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golf ball country mile, but don't know how to pray with their wife. Don't know how to guide their kids to following Jesus. Don't know how to read the Scripture. At some point, that cycle continues if we don't break it, man. For some of you, you've got to make the decision today that basically like spiritually, you're starting a new family tree. Man, if you're not sure what to do right now as a dad, I can tell you one thing you can do immediately every morning and every evening. Man, pray for your kid. Lift them up to the father and pray for them. One of the reasons we're doing this podcast is that we want you to be a great dad today and get better today. Hey, welcome back to the Gaining Ground podcast. My name is Landon. I'm your host. Grateful for you guys. Thanks for everybody that's listening. Today, we're going to have a conversation on fatherhood. And if you're listening to this at the time of its release, Happy Father's Day to all of you. And I don't know what comes to mind when you think of the word or hear the word father. Maybe you're listening to this and you are one. Maybe you're listening to this and you're not a dad yet. And you may or may not have even known your dad. And so there might be different emotions that come up or you had a dad, but now they've passed on. And so you're trying to figure out what it looks like to celebrate these milestones without the presence and the role of a father in your life. Maybe your dad was your best friend. Look, every one of us has a father story. Some are beautiful, some are painful, and most are a little bit both. And so I want to talk today about fatherhood from a couple different perspectives. First, we've got my dad, as always, my cohost is here doing all right, dad. I'm doing great. Good to see you, man. I'm grateful to talk about fatherhood with you. As you were a pretty good dad to me, I was hoping that you would say when you think of fatherhood, you think of awesomeness. Well, I do because you are my dad. And then we've got me, who's a son, obviously, but is now playing the role of a father. I've been a dad for going on five and a half years now. You are a girl, dad. I am a girl, dad, and I wouldn't want to be anything else. And then our guest today is a friend of mine named Josh Wright. Josh, I want to know, in your opinion, what do you think is the greatest error in sports mismanagement? And why is it the Mavericks trading away, Luca Donchitz, and not signing Jalen Brunson? Yeah. Yeah. I'm still in counseling over this. I mentioned it about one out of every four sermons about how the betrayal and the heartbreak and the devastation. I mean, is that the greatest back quarter of all time? If they both matured into who they are now, is it the greatest back quarter of all time?

I'd struggled to find a better one. The strengths and weaknesses just in the fourth quarter, who would you rather give the ball to in the fourth quarter than Jalen Brunson? We just proved it. I mean, Luca is the greatest first quarter scorer in the history of the NBA. You're going to start in end games better than anybody in history. I could go on and on and on about that. Yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah. That's the great. If you think, and we're talking about being a dad in this podcast, if you think that anything you ever did as a father was a bigger, dumber mistake than the Mavs made with Jalen Brunson and Luca Donchitz, you are out of your mind. Feel good about your stuff. Feel so good about it. You're crushing it as a dad compared to how the Mavs mismanaged this like once in a lifetime backcourt that they. Oh man, this is going to be fun. All right. Let's get into the conversation. Yeah, honored to be with you guys. And I just got to say, I get to watch your relationship at somewhat of a distance, but we're in meetings a lot together. And man, you guys do this well. You really do. Thanks for coming on. We're so glad you're with us. Yeah, honored to be here. So I grew up in a single parent home. My mom and my dad married right out of high school. I actually found out. I'm not spilling any old tea here. If my family watches this, they know this. But I actually found out when I was getting ready to officiate my mom's celebration of life ceremony that she was actually married before my dad for a year, which is a wild story. But anyways, so my mom and dad married right out of high school. My dad's father and big family, very unhealthy, very angry man. And so my dad dealt with that, wrestle with that, battled addiction. And so he was very abusive to my mother. I heard stories at a young age that really nobody should be hearing. And so when my mom, when I was one, my mom basically ran, took me, ran from, at the time, I think they were living in South Alabama, in town called Phoenix City. to live with my great uncle and his family. My sister, who's seven years older than me, she stayed back in Alabama to finish up the school year and the next year with my grandparents. And so, you know, single mom, honestly, I never met my father, my biological dad, until I was, I probably say 10.

We're in Orlando, Florida. We're in like a duplex apartment. And it's a Saturday morning. My mom worked late night. She was a bartender at the time. And there's a knock on the door. And I go to the door 'cause mom's asleep, open the door, this guy never met in my life. And he says, "Hey, it's Clara Jackson here." And I said, "Yeah, who are you?" And he goes, "My name's Willie." And I said, "Mom, some guy named Willie's here." And she said, "Willie who?" And I said, "I don't know, he said he wants to talk to you." And so she comes to the door and she says, "That's Willie right, that's your dad." So that's the first time I heard it. - That's how you met your dad. - That's how I met my dad. - Just how vividly do you remember that moment? - I mean, yeah, I think I have two or three actual memories of my dad. He's passed away now too. But yeah, I think, I'll never forget that. And I think it's not like because it impacted me in the moment. Like it really didn't impact me in the moment. I just went right back to playing Contra on my Nintendo, trying to kill the bad guys. You know, like I didn't really process it.

But looking back now and in hindsight, over the years as I've told the story, I'm like, "Wow, that's a wild way to meet your father." - Yeah. All right, so after that, you met Willie and the apartment door that day. Did he play any role in your life after that? - No, so my mom, you know, my mom ultimately, before she passed away, was married five times. And, you know, I think three out of four out of the five were the guys were abusive. I mean, she was just kind of a magnet to that, that sort of guy. In some way, shape or fashion, they were abusive. And so, you know, we moved back, eventually we moved back to Alabama. My mom, my sister came down for a little bit in Orlando. We moved back to Alabama with my grandparents and family there. And, you know, there was a short period of time where Willie got remarried and moved to the town that we lived in and lived on us, actually like directly behind my grandparents, which was wild because my granddad wanted to kill him. I mean, he hated him. - He hated us as his baby, you know? But even then, we had very little interaction, very little interaction. - Josh, how do you think?

