The Hard Way Forward: A Candid Conversation with Brian Tome | Aggressive Life with Brian Tome

Brought it myself There's a lot that has been unfair. There's a lot that's been accurate, but the situation Is a is of is of my doing this all goes public and then there's the investigation and then you You went on stage and you gave your kind of public repentance and I have that do you want do you want to watch it? You I have not watched it might be painful for me, but yeah, let's let's watch it and then talk about it Might be painful, but it'll be good to see it and then we can react to it. It's painful. That's not good to see it, but It's all healing I guess it'll be it'll be helpful to see it So I can probably tell you a lot what's going on my mind when I said this and that and all that stuff, okay? Welcome to the aggressive life, man It's been a while since I have said that it's been over six months This is the inaugural return episode of the aggressive life I will give you my little background my intro, but you probably know me by now. My name's Brian tome 60 years old three kids and married and they all live within 12 minutes of me and I have seven grandkids and I started church 30 years ago and I and I And I do motorcycles and I restore cars I basically have an outlook on life that's about you want to be pushing you want to you want to make mistakes that are aggressive if you're gonna make a mistake make one that's aggressive and You want to just make sure you're you're you're living your life proactively instead of just reactively To what other people are doing and reacting to other mistakes other people are doing just just take the initiative and don't play the blame game and don't be a victim. That's what the aggressive life podcasts about and I've been out of the pocket for six months because I made a mistake actually made You know more than one mistake, but one that's good kind of started the whole thing or sin you could call it an indiscretion and it started just a whole cavalcade of events and learnings by me over the last six months and just appropriate to Not be doing certain things I've done for many many years including having an aggressive life podcast every every week But this is the first one back and I'm really glad to be back and I want to help you I don't know if you've ever made mistakes before. I don't know if you've ever undergone public shame before I Don't know if you've ever had to swallow your pride before or if you've lost your reputation

Or if you've done something that you had to repent for and I know you've done something you have to repent for but We don't really hear a lot of repentant stories. It's one of the things that God impressed on me in my journey, which I Haven't really been able to go public with I've done some as much as I can in the context of a 35-minute talk that I've given to the church I started called Crossroads or Moment to repent which I did at Crossroads for about five minutes publicly Did that but you know there's a lot of stuff like backstory That's just not all that relevant or interesting or doesn't isn't gonna fit into a church service and all that stuff but this and this podcast I thought I really want to kind of do a deeper dive and talk about what's been happening and what that how that relates to to who God is and who I am and who the future is and I I share this not because I Want more of my life in the limelight, but I do have a job. It's in the limelight And I believe God's put me here to help people and to be a model and even when I do things aren't right. I want to model the right Interpretation learning and repentance process process coming out of it. That's why I feel led to do this today I'm not even sure where it's gonna go today. I got one of my dear old buddies been on the aggressive life before Podcast before his name is Craig Daugherty, but I've always known him as Windex, yes So Windex is gonna be asking me questions and some of these things these questions. You're gonna be asking me How many of them do you know the answer to I? Don't know I what who knows let's see where we go, you know, cuz I know I mean you and I have been talking, you know There's these last couple months, but there's a lot of questions I still have and I think would be great for people to hear and Any good conversation is gonna bring up new questions, so that's right. So let's go you want to tell people why you're Windex You want to I think it's more funny if you tell them why because right now currently if you're watching the video version You'll see I have nice short clean, you know person who lives in a society kind of hair But I didn't always look like that I used to be in a band and had big, you know long greasy hair And then that's where you come it was long and it was greasy It was always good. Did you smear something on it or did you not it was just crazy was always really? - Well, my mom always wanted me to look like Harry Potter.

You know what I mean? So I grew up looking like that. Fortunately, Harry Potter didn't come out so after I was in high school, so I didn't get bullied quite as hard because of that. But yeah, as soon as I went to college, I was like, see you mom, I'm dressing like a bum, growing my hair out on it. - Your hair is always long and greased. One day I went, what are you? What do you do to your, do you squirt Windex on it and just wash it all to tower off with Windex? - Right, right. - And then your mother found out about that nickname. - Now she calls me Windex. - Yeah, yeah. So, thanks Carol Dockery. So as far as asking you some questions about this, just these last six months and the journey you've been on, just for the folks who have been peripheral to it or whatever, give like the two minute version of like, just what happened? - Well, there isn't a two minute version. It's a long version. - Okay, just even just quickly, like what led up to that? - Well, I am, there's nothing quickly that lays up, that's the thing. Everything about the list six months has been communicating quickly. 'Cause there are press reports and this and that.

I don't wanna do quick things. I wanna do things that are rather exhaustive. - Okay, great. - You want me to tell the story? - Yeah, I wanna do it because I think understanding what got to the point of you repenting and walking through this whole journey, it's helpful for people to know. More details are more better. - Okay, all right. - About, I don't have the exact timelines, right? In terms of the month or the week or the specific date, but about two years ago, someone contacted me and told me that there was a guy who I spent a pretty good amount of time with that came to him and said that I had molested him with a sex toy. I said to this person who told me this, I said, he said, "What do you want me to do about this?" I said, "Go direct with the board." I shouldn't be involved, just go direct with the board. So I went to the board, got the board involved. The next day, I had a meeting with one board member and this guy I've known for a while and spent a fair amount of time with him. And he had come in, we had been someplace and there was a, there was a riding crop on sitting there on a table and he said, what is that, is that a sex toy? And I don't know what he's talking about and I went, I looked at it, it's a riding crop

