fit for a king. All they have to give is a hallelujah. And the lyric and what that means to them versus how we just sing it on Sunday is entirely different. And I think when I get to see the world through those lenses, like it takes my little box that I've put God in and completely just destroys all of those walls. And so yeah, I don't even know how to really express it in the words land and I truly don't.

It's something that you have to witness. - There's an experience. And dad, I'd love to know what you think about this too, but and honestly, I kind of feel like the spirit bringing this up in my heart right now. We talked, gaining ground right in itself is, there is a piece to this about getting better. And in order to be better, you have to give effort. I mean, you do have to try. This has to be not just a part of your life, it is your life. We talk about 1% better, you know, all those things. But I wanna be clear, this is not effort-based. You don't earn, like Paul's pretty clear in the epistles, you don't earn salvation. - Right, it's a gift. - At the end of the day, when I get to stand before Jesus, the answer of why he should let me in is in the third person, not the first, right? To reference that great Alistair Begg clip of the thief on the cross. Right, it ain't anything that I am. - And on the middle cross said I could count. - Yeah. - Preaching clips of all time in my opinion, but- - No matter how many times you see it, you still cry every time you watch it. - I still cry, and I could never preach it that well, because I, well, number one, I'm not as good to preach it as him.

And number two, he's got that accent that it's just- - I'm so intimidating. - I'm gonna be preaching and doubling at the end of the month in May. And I'm just like, what do I have to offer those people? - Yeah, well, you're not an Alistair Begg, that's for me now. - Yeah, I know. Sorry, bro. - My point in saying all that is this. Reading Bible five minutes a day is awesome. Praying with the kids is awesome. Cussing less is awesome. Putting down a bottle is awesome. Quit looking at porn is awesome. And yet to, and I mean this, this is not a pun. Your heart has to be arrested by Jesus, fully, to really do this thing. And that typically is a result of an experience with God. And I think what we're getting at is there are people who've had to come to the end of themselves because they have no other options. They have had to realize that the decisions that they made resulted them in a place that they probably didn't plan to be in. And so are they going to be miserable, grumpy, angry people the rest of their life? Or are they gonna figure out how to experience what Jesus says life and life to the full? But you know what? That's been one of the most amazing things

that I've been a part of. Just see how much joy those people have. Like I wish, this is crazy. But when I go preach their life, I wish that our people at Compass were as almost as excited about worship as they are. It's unbelievable how much joy is in their heart. I've been surprised about this. They'll tell you about their old life. But then they'll say, that's how it used to be. Yeah. This is how I am now. And I just, it's been such an incredible experience for us. And I remind our people all the time that this is, this is every bit as important. This is a, this is a campus we have planted. This is every bit as important. We were in Philippi three weeks ago at Northern Greece. And we, we walked through the amphitheater and we go to, if you've ever been there, it's the side of the, the Philippian jail. And so I got them all sat down, we're right by the jail. And I said, Hey, welcome to the first ever campus of God behind bars. And I said, here we are. Jake's mind a plane ticket to go film that video next week. Here we are at the first campus. Let me tell you what happened here. And I'll tell the story of the Philippian jailer, but it's, it's been such a man, it's been such a breath of fresh air for me to be involved in this. I'm so grateful and thankful and, you know, we're grateful for Compass Church. You guys, everything that you do, because honestly, it's not possible without y'all. And more importantly, the local church is the bride of Christ. And the local church not only deserves, but needs to be behind bars, serving these men, serving these women, showing them what a true relationship with Jesus looks like, because that is the only way that any and all of us find freedom. I just think it's so great because I feel like God behind bars makes us look good and in front of those guys. And then it, it makes them feel like they're valued and loved. And so I'm so excited. Let's talk about that. I mean, and I think that's kind of the whole focus of the podcast today is like, Jake, you just said a real relationship with Jesus. And for what it's worth, that's not Jake's idea. Jesus is very clear in the New Testament that there are people who traditionally gets, it gets categorized in like the common, common

terminology would be like relationship versus religion. And that's probably something that comes from the comparison of the Jewish Pharisees, which Jesus has pretty strong opinions on. And then the disciples and those who are following Jesus, you just mentioned notorious sinners are fitting in this category. We've talked about the thief on the cross and the Alistair beg thing. And you've got a guy who who was condemned to death, to crucifixion. And he, you know, he kind of has this last second profession of faith. He gets him with one second on the clock. And, and Jesus says, you know, today you'll be with me in paradise. And yet tells the Pharisees, the religious people, the smart people that knew all the Bible verses that they don't even know them at all. So and look, I mean, just a little interjection. Theologically, you have to remember, these guys on the crosses, they were not, they were not petty feet. These were big time gangsters. These were, these were murderers. These were, these were rebel. I mean, these guys were big time big, huge, huge. And also, you mean, you got to remember Brabas, right? Yeah. A criminal was released. So Jesus could be crucified. That's what the crowd chose. So Jake, let's zero in on that. Yeah. What do you think as you've led this thing for, for 17 years, and also been a follower of Jesus, right? In your own, and I know of you as a friend, like your personal relationship with Christ, your personal pursuit of Christ is more important to you than a ministry or a job. Tell me what you think for a guy. Think about a guy that's listened to this. What does it look like to have a real relationship with Jesus? I think it starts with comparison. I think that we often compare ourselves to others and say, you know what? I'm not as bad as that individual. Yep. And so therefore, we make ourselves feel better about where we're currently at in our life. And when you start comparing yourself to Jesus, you start to feel pretty gross pretty quickly. And so I think if you are going to compare, you compare it to the right person. And that's where it starts to kind of like cleanse you, cleanse your heart, I think. But the second thing would be like, what are your idols? And I don't mean idols in the sense of addiction, because I think that some idols, we've talked ourselves into that they could be great things. It could be fitness. It could be work and family. It has spiritual clothes on it. But like what aren't you willing to give up to follow Jesus? And I think of the rich man, right? When Jesus says, I want you to give up all your riches and come and follow me. Like Jesus isn't saying it's bad to be rich, but he knew the man's heart, because obviously only God is the one