I mean, so, right, dad's matter, fatherhood matters, you Google it, you'll find a bunch of stats. I could tell you that 'cause I've got a, I've got, you know, the presence of a dad in my life. And then I've got friends that do and friends that don't and it's affected them all kinds of different ways. How did, let me ask your dad now of tuba, how old are you kids? - 9/11. - Okay, so how did your upbringing affect you? That's a big question I know. And then how has it played a role into the father that you wanna be right now? - Yeah. I mean, how it affected me, I think. I mean, there's the obvious stuff, Landon. I mean, there's, you know, you're at bat and there's not a dad in the stands, you know? You get your first job, get your first car and you learn how to change the tire yourself, you know? So there's a lot of things that I felt other. If I could say that, I grew up in a very small town in Alabama and your last name mattered. It really matters in a small town. Your last name does. And it, you know, that sounds like a country song. It really, your last name matters in a small town. That sounds exactly like somebody ought to do that. So yeah, I mean, and that's directly connected to who your dad is, you know?

Your dad vouches for you. Your dad paves the way for you. Your dad is there. I didn't have any of that. And so obviously there's the pain of feeling other than that I grew up with. - Yeah. - But there's also the just kind of like, like, uncertainty. I grew up with a cloud of uncertainty around me. You know, uncertainty because of, you know, moms with guys that were just wild at times. Uncertainty because there were times we grew up with, I mean, like, like, I remember there's several times in my life where we were living in an apartment with no power eating out of a cooler with ice. - 'Cause you couldn't pay the like, 'cause we can pay the electric bill. - Or we're sleeping at a friend of mom's house. I'm on the couch, you know, mom's on the love seat or in the late, and it's just weeks or months at a time. And so there's this uncertainty of like, are we gonna be good? - Yeah. - There's also this uncertainty of, I mean, just that's just the basics of life, but there's also the uncertainty of like, you know, Is this what do I do in this situation? Am I going the right direction? And so to not have that for gosh, a large portion of my life, there's always kind of this, am I, am I right?

Am I good kind of thing there? So how's that impacted though? Like how you parent your kids? Cause obviously you're, you know, you, I see pictures of you guys at basketball games and all kinds of stuff. So how has that changed though? The way kind of father you want to be? Yeah, I think I'm, I'm learning more about that as I go, to be honest. I mean, I know there's like, man, more than anything in my life, I wanted to be a dad and, and part of that was, I mean, look, I, I think guys end up, most guys at some point in their life deal with the idol of self-reliance. Some guys deal with it because in kind of defiance to their father, they never felt like they were good enough. And so now they're going to prove dad wrong. Some guys have the idol of self-reliance because they want to make their father proud of them approval. Some guys live with the idol of I got it self-reliance because there was an absence of a father. And so for me, I kind of, I wanted to be a dad because I didn't have one, but then God redeemed that. And now that I actually am one, I'm noticing in real time, Oh, wow. I'm talking to my kid about a, you know, tension with his friends. He's 11. He plays Fortnite. They go at each other and I'm talking to my son with 10. I'm like, I never had this. Gosh, man, what would my life have been like if I'd have had this? And so it just makes me more grateful that I can be present in those moments. All those moments where I wish I would have had, I don't take for granted now that I am one.

Like I, it makes me want to be present, like really present. Well, I mean, look, I think part of the reason for this podcast is, uh, it's talking about guys, you know, taking ownership, making a difference in whatever their spirit of influence is some of them are dads, some of them are not. Um, some are in their twenties, their fifties, sixties everywhere in between. But I think one thing that, that needs to be said is there's probably not a more impactful relationship, at least in the first part of your life than your father. Um, I think maybe the transition is, is, you know, if you, if you get married, then you at least spend more time with, with your wife. But when it comes to the shaping of a human being, I mean, your, your dad is, is a big deal. And I mean, I can speak to that cause I mean, I'm, I'm sitting right next to mine. And, you know, dad, our relationship wouldn't always perfect, right? I mean, there's, we're, we're, we're, we're contrary to popular belief. We're normal human beings, even though sometimes it, it, it doesn't feel that way, uh, to, to people that are listening to this, right? But well, we're both fixers and leaders. So, and sometimes, yeah, sometimes that, that happens, but, you know, let me ask you this data, somebody who's parented for a while and now parents, adult kids, and leads a church of a bunch of people. Why do you think the presence of a father? Why does it matter so much? Well, I think, I think most dads sort of default to this idea that they want their kids to have a better life than they did. And so they tend to lean more toward experiences and stuff, you know, and, and, and so any opportunity they can and, and, and, but deep down, I don't think that's what kids want the most. They may think they do. They may react as though they do, but more than anything, they do want presence. And I think, I think, uh, they may not remember every gift or trip, but they'll

remember whether or not you were available and attentive and truly with them. But I think I think the reason presence is important, Landon, is that I think, especially, I guess we're talking a lot about fathers and sons. We're talking about fathers and daughters too, right? I mean, everything, all of that. Kids need emotional availability from their dads. Uh, I think that's what sometimes dads miss. Uh, it might not even just be presence, but it's, it's attentiveness and involvement and helping shape your kids' confidence and being able to engage with them and say, I see you, I'm with you. I'm proud of you. Yeah. And I think presence is everything. What do you, let me ask you this. Do you think did, did people do that for you? People is his grandpa name, uh, which I, I still think is, is the older I get the funnier that is to me. It's a great name. Yeah. People. Yeah. - That's a good one. Did he do that for you? He was more of a teacher than I am. I think maybe he tried to take a more practical approach to fatherhood, like today I'm gonna teach you how to change the oil. - Yeah, you didn't teach me to do that. - I'm really sorry about that. - I blew up a car because of that.