that I've had a couple of them in the 30 years I've been at Crossroads. My daughter bought me one, one broke and somebody else bought me another one. And it was just stupid, junior high, humor, I would go around and slap the back of a door, slap somebody's desk and make them, and they would scare them, they'd jump up and if I'd never done it to you. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember this. - You remember this? - Yes. - I would give someone like a cheap workout 'cause their heart rate would spike and all that stuff. So I did that for a long, long time. And, and, you know, when he said sex toy, I know he saw it look down at it and then I picked it up, I picked it up and I put it on his crotch, the sex toy. No, it's a riding crop, it's a horse, it's a horse riding crop. That's what he saw it as. So I got together with him and a board member and it immediately went great. I apologize, I didn't only have a clear memory of the incident, he had some details that I didn't recall or I didn't agree with but it was like, hey, I want to do whatever I can to make this right and to tell you, I'm sorry,

I'm sorry, any hurt that I've caused you and what can I do to make it right? And it was really, really a good meaning that he received very well. And at least that's what he had said. And the board, the board admonished me, said, hey man, you gotta be more careful with what you're doing with your humor. A good admonishment. And then about a year later, something happened and he was not a new thing. Something had happened in his journey and as he looked back on it, he didn't feel like what happened was complete and what happened was enough. So the board decided to hire an independent investigator to independently investigate this and when they made all this decision without me being a part of it, I was called and notified that I was going to be placed on suspension while they did this. this independent investigator. I didn't contribute to anything. And it's probably the way it should have been. I mean, board just got to do what they got to do and do what they think they need to do to protect everyone involved and do the right thing. And they felt, and I think they were right. There's a lot of things that our board has been thrown into a cauldron of chaos that none of them asked to be thrown into. These are all people who are really good, godly and smart people who all have jobs and responsibilities and all that stuff. And they didn't ask for any of this. And all of a sudden, wham, you know, they are right in a cauldron of chaos and confusion, trying to make calls and doing things they've never

had to do as a board. So I have nothing but respect and admiration for the job that they've endeavored to do and the things they've been up against. They've had a Herculean task, which they've been sacrificing over. And I honor and respect and love them all deeply for that. And the, the suspension was so that I was outside, they could do all of their, you know, all their due diligence and all that stuff. They hired an independent legal firm from outside to do a, do a, do a full and death investigation and everything. And then what happened, this is where it gets really, gets really difficult. There's so many places where it got really difficult. But because I'm a public figure and because people knew that now I was going under being, going under investigation, then like everybody came out from the woodwork with stuff they didn't like about me, stuff that I had done that they thought was wrong and inappropriate things I'd said and all that. And the, and the board had to consider those. They had to consider, okay, which one of these do we track down, which one of these are just here, say, which one of these, how do you, you know, now fortunately, none of those things were things I would call biblically disqualifying, not of a biblically disqualifying nature. There wasn't any adultery in there or, you know, you know, we felt me up or something like that. There wasn't any financial impropriety. It was stuff that wasn't good, but it was, you know, jokes that shouldn't have been told. It was in ways that he was intense or he preached this sermon and I didn't like this and he did that and I didn't, and I told her, told a joke that shouldn't have been told a lot of, they had to look at it and a lot of it wasn't good. It was, it was important stuff to look at. And it just made it really, really tough. And then of course, I've never been really at the center of controversy in the media. I've actually prided myself that I haven't had a scandal. I've had a lot of people didn't like what I was doing. I've always kind of been the guy who's out there in the fringe and who doesn't fit. Our executive pastor Darren Nate says that all times when he's, when he's with other executive pastors of peer churches, they all go like, yeah, that dude's a loose cannon. That guy doesn't fit. Others have said, well, maybe the reason you don't get to speak more conference and stuff like that is you don't fit the narrative of what a person like you should be saying or doing. Yeah, I know I'm, I'm kind of an, an outlier out there, but I haven't been the center of controversy. Now all of a sudden, I was, now all of a sudden I'm in, I'm in

the media and we've got good relationships with the media and Cincinnati. So, you know, we have people here, we're able to interact with them. And for the most part, the media sources and Cincinnati did a good and honorable job. But then there's media, quote unquote media sources across the internet that are, you know, they're existing for clicks. They're existing. They, some of them, a couple of them, they love finding horrible things about churches. And that's how they get clicks. And so they were on it. And you know, those folks, I don't even want to mention who they are because I'm giving them, you know, some advertising here, but they never call us for a statement. They never call and talk to our, talk to any person on staff who deals with the media that, and there's just, and you can just go out there and just spin some tale that you want and find plenty of people who don't like church and don't like mega church pastors to agree with that. Anyway, that happens. Yeah, well, this kind of stuff happened to Jesus too. Why do I think that I'm not saying I'm Jesus. I'm not saying I was holy as Jesus. I'm just going like Jesus says if they persecuted me, they're going to persecute you. He says, in this life, you will have trouble. That's Jesus. No one has that on their, on their refrigerator. But that's a promise. That's a one of the promises of Jesus. In this life, you will have, you'll have trouble. And, and And really, what was good for me spiritually? I'm better coming out of this, better with God, better, more like God, because He's refined my character. And yeah, I'm living in Romans 8, 29 to 30. And He causes all things to work for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose, it's not, He calls all things to work out for good. It's, if you are called according to His purpose and you have the same mind towards the kingdom that He does, then this will be okay. But if your purpose and your vision is you to have the most easy, nicest life possible, well, in that context, no, all things are probably not going to be good for you. Sorry, you're not going to get what you want. But I felt God's hand of correction and I've felt His hand of tenderness on me too. And you don't, you don't come back from that the same way that you were. I've lived my life on the edge.