that knows anybody's heart. He says to him. can you give those things up to come and follow me? Can you just worship me? And what did the man do? He walked away. He couldn't do it. And so what are the things in your heart? What are the things in your life that you aren't willing to give up to become the best version of yourself in your relationship with Jesus? I'd say start there because that's kind of what prison has forced these individuals to do is strip them of their idols. Not saying that people in prison can't have idols, I think that they still can. However, it has forced the majority of them to disappear because they are stripped of every possession that they have. And it is an inward look at their heart. It's an inward look at their mind and that they know from basically ground zero that their only hope is Jesus. And I think that is where you experience freedom. And I think that's where you experience relationship and no longer becomes about checking the box. It no longer becomes about man. Did we go to church Sunday or that or not? Like it comes to where I want to. This is a passion that I have to want to be in relationship with him every moment of the day and worship him and give gratitude and beyond just even the thoughts of man, look what I have done. No, look what he has done in my life and through my life. And so when you start, I think changing your perspective more than anything, but it starts stripping yourself of the idols and the things that you worship outside of him in your life. It's so true. One thing I've noticed and this is just and I taught this in a leadership setting just recently, I told a bunch of men at actually our first Wednesday and gaining ground. There's an inverse relationship between our level of competency and our dependency on God. And what I mean by that is the more successes we have in our life, the more wins we have, the more on top of the world we are, we tend to get less dependent on God. And what I've noticed is there that not that incarcerated men are competent, many of them are very intelligent and very wise, but they're not exactly on top of the world at this moment. And so I've seen them, they have a deeper dependency on God than the average person sitting in the seats. And that's just struck me. Well, where I saw that first, I remember I went to like Uganda when I was like 18. And I was reading the book of Matthew when I was over there. And Matthew chapter four verse four, it says, "Man does not live on bread alone, but in every word that comes from the mouth of God." And I realized while I was there, that's actually true for some of those people. Because they depend on God for physical food. Yeah. And what that does, to your point, Dad, is when your level of dependency is that high on God, his purposes and his plan, your heart's

affection for him follows. And I think for us, if it's real for me, may not be real for everybody. Listen, I've never wondered where my food was going to come from, not one time in my life. I just never happened. A lot of this, you know, because you worked and we had the ability to eat. And there were some times where we had more and sometimes we had less, but I never wondered where that was going to come from. And so my point in saying this is, we're distracted. And a lot of those distractions are good things. And I'm not saying this to you. There's a mirror, right? We're distracted to the point that sometimes we forget what matters most. And the truth is, I think God is pleased when followers of Jesus who love him go build and do awesome things. I mean, how great is it when we see somebody who's at the top of the world and their thing, whatever it is, sports, business, what do they do? The first thing they do is give God glory. And it's actually legit. You know, you can tell that it's actually legit. Man, that's so awesome. You know, a verse that goes along really well with this is, you know, John chapter three, verse 30, where John the Baptist says, he must become greater. I must become less. He's talking about Jesus. He must become great. There's one translation. He must increase. I must decrease. And I just want to talk to you men right now. If you're watching right now, if you're on top of the world and you're doing well and you're bringing in the money and things are going well, just remember, keep that dependency on God at that same level. Because there's an inverse relationship between our level of competency and our dependency on God. We can't lose that. We want to continue to Jesus has to become greater. We have to become less. Can I add one thing just as a practical step, like and why I think Matthew 25 is so important is get outside of your bubble. Yep. Like go feed. visit those that are in prison, clothe the naked, go to a third world country and join a mission trip and see different cultures and different circumstances that people have to live in. And I think that would help shape your perspective and ultimately your relationship. I think that's why it was so important to Jesus is, he knew that we were gonna live in a time like this. He knew that some people would have more than others here on earth when it comes to their physical needs