(laughing) - Yeah, my bad, that's fair. - I'm not blaming you, I'm taking responsibility for that one. - That's a little bit on me. I think he was more of a practical teacher. Today we're gonna, I'm gonna show you how to use an Allen wrench, you know? And I think I leaned more toward, I was trying to see where they were in every season and kind of make sure that they felt supported. I tried to make sure my kids knew, look, whatever worry you have, that's on me. I'm gonna worry for you, let me do that for you. - Wait a minute, say that again. Whatever worry you got. - That's on me? - Yeah. I tried really hard, and I know, I'm not saying that's even perfect because, but I think when kids are younger, they worry about stuff that they don't even need to be thinking about. 'Cause you and I know, oh, they don't need to worry about that, but they don't know that. And so I tried early on to make sure, like with Luke, Ann, Landon, and Hannah, hey, look, I know you're worried about this, don't be. I've been where you are, it's gonna be okay, you know? - Hey, isn't that amazing?

And I'm just, you know, that phrase that you just said, you know, it makes me think of his first Peter 5'7. And when Peter writes that, he's not even talking about fatherhood, but that's father language. First Peter 5'7, what's it say? Cast all your anxieties on him because of why? Because he cares for you. What you just said, dad, is you want your kids to know, hey, that thing you're worried about, you don't need to worry about it, and I got it for you. How cool is it that God the father does that for us? And in that verse, you see, cast all your anxieties, and so you get this kid that's worried or anxious on who, on dad, 'cause dad's big, strong, and he can handle it, right? Why? Because he cares for you. It's not 'cause he wants you to be perfect, it's not 'cause you gotta have it all figured out, it's because no, I'm dad, and I'm here to protect you, I'm here to guide you, so throw all that stuff on me, because you don't have to carry that anymore. - And what happens to the guy who grows up without a dad is all that's cast on him. - He didn't have anybody to do that with it. Cast it on himself, and it trains you to depend on you. And that's a hard cycle to break, man. I had to, that's years of counseling for me,

to number one, to see that in me, that this created that in me. And then number two, to actually learn, now that I am a father, okay, they're casting their burdens on me, my sons. That's what they're doing, like Drew just said, we want that, where am I casting mine, right? And even still, I'm 46, man, and I've been doing this follow Jesus thing for a long time. And even still, that I got it creeps up, it creeps up. And so, man, I'm gonna care for my boys, but somebody's gotta care for me. And that's when I need God to be my father. - And then there's that difficult tension, Josh, and as they get older, and you're gonna experience this the next few years, where you're gonna have to let them actually sit in some brokenness at times to learn some values. When you read that about first Peter 5'7, I thought also about Matthew 11, 29, where Jesus says, "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, "for I am gentle and humble in heart, "and you will find rest for your souls." He's saying, "I got this, I got this." And I think, I think that's an incredible thing. - Dad, it's interesting, you mentioned, you felt like people was more practical. You know, you called him a teacher, right? - Yeah, I feel like he thought that was his role. I think he thought mom was kind of covering

all the nurturing stuff. And you know, listen, he's a baby boomer. It was different back then. You know, things were a little gruffer then. It was just a little more real, a little more raw. - Okay, so let me ask you this. How do you feel like the conversation on fatherhood has shifted from people on the boomers, the greatest generation, right? - Yeah. - Is, right? And then there's the Gen X stuff, and then now there's millennials. I can speak from a millennial perspective, or at least younger millennial. How do you think that conversation has shifted? What do you feel like people thought he was supposed to do as a dad? And then how did that transition to you, and how was that transition to us? Does that make sense? - I think people thought, "I'm protector, I'm provider, "I'm fixer, I'm teacher." And as it got more toward me, I think as a Gen X and then into millennial, fatherhood has moved more toward the nurturing side and more toward the care. Josh, would you agree with that? Yeah, I would probably use the word coach. Like I would. That's fair. Yeah, and not the coach in this sense of like, you know, you think of like the hard-nosed coach

that just pushed you, didn't care about your feelings. I'm not talking about that kind of coach. I'm talking more like life coach-ish. Like I see fatherhood and the teaching and the books that are coming out and podcasts around fatherhood being more like that language, life coach-ish. Which I don't know. Sometimes I agree with that. Sometimes I don't, you know, I think it's probably best somewhere in the middle. Yeah, I don't remember. It's funny because I don't ever remember my dad having any conversations with me about the future. He was always talking to me about the now and how to fix things today. And I think I kind of was a little more a bigger picture with my kids and, you know, I tried to see each kid differently and say, "Okay, this person's going to end up here." You know, you make predictions about what they're going to be doing, you know. What do you guys think your generation got right and what do you think you messed up? I think that my dad's generation missed one thing and that is they tried to umbrella parent. They tried to parent every kid the same way. You can't do that. You got a parent each kid differently, man. Every kid has a different heart. Every kid has a different brain. They have a different set of emotional IQ, you know. And so based on EQ and all of that, I think you have to parent kids differently. And I think I'm right in between. I had to figure that out as the kids got older. How did you parent me? I'm curious about that. What was your strategy? Wow. Okay. So it's going to be fun. Yeah. Yeah. I think that you were a leader from day one. So that you're very strong-willed. You were worried a lot. You had a high level of anxiety. You always wanted things to be you were perfectionist. So that was hard. When things weren't right. I remember when you were little, if your mom didn't get your socks on right, you made her take the shoes off and put the socks on right because it was bugging you. They probably put me on meds today for that stuff. Yeah, they probably would have put you on meds. But we had to be very patient with you because you were always trying to figure things out. And I remember like I tried to teach you how to ride your bike and you kept falling and you were frustrated and you were mad and you just threw the bike and you were just mad. And then like two days later, I looked out and you were riding your bike. You just did it. You just put your mind to it. So that was different. I think with Luke, I had to be a little more nurturing. He had a little more when he was smaller, a little more