For 30 years I've lived my life on the edge. I know I say things that other pastors aren't going to say, not other normal dudes, they'll say it, but I, and I know I do things that are on the edge and too much on the edge. And you know, when you, when you're on the edge, when you're on the edge, you're going to fall over, you're going to go over the edge. There was a friend/mentor of mine that I talked to at one point. His name was Don Cousins, just a great, great guy, the father of Kirk Cousins. I reached out to him, some counsel and he was the actual one who said they said, well, you know, you lived on the edge, I guess you lived on the edge. You could go over the edge and yeah, all this stuff, I brought it myself. There's a lot that has been unfair. There's a lot that's been accurate, but the situation is of, is of my doing. So that was six months. I mean, it was, it's six months of investigations and meetings and heartache and, you know, I'm sure we'll get into play in that six months, but that, that, that's where we come to where we are now. Okay. So that was, as I remember it, that was about six weeks that led from the, the investigation, the initial, like this all goes public and then there's the investigation and then you, you went on stage and you gave your kind of public repentance. Yeah. Was that six weeks? I think that was six weeks. You've done the research. I, I haven't. Six weeks. I just looked at it this morning and I have that. Do you want, do you want to watch it? You, uh, I have not watched it might be painful for me, but yeah, let's, let's watch it and then talk about it.

It might be painful, but it'll be good to see it and then we can react to it. It was painful. That's not good to see it, but it's all healing, I guess. And it'll be, it'll be helpful to see it cause I can probably tell you a lot was going on my mind when I said this and that and all that stuff. Okay. Well, here we go. Let's watch it. Thank you. Thank you. But please don't. Thank you. But thank you. Please don't. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. But, uh, thank you. Just, just not appropriate for what I'm going to say right now. So let me, let me first say I am sorry for the complication that I brought to you all in this church. And to be clear, it was me, it was me. This has created tension and confusion and all of that, all of that is on me. My humor has been out of bounds at times as has my intensity with some staff members at times. With my humor, as you all know, I, I, I like to walk right up the edge. So when you write the edge, you fall off sometimes and I, and I've, and I've fallen off the edge. The inappropriate use of a riding crop is, is just the most obvious example.

And I want to, again, I want to express my sincerest apologies, regrets to the community member, uh, who I offended. Apart from that incident, there's, there's jokes that I've told that have been inappropriate or at least inappropriate in the setting in which they were told. This is, I believe with the Bible referred to as, it's course jesting. Apart from those things I've, I've had outbursts that are unbecoming of a godly leader or I'm becoming, especially this, what hurts me of a spiritual father to some of his spiritual children. And I really regret that and that hurts. That hurts me. And I, as I've, as I've heard some others. So I am, um, I'm, I'm asking that you forgive me. I'm asking that you would extend grace to me. And I'm sorry. I'm really, I'm really sorry. I also asked, also asked that you extend the board an unbelievable amount of grace and compassion and understanding. This has been a horrible, horrible six weeks for them. And again, they didn't do anything. entirely of my doing. They've been thrust into a bad situation and have done their best to be honorable and do what's best for the church instead of maybe what's best for me or my feelings. One of the things that I've learned about revivals and awakenings, which as you know, that is the thing that I'm most excited about is that people will say, well, confession of sin is what precedes revivals and awakenings. That's actually not true. Confession of sin and repentance is not what precedes an awakening and revival. Confession of sin and repentance is what happens inside of an awakening and revival. And the reason is because when you come to encounter God, you come to encounter Jesus in a fresh and exhilarating way. It's two things simultaneously happens. One, you are struck by how you fall short and you are struck by your own sinfulness. And two, you are struck by how good he is. You are struck by how loving is and overwhelming grace and repenting and asking forgiveness is normal and you feel safe doing it because you're so close

to his presence. This has been the most painful six weeks of my life and it's been one of the most beautiful six weeks of my life because I've encountered God in ways I haven't before. First time I preach at some point here, I'll probably tell you about at least one of those, but I have experienced him very, very dearly and I will never regret that. So I'll be doing some adequate repentance and restoration here over the months ahead and doing some other things. I'm going to come back. I'm going to come back not as the old BT though God's made me who he is, but I'm going to come back different because God's doing a different thing in me. Richard Rohr, the old Catholic priest, says of suffering. He says, "Once you've suffered, the old paths don't work anymore." Anybody here who's suffering, you know what I'm talking about? Things just are a bit different for us. Romans 5, 3 to 5, we've all looked at during the journey and just remind us, suffering produces perseverance, perseverance produces character and character produces hope. The next verse is this, "And hope does not lead us to shame." Because God has poured out his love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has given us. That's what the beautiful relationship with Jesus is. No shame, love poured out in us and the Holy Spirit's pushing us forward. So that's all I have for you today. I'm sorry again for all the chaos. I'm sorry. I'm thankful for your steadfastness and your faithfulness and your friendliness. I love you all very much. Yeah. How was that watching that? I haven't watched that. It was uncomfortable, good. Okay, glad I said that. Yeah, it was fine. We talk about repentance a lot. It's a really churchy word that a lot of people might not have a real understanding of. You're like, I'm going on this repentance restoration journey. What does that mean for you in regular people terms? Repentance means a change of mind. It means a turn. You're going one direction and you turn and go the other direction. Saying sorry is part of it, but it has to be accomplished with, you know, you're intending to do some things different in your life. I've never been afraid of repentance. So people say repentance is hard. The people who say repentance is hard don't repent. It's like, you think weightlifting is hard just because you never lift weights. Right. You know, repentance is actually, for me, very natural because I follow a God who offers a lot of grace for forgiveness. And I've had to repent a lot, you know, it's one of the, there's about, I haven't cataloged them all. Maybe we'll get into some of them. But there's, there's a good number of profound moments when I heard from God over the last