being met. And so to go and experience these experiences with people that are different than you, and I don't mean just show up to like a homeless shelter and put food on a plate, but go have a conversation with somebody that is in different life circumstances than you are, and I promise you that it will shape and form your entire perspective of God. And I said, I think it's just a practical step. No matter what you can possibly do to get yourself involved in one of those areas. And I know Compass Church has a thousand things that are opportunities that you can sign up for that you probably have said, that sounds cool, but you've never done it. Like I wanna encourage you to go and do that. Go do it, live out Matthew 25. That's a practical step on how you can begin to build that flame in your heart for Jesus. - Yeah, I can't amen that enough because it'll change your light. A great verse on this too, sign is Colossians 4, 5 and 6. Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders, making the most of every opportunity, let your conversation be always full of what? Grace, season with songs so that you may know how to answer everyone. Unbelievable. You know, I think as we finish this up,

there's just one thing I wanna say and then maybe another question for both of you. And I say this with a smile on my face, right? And you know, we joke around here sometimes I got a resting, angry face and Jake reminds me of that about twice a week. You know, a smile on my face, a smile on my face out of care and affection for everybody listening. But also I just wanna remind everybody, listen y'all y'all don't have that much time left. And I, what'd you look at me when you said that? Well, you know man, I've been meaning to talk to you about that, I'm just kidding. No, when I read the Bible, that's what I hear. And the truth is, 90 years seems like a long time to us. That's a long life, right? But in the grand scheme of eternity, it ain't that long. No, it's a puff of smoke. And yeah, that's what the Bible says, it's a vapor. It's a vapor. And what I take from that on a positive, not to put a positive spin on it, but because Jesus makes this sweet for us. Is your life counts and you gotta do something with it, man. And life is too short and God is too good and the kingdom is too big for you to waste your life, pursuing a bunch of crap that doesn't matter. And a step towards Jesus today is the best thing that you could ever devote your time

and attention to. And it's a stamp that you could put on your life that will change not only your life, but your family's life and potentially their eternity. And I've seen over the last couple of years, guys who are CEOs and professional athletes and kind of fit in the free world and have influence. And then also men behind bars who to Jake's point, don't even own the shirt on their back, come to the same conclusion that Jesus is better, that Jesus is better. And the truth is every single one of us, according to the book Philippians is gonna stand before the Lord, says every beat knee will bow before Jesus. And I want that to be an experience for you and for me where we tremble, right? Because God the Father is powerful and Jesus is wonderful. But we know that He's got our back, right? And that He's standing there giving an account for us. And I just, man, don't waste your life. Don't waste your life. And I think a lot of us, if we're just being honest, we are, right? And so guys, that's what I wanna close with is this, Jake, what is, if you have one piece of advice, and dad, I want you to answer this too, okay? One piece of advice for a guy that's listening to this podcast and who's trying to do the right thing. And everybody starts from a different place. Some of us have been in church for a long time

and we realize, wait a minute, I'm not as zealous for this as I probably need to be. And then there's other of us who never thought about any of these things. And we've been running around like crazy for years and years and years, but now we're trying to change. in his life, to gang around on their faith, to take some of the lessons that you've learned from men behind bars, how God has changed your heart, what would that be, Jake? I'd say be the tip of the spear in every area of your life. Obviously, the tip is the first thing that goes first. And I ask myself, daily, do my actions cause my wife, cause my children to want to have a passionate, deeper relationship with Jesus? Like, I don't want my wife to wish that I have a more passionate relationship with Jesus. I want my passion to radiate off of me into my family. I want to go first in every area, not even beyond just my relationship with Jesus, but with love and with respect and with honor. If I want to be respected, if I want to be honored, if I want to be loved by my wife, most importantly, but then my children as well, I'm going to love them first. I'm going to respect them first. I'm going to honor them first. And then I do that enough times, whether I get it back or not, I do it enough times. I promise you, you will see the dynamic in all of your relationships, but your first ministry, being your home, change drastically. And I think that's what these guys have inspired me with more than anything is that every day, no matter the circumstances, no matter the constraints, no matter the schedules, the lockdowns, the walls, the barriers that are placed around them in their life, they choose to go first. They have an entire population of people that want to see them fail or say, hey, you know what, this is just jailhouse religion or whatever, right?

And it doesn't matter, they ignore all that, and they still take a step forward towards Jesus every single day. And it's that 1% better. I just want to be 1% better every single day. I would say start with consistency, not necessarily intensity. You're not going to do it overnight. But these small daily practices, reading your Bible, right, praying. I would also say, man, get around the right people. I think who a man spends his time with shapes, what he normalizes. So you get around the right people and get away from people who are bringing you down and who are not pouring into you and get around serious believers. Isolation weakens conviction, but we grow stronger when we're around the right people. All right, guys, well, this has been a great conversation. I hope it was helpful to you. I hope it leads towards a more fruitful and vibrant pursuit of Christ in your life. As always, it's an honor to be here. Thank you, Jake, for being here. Thank you guys for having me. Thanks, dad, for being my co-host, and we'll see you guys next time. Hey, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us on the Gaining Ground podcast. If you enjoyed today's content, it would help us a ton. If you could like this video, click the subscribe button and turn on your notifications so you never miss an episode. If you're looking for more resources or how to get connected, please feel free to look in the description below, find our website, gaininggroundmen.com. We'd love to connect with you there. We'll see you next time.