tender heart and you had more of a fixer, doer, leader kind of heart. Okay. So I want to come back to something you just said, but I want to finish the conversation on generational differences. Josh, what I think is interesting about the millennial generation and I actually think it's a great thing. But like, I know a lot of really present dads, a lot of really present dads. And they're changing diapers and showing up at home and doing dishes. And they're at birthday parties and soccer games and all those sorts of things. I think the piece of that that I'm a little bit that I for sure want to make sure that my kids know though has like, dude, I'm at my girls basketball games and I'm putting on their dresses and I'm buying them makeup and Barbies. And I'm trying to embrace all that at the same time though, as they get older, it's going to be really important for them to understand like, dad's here. He's around. He's also to be respected. And I think that generation got respect down because it was like, Hey, I'm in charge. Here are the rules. I'm going to teach you how to do, you know, how to, how to change the oil. I'm going to teach you how to change the tire, how to get a job. You know, they stay in the same job for 40 years. And then our generation is like, I'm going to try to go 180 degrees from that and just be present. Present is a great thing. And yet I also want my kids to understand, listen, there's a there's a level of respect that has to happen here, right? Because I want them to be able to take that and my for my girls be able to take that into their future marriages too. You know what I mean? And so that's the piece for me is I think my kids will get older. That's when I'm I'm going to be looking at is like, yeah, I'm your dad. And I'm here at the same time. However, I am here to give instruction. That's my job. I'm not just your friend. And I think that's really important. I think sometimes parents don't make the switch between they're so afraid to discipline their kid, they become their friend. And you mentioned, you had the presence of a parent, right? One and three is what I think you said, you had the And that's my fear. I don't want that either. I don't want that either. How have you done that in your relationship with your kids? 'Cause you're around, right? - Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I think sometimes abundance

is the greatest enemy of gratitude or the greatest hindrance of it. Like when you just have everything. And so I try to teach my kids gratitude. I try to teach my kids gratefulness and appreciation and to realize, man, what you have is what we want to call normal, but it's not normal, you know? And so there is that. There's also, like Drew said earlier, every kid's gonna be different. And so when the scripture says, "Train up a child in the way they should go," what it means is it's like, you gotta know your kid and you gotta know where they're at in life and what they need right now. And you can't just take this blanket approach that says, "I'm always gonna be this thing." Like if you, I mean, even if you look at God the Father, there's a great cue. I mean, the number one phrase that God wants us to use to address him as Father, it's all throughout scripture. But he's also counselor, provider, healer. And he's those things in the moment we need him to be those things. And so it's not enough just to show up. It's not enough just to show up. You have to show up the way they need you to show up in the moment. And sometimes they need dad, the disciplinarian.

And sometimes they need dad, the teacher. And sometimes they need dad, the big giant pillow of grace that can fall back into. But I think if I could say there is any one thing that I have seen that garners the most respect from my sons is this. And I can actually back this up not just with my experience, but I heard Arthur Brooks say this. He cited a study, and I don't know the study right off the top of my head, but the author, Arthur Brooks, cited a study that said the number one guaranteeer that boys grow up successful. Do you know what it is? The number one guaranteeer? They saw their dad love their mom. And so for me, my boys are not going to respect me if they don't see me honoring their mother. And so I think I could tell them just about anything and they're gonna buy it. If they see me living it in my relationship with their mom, and I've seen that to be true. - Man, that's huge. That's huge. Dad, did you have something on that? - Well, first of all, it reminded me that I think it's a quote attributed to Abraham Lincoln, but I'm not sure. It's like the greatest thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother.

So that's awesome. And yeah, I hope that that was something my kids saw in me. But I also, I was thinking about what, we were talking about presence. What if my biggest regrets wanna know what it is? Looking back is I felt like I underestimated my importance when the kids were babies to about third or fourth grade. And remember this, I was 23 when I became a father for the first time. How old were you? - 27. - Like seven? - 35. - 35, okay. - Big difference. - I had just turned 23. And like, I can tell you, I don't really know what I expected. I expected fatherhood to be hard, and I think it actually turned out to be harder. But I was 23 when I became a father for the first time, but I kind of thought, you know, I was a youth pastor and a children's pastor in a church of 4,000 people, and that may not mean anything to some of our listeners, but if you know church stuff, I was doing birth to college in a church of 4,000, and I was gone a lot, and I thought it doesn't matter.

I'll be there for them when they get older and they can really actually listen to my, and I think I might have missed something there. I think I missed a season of their life that was super formative. And my advice to some of you dads, man, don't discount that toddler and that early elementary age, like I'm saying, don't sleep on the two to seven year old, age because I think that's significant for you to be involved in. - I actually agree with that Josh. - 100%. I actually heard a stat not too long ago that said that one of the number one indicators that a kid will grow up dealing with anxiety is in their formative years. Those years you're talking about if their parents rushed all the time. If they're always rushing, going from thing to thing to thing to thing to thing to thing. - Man, that's convicting right there. - Yeah, we don't realize how much that does to like the limbic system in our kids. And now, and going back to what you were talking about earlier with the generational thing, man, I honestly think like your generation and older drew like, - And so in a lot of ways, man, you guys did your best. - Well. - My generation years, we don't have an excuse.

Like there are mountains of data. - We got information that's debilitating sometimes. - Yeah, yeah, and I will say that one of the things that stirred this regret in me is watching Landon and how incredibly present he is with Scotty and Howling and watching some other dads how present they are. And I thought, "Hmm, man, I might have missed that, "but I can't do anything about it. "But what I can do is be present with my grandchildren "because they're in that age group now." - So one of the things that's been the most relevatory for me as a dad, and it shouldn't be a shock to me, but I think when I say this, it'll probably make sense to everybody. You get to choose what you pass down to your kids. And it's interesting, Dad, you talked about me being an anxious kid, a worried kid. My oldest daughter's five years old, and she has been dealing with what I would call anxiety in a five-year-old way. Example would be she's trying to play basketball for the first time. She gets on the court and starts crying because everybody's looking at her runs off the court. And her mom's frustrated. I was frustrated to an extent. And yet, even though I don't remember those moments 'cause it's too long ago, I resonated with it. And here's the thing I think that's been the most impactful to me as a dad.