six months. And this was one of the earliest ones is when God said to me, you're, you were, you're in a public group and do what others are not willing to do. In my position, there's people who have been in my position and have had also not of a biblically disqualifying nature. There's things in the Bible that are biblically disqualifying for someone to be a leader, at least for a long season in ministry. If you get divorced, have an adult's affair, okay, I'm not saying you can never have a job in paid ministry again, but that's a game-ender for a season of you just getting your head. Right. And people I know who have had either biblically disqualifying sin take place or just embarrassing sin happen take place, I'm always going to just repent, just repent like one of my heroes in the faith who's very impactful to me on. I'm not going to mention his name just because I'm extra sensitive to whatever pain he's gone through because now I know what that's like. I'll just second guess what to place them without sharing his name again. But I just remember screaming one day at the computer screen, as I was reading the latest article about this, just thinking, "Just repent. You've led us in so many things. You've led me in so many things. How to use the arts and church, how to be a leader, how to do so many things, just lead in repentance." And as I was reflecting on that, I heard God say to me, "Yeah, you're the guy. You're the guy. Me." God, that's like, "Can I be the guy who does like men's ministry? Can I be that guy? Can I be the guy that does like camping? Can I be the guy that just kind of grows a church and stays with it for beyond three decades? Can I be like all kind of things I'd like to be the guy for like this one? This is like it to be the guy for? I don't know if I'll get to be the guy for other things or not. But he said, "Yeah, this is your job. You're going to do it what other brothers of yours have not been one to do." So once I got that, it became a mission for me. So I asked to do that. That was my thing. People were all pissed off because they thought the board made me do that. The board did not make me do that. It was my idea. The board did not see what I was going to say and did not improve it, did not put in my eyes. That was all me. And so if anybody was upset, what I did or what I said, be upset at me. Was anybody else with me? Because I felt called to do that and I'm glad I did do it. So what were you like doing every day during that whole six month time? Well the beginning of it was literally just sitting around waiting for another shooter

to drop, wondering what's going on. I don't understand what's going on. And you're just fretting. I mean, you know you shouldn't be worrying and fearing, but it's pretty hard not to worry and free and fear. When you're cut out of all conversations and all knowledge, and you're just sitting around by yourself. So the beginning, that's all it was like, what is going on here? How do I, having friends prop me up and process with them and just doing whatever you need to do and people would look at me like, "Man, you're ripped." Like, "No, I'm getting my ass kicked and I'm not freaking eating." That's what it turns out. It turns out there's some people who stress eat. There's other people who, when the stress is on them, they don't eat it. Well, I guess that's me. That's the beginning phase. And then the next phase was you hearing information and getting with independent investigators and listening to, answering hours and hours of questions and wondering where that's going and having debriefing meetings with that and having just board meetings of what's next, and then asking me, "What do you want to happen coming out of here?" And a lot of discussions on that and then trying to buy my own personal health, getting counseling from Jenny Allen, who was in for the revival, recommended him highly and Matt Chandler did to a good friend of mine, who's actually going to be with us next week, recommended Kurt Thompson, an attorney out of D.C., an attorney, excuse me, a counselor, counselor out of D.C., and it's done a lot of spiritual formations that spent many hours with him, digging his stuff, talking about my story, being emotional with him, all that stuff. I had some mentoring film conversation with Henry Cloud, just a great guy. A guy set me up with him and he's helped me through some things, and just a lot of prayer and planning and what you want the future of your life to be like. And reconciliation means talking to people here in their story. So there was a lot. The poor was very clear that this was not a sabbatical. going to just have some downtime and we're going to pay for you to have some experiences. Maybe take a seminary course, maybe go over to England and see places of revival and that sort of stuff. They're very close. It's not a sabbatical, it was a leave. I am alleviated of my normal duties and responsibilities, why I did some of these things that were not fun the moment, but ultimately healthy and profitable.

Yeah, we've had some conversations about all the, like you've been hearing from God in some pretty fresh ways over, over all of this. That seems like one of the benefits of repentance, right? If you're turning towards God, then he's going to have something to say to you. I'd love to hear, like, what are some of the things that you've, in ways you've encountered that? That's a really good word, Windex. I'm ashamed of saying, yeah, gosh, had I not had that repentant heart with some of these same moments have happened? I haven't. That's a good word. I don't know. I will give you a couple. I was, I knew I was in a crisis, like it's a cataclysmic pressure point. And the last one I was in, which any leader was in, was back there in COVID. And I got through COVID, okay, but once I got my mind around me, I thought, you know, I wish I had to behave different in COVID, I wish I would have leaned into Bible passages that talk about the desert and things like that to a greater degree. There was, I was being persecuted because I wasn't saying this, or I should be saying that I should have leaned more into persecution passages instead of being upset and hurt. I thought like, man, there's, there's a whole vein of biblical data I could have gone down to minister to myself and gird myself. I, I'm only missing. So I had that thought one day I thought, okay, I'm doing it again. Here I am. I'm kind of going inward. I'm thinking all these things. I need to, I need to go outside of myself. I need to, I need to, yeah, I need to get my head someplace different. So I went up, Lib was recovering from her radiation stuff.