And if you're listening to this and you've got kids, and it doesn't matter if they're five, it doesn't matter if they're 15, or if they're 25, you get to decide what cycles you perpetuate. There are good and wonderful things. Case in point, I run a podcast with my father, okay? I wouldn't do that if I didn't like him. I wouldn't do that if I didn't think that he was mostly beneficial to my life. And yet, I'm also not gonna sit here and say that I think my dad's perfect. I know he ain't perfect. 'Cause he's on the same planet I am, which means he's experienced the curse of sin. He's also experienced the good news of Jesus Christ. We have the decision to make as dads what you pass down to your kids, okay? And it's not just whether or not you're in the home. It's not just whether or not you show up to basketball games. It's the think about the things that you're most proud of in your life, of who you are. Man, you try to replicate that into your children. And then there's some things, case in point of mind. Yeah, I've struggled with anxiety. I'm gonna try not to be frustrated with my daughter, but to continue to teach her how to deal with that earlier than I learned to. And I think that's a huge part of playing the role of a father.

But dads, you gotta spend the time to go, okay, what do I wanna instill in my children? And then what do I wanna remove? That stops with me and I'll break that cycle. Does that make sense? It makes a lot of sense. Man, my favorite verse when I became a follower of Jesus was Joel 220, where God tells the children of Israel they're going through a famine. And the reason they were going through the famine was because of the sins of their fathers. And God comes to a new generation through the Prophet Joel and says this, "I will restore the years to locustate." Like, "I will do in you and through you what wasn't even possible in your childhood or the childhood of your father." And so it's really about letting what you, would you just say it's about which version of me is gonna show up? And I think the restored, redeemed version of you can show up, not just the version of you that has to be there or that's there and doesn't know what to do or that's there and just managing. Like, I really believe God wants to restore. I really do that. And I say that 'cause I've seen it in my own life. Man, I don't know how, I never saw any of this. Like, I never saw what I'm living out in my life.

But I would say, man, for me, I was thinking about this yesterday, at landing when I was preparing for this. For me, early on in my walk with Jesus, the church became my mother and the Proverbs became the voice of my father. Wow. Somebody taught me when I, and I don't even remember where it was or when it was, but right when I became a father of Jesus when I was 17, a man in our church pulled me aside and said, "Son, I want you to read the Proverb of the day every day for the rest of your life." And I've done that. And just little things like that in my life, when I didn't know what to do and God has been faithful, He's restored, He's redeemed. - Josh, that's a beautiful picture. And I think there's a couple of things Because in the last five minutes, here's what we've covered, right? Number one, we're responsible for what we pass on to our children, okay? And what you just mentioned is, there are opportunities to be spiritual fathers, to lots of different people, okay? You've had a bunch, I've had a bunch. I mean, I feel like I'm rich in the fatherhood area, 'cause I've had a ton of guys that have influenced me. And one of the things that I wanna make sure to mention

is we are directly responsible as dads for our children's spiritual growth. That's the plan that if you look in the book of Deuteronomy with the Shema, it talks about teaching these things to your children. And then even dad, I can't remember which series it was that we did, but do you remember what we learned about Simon of Cyrene? So in the book of Mark, Simon of Cyrene is the man that carries the cross of Christ. So he's going about his, we don't know if he knew who Jesus was. He's going about his everyday life. He's actually on his way to the temple. And Jesus is going down the Via de la Rosa, the way of suffering, he's carrying the cross. And someone taps Simon of Cyrene on the shoulder and asks him to carry the cross of Christ. And in the text, Mark 15, it says that Simon was the father of Alexander and Rufus. In context, it makes absolutely zero sense. We don't know that Alexander and Rufus was there. The Bible just tells us that Simon carried his cross. And yet if you look in the book of Acts, you see that Alexander and Rufus played a part in the development of the early church, which meant there was a moment where Simon of Cyrene carried the cross of Christ. Christ had an impact on my life. He probably saw him crucified and then had some moment

where he was resurrected and then taught his family about it. And so what do you see later? Years later, you see his two sons playing a role in the church. And then one of my favorite things about gaining ground is there are guys who for the very first time in their life are taking their spiritual walks seriously. I had a guy the other day tell me that he sits down with a son and they do it devotional every day before school. Do you know that the impact that that's going to have in their life? - Versus the day. - That could change generations. But I'm sitting here right now as a result of that. Josh, you're doing that for your kids. And so guys, that's my encouragement to you is listen, the church is here to support you. Hopefully wherever you're going to church, they've got a good youth ministry, they've got a good kids ministry. All that stuff will help you at the end of the day though, you are responsible for your own kids' spiritual development. - I love what Andy Stanley says. For many of us, the greatest thing we ever do in this life won't be what we do, but who we raise. And you just, you have to look at that as your primary calling. It is the single most important thing

that you do on this planet outside of serving Jesus. And if the version of you that's being brought to that, if you're just like, man, I don't feel equipped, I don't feel adequate, I don't feel, if you felt that way about your job, you do every single thing you possibly could to train yourself, to learn the modules you need to learn, to go back and get education. If you felt like you were falling behind in your job, guys, we would work on that as hard as we could. You're, it's a cliche at this point, but the number one job of the follower of Jesus, it's a man who has kids, is to be a father. - And can I just say this that I think fatherhood today, I know it's not easy, I know it's difficult. And some of the kids, we talked about how, we did the best we could with what we had available. Okay, great. But I will also say, I think it's more complex today. My dad never had to deal with social media with me. And so I don't want to get into that as much as this, I just wanted to say this, that I just think, one of the things that breaks my heart, Josh, and land in about watching Christian men raise their kids is how much emphasis so many put on pressuring their kids academically and with sports and in other fields. And it drives me crazy. I think coaching is great, I think encouraging is great, but I think pressure, they have so much pressure on them. I don't remember having pressure on me in those areas