She was having a bad cancer recovery day, which by the way, she's doing really well. Have you seen her recently? Like a month ago? Yeah. Looks good, huh? She's got a shine in her eyes. She does. She's got a smile on her face. I always got the shine. She does. She's, she's got it going on. Yeah. So I was, I was just with her sitting there. She was having a horrible day. This was not going well. She was in bed. I was sitting in the chair beside the bed. And I thought, you know, I'm not, I need to get my head different place. I'm going to go down and study my little sitting room and see what, if God has anything for me. So I go down and I do, I don't recommend Bible roulette, but I did Bible roulette. I took my, I took my Bible and I went right to it. And there it was, Psalm 91. Do you know that Psalm, Wendy? No, I was just, I was excited to hear what you're about to say. Yeah. Well, let me, let me go ahead and read it or at least read portions of it for us. I just, I went, I went to the, I went to the, I went to the Bible to put it right there. And this was the first thing, top left center, left page, top left of, of a, a, a, a, a, parchment says this.

He who dwells in the shelter the most high will abide in the shadow of the almighty. I will say to the Lord, my refuge and my fortress, my God in whom I trust. He will deliver you from the snare of the Fowler from deadly pestilence. He will cover you with his pinions and under his wings, you will find refuge, his faithfulness is a shield and a buckler. You will not fear the terror of the night nor the air of the flies by day and I won't read the rest of it nor pestilence. It's all good. And I've read this. I was just going to weep you like, oh my Lord, Lord, that's, I need to be under wings. The, the pinions are the, are the feathers on the end of the wings that give them guidance in flight. So you're getting underneath them and, you know, we know there's a lift because the wings is a lift. If you're under him, there's going to be a lift from you, not just a for you, not just a shielding you from the elements, but there's going to be a lift in his pinions. He's going to help guide you. But you're there under his, under his thing. And so I think, oh God, it's so good, I'm, oh my gosh, Lord, that was for me. Yeah. You did buy for 11. It was perfect. Then I get a text. I get a text from this couple. I know them well enough that I have their, that they have my number. know there, but we don't we don't talk that much. They went through a mass they've been to the ringer. And the guy said to me, I won't share names. He just said, hey, my wife and I independently of one another felt prompted by the Holy Spirit. And this is a finance guy, this is not kind of language, generally finance guys use, right? So both felt prompted by the Holy Spirit to give you Psalm 91. Like how was that five minutes after? That was an hour or so

later. But he said, we tried sending it to your email, but it didn't go through. It might have been the exact minute that they came and said to you. So then I'm like, boo, hoo. And I am just, I am just that thing has carried me. And then I had a meeting just to finish that one, the rest of the story. A few months later, I had a meeting that was going to be a really critical meeting I knew for my future. And I wasn't sleeping very well. We should probably just refer people to the talk that I gave in May, where I talk about how I was been sifted. I don't need to go unless you want to put in the show notes, right? Yeah. But I had a meeting that was a really important meeting. And I wasn't sleeping all that well. And I thought, I've got to, I've got to be on my game for this meeting. So I took a nap in the afternoon. I had nothing to do anyway. I couldn't go to work or anything, not used to have to do naps. But yeah, that's okay. Take a nap. Lib comes up behind me. She taps me on the head, wakes me up, points out the window. The closest window to where I am is a massive turkey vulture, a massive turkey vulture. Looking at me with his arms spread wide, and his pinions are out. It's on the railing. It's about eight feet away from me. It was fewer from the from the window. Now, I had a turkey vulture incident about a year earlier, out in my backyard, there was a dead deer. And I didn't know it. And the turkey vultures came in. And their nature is garbage disposal. And what they do, what at least they did in the backyard, a couple centuries went up in the highest tree they could and on my roof and stood there with their arms wide, wide open, telling all their buddies, Hey, here I am. Here I am. Come here, food here, food here. And every turkey vulture in the county must have come. And they just destroyed it. And the next morning I went out, there was no skull left. There was no hide left. There was no ribs. It was it was gone, gone, gone, gone, gone. I thought about that turkey vulture. There is no reason for a turkey vulture to spread open its wings and look into a window, especially when there's a hunter lives in there. It's like that's like turkey vulture here from God. God says, Hey, I need you to I need you to go up there. I need you to spread open your wings and just kind of look at that guy. Turkey vulture is like, why? God says, well, because I need you, I just need you to do that. Just trust me. Turkey vulture goes, you know, that guy's a hunter, right? I see him with death, our objects all the time around here. So God says, I know, I know, I'll protect you. But my son needs to know that I'm protecting him. That's the conversation I was imagining and my thing. So I leaned on that a lot and I still reflect on that. So there was, there was a bunch of moments like that, or as you'd like to say, moments like that. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a little got a little Northern kind of accent to it. Right. I think one thing I've thought because we work together and we're great friends and we've all had our own kind of journey on this. There's been points in all this where I'm like, God, where are you? You know, and I was pointing towards the Christmas story of all things, right? Where the movie or the actual in the Bible, like the story in the Bible, where there's this thing happening and we're reading it from a 50,000 foot view and we can see all what's going on. But every single person is just getting these wacky things that they don't, it don't make any sense, right? That like this guy speaks to an angel and he talks back to the angel and he can't, he can't talk for six months. Well, John the Baptist, his son is born and then these shepherds just have angels just show up and like, I feel like I've since that in little moments where we don't know what the whole big picture of things, but God is just showing up in these little places and pointing, and pointing us just enough to say, this is what I need you to do. This is what I need you to do. It feels like I'm seeing that just hearing that in your story too, which is, yeah, it's real encouraging. Like it turns out God maybe still cares about us, you know, even the midst of our own mistakes and our own all the different things. Well, you know, I want to, I wanted the end. Not only did I want this to, And when you're in the shit like that, now you don't even get to understand the end. All you get to do is that day, you get to walk with God as best you can and honor Him as best you can, that's all you do. I thought I died to self. That's a biblical idea. Apostle Paul says, I die every day. Meaning every day I count myself as a dead man. Jesus says, pay it up your cross and follow me. And if we count ourselves as dead men and dead women, then we're not gonna get upset when we don't get our way 'cause I should be dead. We're not gonna get upset when someone doesn't do

what we want them to do because no, I died to that. I thought I died to self, but a situation like this brings a whole bunch of things to you. Like I didn't die to my reputation. I had a really great reputation. Now I don't, at least not with some people. I thought, okay, am I dying to crossroads? Am I dying to my day job? If that goes away, is that okay? How much is that part of my identity or how much is that necessary for me to have the life I think I need? If I died to that, if I died to my current standard of living, you go, well, if I'm done here, I'm like I'm from my house, call it a realtor. I don't know how much I sell this house for, it downsides, gets some cash, I figure my next thing in life. And those are all really hard questions and hard decisions, hard conversations. But if you're not going into all those things, having settled that God doesn't owe me anything. And what I get for following him is a cross. That's what I get. I was with some pastors who I get with monthly, some of the passions since now, they're really good dudes. And one of them, Paul Taylor from Rivers Crossing, he said, hey, look, he said, guys, what are we talking about here? We follow a bloody and beaten savior.

That's what we get. We say, well, I'm gonna be a Christ follower. He didn't get accolades and riches. He got beaten and he got a cross. So why are we surprised and offended when we get something that comes close to it? And I get nailed to cross on it and get physically beaten. But yeah, you wrestle with those things that you don't wrestle with when you're on the top of your game and having a beach on the beach. - Yeah. - A vacation on the beach. - Right. You know, one thing I love about these microphones, they make my voice sound a little bit deeper. - Yes. - 'Cause normally I'm like. - Aye, aye, aye, aye, aye. - Does my voice sound deeper? - Your voice sounds slightly deeper. - Okay. - Does mine sound deeper? - No, your fellow is mine. - Does it sound deeper now? - No. - No, it does. No, you're talking like that. - Just 'cause I have headphones out. I don't know. - We do have the Wildcat Bob, Bob Wildcat.

- Yeah, it just kind of goes up and down. - Yeah, yeah. - Look at that. What was that comedian saying? - Bobcat Goldwade. - Yeah, that's right. - Police Academy movies all that? - Yes. - What ever happened to him? - Oh, he's probably dead. - Yeah, maybe. - I don't know. So this whole repentance thing is like a process. It's like a choice that you make and a continued set of choices you make. Like where are you in the midst of it? Like, I don't know, put a percentage to it or can you even do it? - I don't think repentance is a process. - I think repentance is immediate. - Okay. - I think it's an immediate decision you make, an immediate prayer that you make, immediate thing of making some new resolutions. I think it's immediate and you're immediately clean with God. - Yeah. - It's interesting, according to the Bible, you don't even have to ask God for forgiveness. You're forgiven. You can confess your sin,

but my forgiveness comes from what Jesus has done across me. My forgiveness doesn't come from saying the right prayer where you're remembering what I say, you know? So the repentance process, being right with God, recognizing what Jesus has done for me, He's taken the cross for me, so I don't have to take the cross. That's immediately, but what takes longer is the process to make things right with other people. There were some other people who I had hurt that were outside of the riding crop incident entirely, just with some of my intensity and some other thing. The jokes I told in bad places and making that right, those reconciliation, that goes on. And what also goes on is, okay, if I'm gonna form new habits, you gotta form some new habits, sometimes that takes a while, but the releasing of your guilt and believing God's good with you, that's immediate. - So I know part of your process is having a lot of hard conversations with people who had a grievance or who you would hurt, talk through what did that look like? - So when the board started getting [BLANK_AUDIO] in the church or on staff, we really focused on the ones that were on staff.

And not all those people were understanding, really hurt and not sure they wanted to talk to me because they felt vulnerable. I mean, I'm the top dog in the organization, you know, there's a lot of power there. There's a lot of intimidation there. I don't like to think of it that way. But I can be very intimidating just because I'm the top of the organization, you know. So those folks were protected and I didn't know who those people were. I got themes of what some of the things were and I like the themes with some of the things were. And I was like, I'll get intense and by intense and you've heard it, you've seen, you've probably heard me say, I've said this a number of times and it's not helpful or it's not healthy at all. It normally happens when I think I've been clearing instructions and they haven't been followed. I think, I think that, I think that. And I've said before, like this, how does this keep happening? Tell me, do I fire somebody who is who do I need to fire? That's pretty intense. You know, saying that and I had to go back and go, okay, who do I say that to? Yeah. I know I said that. I know I said that. What was the context for those? And yeah, that would be hurtful and especially why it's hurtful, like some people in your business right now, if your boss is that intense or something like that, you might go, or especially in the blue collar industry, you're like, what is that? That's not intense. Yeah. I'll tell you what intense is. I'll tell you what intense is.