when I was a kid. And one verse that I think we've been talking about verses, it means a lot to me, Ephesians 6, 4, fathers do not exasperate your children, but bring them up in the training instruction of the Lord. You see what he's saying there? Man, you're taking your kid to like club soccer. it ain't gonna be in World Cup, all right? It is gonna matter. But it would matter if they know the Lord. And I know that sounds real preachy, but I just get tired of that. What do you think about that? - Man, and Josh and I have both done youth ministry. And the reason I bring that up is we've been spiritual fathers to a lot of kids. - A lot. - At least for a season, at least for a season. And I will tell you, Dad, I think, and I'm not trying to dish on my hometown, but man, I've lived in California, I've lived in Arizona, I lived in Indiana, I lived in Texas. This is an epidemic in Dallas, Fort Worth. And honestly, I would actually describe it as an idol. I think there's an idolization around achievement in kids. It probably comes from their parents. I don't think it starts in pure. I think it's a kid loves to play a sport. They're gonna dribble in a ball, they enjoy playing with their friends, everybody should do that.

I think that's a beautiful thing. But what's most important is parents have to understand there's a hundred percent chance your kid is gonna stand before the Lord. At the end of the day, the book of Romans says that everyone will give an account of themselves to God. That means that kid is going to, okay? You can't save your kids, only Jesus can save your kids. However, the question to ask yourself, and I wanna get practical in this podcast is, am I creating a culture in my family? Where following Jesus is the most important thing that we do? I think that's the best answer. And is that reflected in our time and our calendar? - Well, I mean, we've been student pastors, and now we're pastoring men. And you guys have had this experience. I have it almost weekly where a man comes and meets with me and says stuff that he's trying to teach his kids or stuff he's dealing with in life, and he's trying to follow Jesus, and he says these words. Nobody ever taught me how to do this. So I meet with guys all the time who are 45 years old who know how to hit a three-pointer, who know how to hit a baseball, and can drive a golf ball country mile, but don't know how to pray with their wife, don't know how to read the scripture, don't know how to guide their kids to following Jesus. So at some point, like that cycle continues

if we don't break it, men, and we pass that down to our kids if we did what was handed to us. And so if I could encourage you guys, I would say for some of you, you've got to make the decision today that basically like spiritually, you're starting a new family tree. My wife and I did that. We had to do that. Like a new cycle starts with us. And maybe that means that you need to humble yourself enough to say, I don't know how to do the things that I need to teach my sons and my daughters how to do. Smells needs to teach me. Like, man, what better effort could you give yourself to for the next seven, 10 years of your life than to say I'm gonna be one chapter ahead of my kids? You know, I'm gonna get a fourth grade spiritual education so I can teach them third grade right now. And I'm just gonna do that 'til they're 18. Like that sounds like faking it 'til you make it, I know, but I promise you there'll be no better effort, right? - And I would add one thing to that, Josh, when's the last time you prayed for your kids individually? And I would just say, man, if you're not sure what to do right now as a dad, I can tell you one thing you can do immediately, every morning and every evening, man, pray for your kids, but lift them up to the Father and pray for them. And I will tell you this, one of the reasons

we're doing this podcast is that we want you to be a great dad today and get better today. I will tell you this, Landon, one of the most difficult moments for me as a dad involved you and that is-- - That is not surprising at all. - I'm glad you said it. (all laughing) - Well, no, it's not what you think. You didn't do anything wrong. - 'Cause I got a list of a couple things this could be, but-- - You didn't do anything wrong at all. My most devastating moment, Josh, in fatherhood was the day I dropped him off at Texas A&M and it was crazy because it was a Saturday, I'll never forget this, it was a Saturday, and we had a Saturday night service and this was before we had all these campuses. I was kind of the guy, you know? And I had to fly back from college station. I got a one-way flight on American Eagle and I remember he and his mom took me to the airport and I said goodbye to him and I could not stop crying and the reason was not because I was gonna miss him 'cause I was so happy for him 'cause he got to go to college. I was devastated because the enemy had convinced me that I had not prepared him for this and I had, the enemy was messing with me and I felt like the enemy was saying,

you did a crappy job as a dad and he is not prepared for this and I don't know why I went through that, to Dallas because I had to get in the pulpit that night and preach. And all I just want to say is, man, don't do that. Work on that. Work on presence and availability right now because I was worried, you know, in hindsight, maybe I did do some things that prepared him. Hopefully I did, but that's what I was worried about. I didn't worry about Hannah because I felt like, you know, her mom taught her how to be a woman, but I was worried about that. Well, if I could just say, I know my boys are young, but like Landon said, you know, 21 years working in student ministry, I got to father a lot of kids that weren't my kids. And somebody told me this when I was young as a youth pastor, and I think it really applies to parenting. When you're done speaking, the spirit of God's not. So you say your peace, you do your deal. You do the best you can to present the best version of you. You can do your kids, but you also have to know that all the prayer, man, all the lesson, all the sacrifice, all the reading the word with them that God will ensure that carries with them through the rest of their life. That's on him now at that point, and you do your best. That's on him. And I saw this illustration one time and it was a leadership illustration, but I think it's so important for parenting too. I saw a guy draw a line on a whiteboard and he said this side of the line is today. And this side of the line over here is when you retire, right? So or think when your kids go off to college or when they get married or whatever. So there's millions of events that happen between here and there. Which one of them is the one that determines whether or not you are a good leader?

Which one of them was the one that determines whether or not you were a good father? It's not a single one of them. What determines whether or not you'll be a good father is the end game. It's the end. And that's why you show up and you keep showing up and you keep showing up and you keep showing up. And some days you're going to show up and cry when they leave and some days you're going to show up and it's going to be joy, but you just keep showing up and just keep showing up. Yeah. I want to dive into that a little bit again, get practical. If you got a, if somebody's here and they're trying to do the best they can, but they got a kid that's hard, yeah, it's been a tough experience and there may, there's probably some guys here going, "Dad, I've heard you vocalize this a little bit today." Man, I really screwed this up and so whether they feel like they contributed to their kid being the way that they are or making some of the decisions they've made or there's just a tough circumstance. What would be your advice to a guy that's in that space right now? What do you guys think? Well, I think part of what we get to do is we get to counsel people as pastors through some of the hardest moments of their life and a lot of times that has to deal with like betrayal and hurt and pain and I don't know if you guys, I think you guys would say this. I have been so many times in my pastoral career surprised by the capacity of the human heart to forgive. I've been blown away by how people have been able to look at a person who's hurt them, who's done wrong by them, who's not shown up for them and forgive them. So I would say if you're a father and you're watching this and you say, "Man, I have admittedly messed up so many times and I feel terrible about it and it has impacted my kid," admit it. Like come clean, be honest, because I think you'd be blown away at the capacity your

kid might have to say, "I forgive you." And for today to be a fresh start and a new start, I can't guarantee that obviously, but I've seen it happen so many times. So honesty matters so much in leadership and it matters so much in parenting. On the other hand, if you're in a situation where, "Look, man, Jesus had 12 guys around them. One of them was really difficult." Well, actually, one was really, really difficult and the other, some of them were pretty difficult. Yeah. And so even Jesus, if you just look at how Jesus dealt with these guys for three years, there was tension. Peter ran ahead of him, Thomas doubted him, Jesus betrayed him. It wasn't perfect. Oh. Yeah. This was Jesus' experience. The greatest leader who ever lived had had this experience. And so I would say you've got to give yourself grace and sometimes the only way I've been able to find grace in my life, I was reading in the proverb of the day to day because I do that. You're still doing that. You're still. And the proverb of the day to day talked about how wisdom is found in the multitude of counselors. And so sometimes you just need to sit around other guys and say, "This is what I'm doing with my kid and you need to hear another guy say to you, "Me too." Well, can I add to that? Yeah. Not only that because I 100% agree with that, sometimes you have to put other voice. There were times, and I've done this several times,

and I don't know if he probably didn't even realize this, but there were times when I would ask Brandon Beard, who's on our staff, and I've been with Brandon, I've been working the other 30 years and say, "Hey, could you encourage Lambda?" He's a little down, I'm not sure he wants to hear it from me right now. Or I would call, Landon has an uncle, his name's Tony, and they're very close friends, and I've said, "Hey, Tony, why don't you encourage, "lean into Landon just a little bit?" Whatever that looks like for you. And then he had a mentor at high school named John Pittstick, and there were even times with Michelle or I with text John, "Hey, Landon could use you right now, "if you're available." - So there. - And I think that was valuable. - And I think you can tell your kids? - 'Cause sometimes it doesn't always have to be you, every now and then. - I mean, you could tell your kids that. Look, if you got teenage kids, I've said this to so many students over the years, and I've said it to parents. You don't have to talk to me, but you gotta talk to somebody. - Yeah. - Because I'm not letting you hang on to this,

or I'm not letting this season become a lifestyle for you. So we're gonna find you somebody to talk to. And even like you said, Drew, that's such great, such grace to say, I'm gonna go behind the scenes and stack the deck for my kids, and they may not even ever know. They may think that Brandon just reached out because Brandon loves them. But behind the scenes, you're pulling strings. Don't you know behind the scenes your Heavenly Father's pulling strings for you that you're unaware of right now? So do the same for your kids. - I can't tell you how many times my wife and I have had conversations over the years going, man, we're hitting the ball foul here. We're not getting this. We're not, who can hit a home run for this kid right now? And it's this person or it's that person. - It's so good. - You know, one of the things that's making me think of is you guys give wisdom on how to deal with just hard stuff and parenting. And for what it's worth, you know, if you're a dad listening to this, it's just my opinion. Man, I think being a dad has taught me more about following Jesus than probably any other role that I've played in my life. And especially the moments where you have to deal with

the difficult things, even sin, right? Sin in your children. Now my kids are two and five, so sin looks like lion or, you know, hey, did you grab a popsicle when you should know, you know, yes, you did, that kind of thing. But being a student pastor, I got to see consequences of sin when, you know, 15, 16 years old and real implications. But the thing that I always want to encourage parents with who are dealing with regret or guilt is at the end of the day, it is your daughter or son's responsibility to come home. It's their responsibility to come home. You can create a atmosphere where home is a place they want to be, but you can't make them. And it reminds me of, you know, probably the most quotable or I'm a visual learner. So I just, the prodigal son is so beautiful. Luke chapter 15, there's two phrases I want to point out because I think it's, it's incredibly profound. One, if you know the story of the prodigal son, you know, this kid asked for his father's inheritance early, which in Jewish culture, you didn't really do that. Most, a lot of people don't do that today even, right? It's kind of this like, hey, I wish you were dead, give me money. And so he goes out and the Bible says that he spends his time in wild living. But the moment everybody talks about the prodigal son

is when he starts to run home. Before he runs home, it says when he came to his senses, when he came to his senses, which meant when he tried sex drugs and rock and roll, and he realized that that wasn't going to fulfill him. When he came to his senses, he realized the best place that he could be was home, what'd he do? He came back to his father's house. That's phrase number one. Phrase number two is this. It says that when he was still a long way off, his father saw him, had compassion on him and ran. And if you think about the cultural context, and I didn't know this, I preached this sermon a hundred times by now, but if you look in the Jewish context of this passage and when it was written, this part would have been scandalous. That his dad ran for two reasons. One, in Jewish culture, Jewish men didn't run. They didn't hurry because running would meant that you'd have to lift your robe, expose your legs and you look undignified. Patriarchs walked, servants ran, children ran. Once you got mature, you move with purpose. And then it gets even better. There was this, and I'm probably gonna mispronounce this, but there's a practice called the kazaza ceremony. And if someone shamed the family, what would happen, okay, is that they would actually, like they would have this ceremony