I'll tell you what intense is. Well, the difference here, the difference here isn't that this is a church. That's not the difference. The difference is, is for these people, and this is their words, I am their spiritual father. They can trace their faith to initiating with me, or their faith was nascent and just ill-formed and under my teaching leadership, they've grown it, they've, I am, I am a spiritual father to them. That's not my words. That's their words. And what sunken to me was, oh, wow, yeah, I gave up being intense with my kids a long time ago. I just, Jake, the most, in fact, I got intense with my son one time the last six months, because he was, he was not agreeing with something, he was trying to support me, he wasn't agreeing with how I was being passive on this thing. And I could feel myself starting to get amped up and I was like, oh, I cannot get, as I just, I laid it until I stopped, and then I felt like, oh, I, I, I started getting emotional. Say I'm sorry, give them a hug, because I was like, man, I, I get intense with my kids. I know it doesn't help, like, we're all grown adults, and I did that with my spiritual children. I don't, there's never, never, there was no reason these situations should be as tense as I did. It just is amped up beyond what it should be, how they hear it, because I'm their spiritual father. You know, and that came into real clarity and was very hurtful, very hurtful to me to go out, man, I did, I did, I brought, I brought pain on, on some spiritual children of mine. And so those were, those are painful meetings when you're seeing how you've heard somebody, and it was a board member that was there who was, therefore, safe, and yeah, we had multiple days of, some of those in a row, just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And it was cleansing, though, too. It was, it was very helpful and very healthy, and I'm really thankful for that.

And I'm really thankful for the people who, who have been hurt and had the courage and strength to go, hey, this, this hurt me. Let's talk about this. Tell me about the, like, who all of you talked to about this and through this, who's been helpful for you these last few months? I should probably give, I'll give some names, this because they've been so awesome to me. My family's been phenomenal. When students just started, I called a family meeting and I called them all in, and I told them, here's what you're going to be hearing the internet, here's what's going to happen, here's what has happened, I want to tell you everything, don't want you to hear anything from somebody out of the me. out, you know. So my family is... my kids than I ever have. Hey, that's a benefit. That's right. It's like, Dad, I do. What's going on? More than ever. It's been really, really, really cool. They've been great. The people who walk closest with me on this is Log in 512, Steve Smith and Judd Watkins. I don't think we've had Log on this podcast. We had Log. If we had him on the podcast, we'd have to turn the bike up real hard. There's some talks really, really slow, low, really low. But what he says is good. I know. If you can hear it, it's amazing. I know, right. Those guys, I talk with Log once twice a day for months straight, just hearing me, hearing

me cry, hearing me, whatever. Jeff Tucker came over to the house, came over and was helping me with a Power Wagon, the project that I'm doing, and he would just be there, just be there to just be with me. One time, I don't know if I told you this story, but we were doing something. We're trying to get the hood aligned on this 1952 Dodge Power Wagon. And I know what I'm doing. I'm doing this to distract myself, to give me something purposeful to do. The hardest thing of the last six months is having no purpose. It's just waiting and sitting and doing hard work. So the Power Wagon was something distracting me. Oh, I made purpose today. I got the hood on. I ground some more rust off. I did all that stuff. So he said something and I started laughing as I was laughing. And I remembered, oh, this is why Jeff's here, and this, as long as his project is just to distract my mind from how horrible this is, and I go crying right there in front of him. He saw a good bit of those. And then 512 is awesome. The interesting thing of 512, I was co-founder of Man Camp, and it's just phenomenal close for it. 512 is a fighter. A hard-scrabble background, drywall contractor, he's always for a fight. So he was up for a fight for whoever or wherever it was. And I knew I had to limit my processing with him, and I told him this. I said 512, man, I love you, but you're a fighter. And there's going to come a time I'm going to need to fight, but right now I can't be in fight mode because when I'm in fight and anger mode, I can't hear from God. And so if you find I'm not saying stuff, it's not just I'm trying to protect myself. And he understood that.

And that season didn't last long. He's back in the know of everything and everything. And then some other people just came in from outside who were friends of mine, but became much, much, much, much, much closer friends of mine, Vito Pareno, Scott Phillips, Ben Bichire, my finance guy, because I'm trying to figure out where my finance stuff is going. And yeah, I'm very rich. And you and I very, very tight, but I couldn't, I was not supposed to talk to staff for a long season. So I was like a close friend with you, but you and I really couldn't talk, and that was tough for me. Yeah. That's tough. In your, the clip that we watched earlier, you said, Hey, I'm coming back and some of it is how God made me, but in some ways, it's the, it's, it's a new me or whatever. What's, what's the same and what's different? Well, what's different? What's different? I am just more mindful of what's appropriate, what's inappropriate. One of the things I did that was just really just horrible. I didn't, I even forgot I did it because I just let things fly. It's kind of what my brand is. I aggressively say stuff without even fully thinking of it. There's a joke I've told, I think at every man camp and at least two couples camp, couple camp, which kills the Amish joke. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It kills every, even couples camp because it's about sexual tension in marriage. It's Amish couple. I'm not going to care right now, but it's been really good. Well, we were at our revival revival where we had thousands of people and it felt like