where this person was no longer apart. they'd say, "Hey, you're now cut off from this community." Even so, that if that person ever came back, they would be allowed to stand on the edge of town and shame them before they came back. The father runs to get beyond those people and embraces his son, because good fathers still protect their children, even if they screw up. So, he's not waiting on the porch saying, "Hey, figure it out," and then come back. No, he goes into it. He goes into the mess and says, "No, I'm going to be here with you." And so, I think that if there are kids right now in your house that are strung out on drugs, or they're in rehab, or you want them so badly to be in church with you and they're not, I just want to encourage you, mom and dad, "Man, don't give up hope, right? Don't give up hope." The deepest need of every child is not merely an earthly father, but it's the presence of a heavenly one. And the prayer needs to be that that kid would encounter the living God. And they're going to need you in order to do that. Ultimately, though, that's up to them. Yeah, it is. And I think, I heard somebody say this one time that often the bridge, the Holy Spirit, walks across the most to get to a person as the one of relationship. And so, it's hard in those moments when your kid messes up, especially if it's like gears of messing up, severe messing up, like Landon talked about. A lot of times, as dads will say to our kids, "Hey, look at me. Look right here. Look at me in the eyes." And we won't respect. But I have learned in those moments, yeah, I'm going to make my son look at me. And I imagine the father in that moment probably wanted to see his son's eyes. And the reason that is so important is because Jesus said the eyes of the window of the soul. And so, yeah, make them look at you in that moment, make them see you, but let them see your heart. And then see theirs. The father didn't give that son anything to do when he came home, right there. He just wanted to hug. Now, listen, I can imagine two days later, they talked about, all right, here's your job. Here's how we're going to integrate you back into the community. Your older brother's going to be a problem. So we got to talk about what you're going to do with him because he's not liking this right now. So there were conversations that happened. Don't just say, "Oh, man, that's just weak." I guarantee you, that dad did all that on the back end, but that wasn't the moment. The moment right there was be a father of grace. If you guys could give one piece of advice of how to be a better son right now to people listening, whether their dad's 80 or 50, what do you think that looks like? What would you say? And then I

want you guys to answer the opposite of somebody wanting to be a better dad. I think often, Andrew, you may push back on this, but or disagree, your perspective is different as well as what I'd say because your son is an adult. But I think dad's like, I love soccer so much right now. I'm so, I got World Cup fever, man. I love it so much. I love it too. I was watching it in my car all the way over here. I didn't like soccer before I had a son. I only like soccer because my son likes soccer, but now I'm a fanatic about it. I love when my kids recognize what I'm into and what I like and what matters to me and they take the initiative and say, "Hey, dad, let's go to Hutchins because I know you like barbecue." It means they see me. They see me not me the father, me, Josh, right, the individual. And so I would say, if you want to be a better son or if you're having a distance or a disconnect in your relationship with your father, see him as a human, like see him as a soul as a person, not just your dad, but as a man who needs Jesus just like you do. Somebody told me that when I was young, when I was wrestling with my stepdad and just battling, like having to show up and be a stepson, "Hey, before he's married to your mom, he's a soul that needs Jesus and likes things and has the DNA and he's an image bearer of God in him." And so see him as that. And I think that that may help you learn to better respect him and love him and care for him. All right. Now let's ask the opposite question to finish this thing up. One piece of advice of how the guys listen to this can be better than it. Regardless if they got young kids or kids out of the house. This is going to sound churchy. But it's like Paul said, man, follow my example as I follow the example of Christ. Man, get better every day, get closer to Jesus every day. And if you do that, if your proximity to God increases every day, their proximity to God will increase every day. I'm just telling you, get closer and man model biblical love to your wife. Man, I was which I mean, that's essentially the same exact thing is, listen, there are days when I don't want to be gracious to my kids, I don't want to be patient, I don't want to be peaceful. I don't want to be any of the fruits of the spirit, but the spirit of God is the only way that that man that happens. And so for me as a dad, you know,

I got a long road ahead of me, man, but I've got to grow in my ability to be a son of God, and that will help me become a better father. Josh, what's the last thing you would say? - Yeah, I mean, I think that what I wanna say probably hits more for like a girl dad, but would you want your daughter to marry a guy that's just like you? Like you are right now. And if the answer is no, then man, everything we've said in this podcast and everything that's said in this podcast every single time it comes out, to be honest, is everything flows from within, man, and you're not gonna fix internal problems with external solutions. The baseball swing's great, it's not gonna fix it. The money's great, the vacations are great, all that's great, but it is ultimately not gonna fix that we just, that thing we just talked about. It all starts in here. And so I would say a better we, we say this a lot in my family. Healthy, we starts with healthy me. And as a father, I believe more than anybody else in the family, that is, that impetus is on you. It's not on your wife, it's not on your kids. The first person who's got to get their stuff together is the dad and it starts with getting it together with Jesus, like where are you at with God right now?

Real, real honest, real honest, where are you at with God right now? And start there, start there, let him form you. - Well, Josh, I wanna thank you both for being on here and I appreciate the conversation. I hope it was helpful to you guys. Let's do this again sometime. - Yeah, it'd be great, that's great. - All right guys, as always, thanks for listening to the Gaining Ground podcast. We'll see you next time. - Hey, thanks for joining us on the Gaining Ground podcast. If you enjoyed today's content, it would help us a ton. If you could like this video, click the subscribe button and turn on your notifications so you never miss an episode. If you're looking for more resources or how to get connected, please feel free to look in the description below, find our website, gaininggroundmen.com. We'd love to connect with you there. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)