a camp environment. And I was, it was a phenomenal experience. And I kicked in the autopilot and I told the, I told the Amish joke, well, it wasn't the same. It wasn't adult. There were kids there. There were people, kids there. And I'm introducing people to sexual content, kids of sexual content when they haven't even talked about that stuff. And I forgot, and I didn't even know that it happened. It happened, what was that? Nine months earlier, or something like that, but there was a massive bruhaha baraya I wasn't even aware of. So, yeah, I am gonna be much more watchful of all this stuff. But, I don't actually find all the same things funny I found seven months ago. I don't, some of, yeah, I don't. What's not gonna change? My heart to push is not going to change. My heart to connect with normal guys and have a masculine tongue. That's not going to change. It shouldn't change. I think the most overall encompassing and the most impactful for my actions going forward is that the primary role that I feel is that of a spiritual father. I've filled the role of megachurch pass

or gigachurch pass, or I've filled the role of, you know, camping guy, men's ministry guy, not that any of those are going away, but it's a different lens to say, really what I am right now is I'm not a man who's graduated from boyhood, which is kind of the signature book that helps to make people in the five marks of a man. There's 18 year old men and there's 38 year old boys, you know? But that whole like manhood thing, I'm still, I have a heart for men, I want to build into men, but really the overarching narrative I think for me is I'm a spiritual father more than anything. And my ministry needs to reflect that, which is why really I think much of this pain happened. The original instant of the riding crop, you know, I think he viewed me as a spiritual father, which made it that much more violating. The people who I had intense words for made it more hurtful. It was, if it was a, you know, a cop on the side of the road, probably wouldn't have heard them, but you know, but their spiritual father, their spiritual father did. And I don't think that's just a way to modify, I don't think there's a way to modify behavior, it's a way for me to really lean into my potency. People need a father and I've been a father to people

accidentally without trying to be how much more helpful can I be to people? If I know, that's really the role that I get to play and that people need. Man, it's a powerful thing when you have a father figure. Gil Hopkins, one of my father figures, Denny Patton was on this podcast, father figure. That's a, those are not DNA guides, right? But that role is really strong. So I'm trying to wear that more prevalently and I'm trying to walk in that. I think that's a game, I think that's a game change. For I cry more easily, I've cried more in the last six months, I had the previous 60 years of my life because God's done a work on my heart. I have more of a heart for the hurting that I've ever had, a heart for the hurting. And I think that's the father's heart, you know, not just the capital F father's heart, but it's just my heart to people who look to me as a spiritual father. And if you don't look to me as a spiritual father, just look to me as a brother or a good dude. That's great, awesome. But I think being a spiritual father is really the key identity that I'm gonna be wearing and trying to operate in as I go forward. That sounds awesome. I mean, we need fathers, right? Isn't there a description that says

you've got a lot of teachers, but you don't have many fathers. - Right, that was possible. - That's still true. - Right. - Well, what are you excited about now? Like, I feel like you're coming back, I see you around the office now, you're coming back, you preached last weekend, like what are you looking forward to? - I'm looking forward to being just used by God. You know, the problem, so hard is you're just, you have no purpose, you have no vision. There's ideas I want to do, but there's no vision 'cause you're just so focused on the crisis when tapping the moment, you just don't have time to dream and to think. I get vision and creative ideas when I have space and things are going well. You know, when I'm hunting and we were on that trip - Yeah. - And he breaks them and he's got a spiritual gift. You know, well, you should do that at our church. - Right. - You know, and Todd comes and horse weekend goes. You're, you go to a, you go to a Christmas play, a playhouse in the park with your wife, and you see the same show twice in a, twice in a year with Ebenezer Scrooge. You see the place packed and you think,

wow, what, man, Cincinnati is like traditional Christmas, or we should figure out a, we should figure out a Christmas story that's based on the actual Christmas story. And the weightage, which led to the weighted show, which was, what was it last year? I don't know, 25,000 people or something like that showed up that? - 100,000. - I thought we had over 100,000. - We had over 100,000. - I was well over 100. I said 125 or 150. - Whatever. - Oh yeah, gotcha, yeah. - So I'm really excited when next about just being able to dream again and put my heart into things again. I've never been more excited about a man camp than I am right now. You know, I'm really, really fired up about that right now. I'm really excited about, this is just show me that my, my end is near. I'm only, I'm only getting older. Not getting younger and being much more purposeful about, okay, who are the young, young bucks and the young doves who are around here that I need to pour into it to a greater degree to get us ready for the, for the next generation, get us ready for the next run.

Excited about that. And I'm just thankful and gracious. You know, it's a, it's a blessing to do, to do what I'm doing. I've been a manual labor before. You know, I've, I've slugged shingles on my shoulder up a, up a ladder for an entire morning before they had or at least before the contractor to work forward, hire the lift to come and put the shingles at the top of the crowd. Yeah, you're cheaper than the lift. Yeah, completely I was. And, you know, to come in here in air condition facility and sit in front of a microphone and just talk about spiritual things like gosh, it's a, it's a blessing to be able to do that. I'm just more aware of the good gig I have going on. Yeah, yeah. I had a lot of other moments with God. One of them, I was in the garage and it's why I thought that my run just could be done. You know, people could just be done with me. And I said to God, I said, said, Lord, man, if this is it, you give me a good run. You've been so kind to me. I've, I've done things that I never, never would have ever anticipated ministry. And I don't want to give the long list,

'cause it sounds like I'm bragging, but just so many things of a spiritual nature, of a physical nature, of a accomplishment nature, of a full-hearted emotional engagement measure. You know, with people when they died and with people when they just had a sort of resurrection and just accomplishments and things I've experienced wrong, there's so, I just, I actually took a journal like all of them, like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, and I just said to God, I said, God, if I'm done, it's been an amazing run. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. This has been unbelievable and I've gone further than I ever thought. And there's no other community of people who probably would have born with me for these 30 years. It's just great. So I guess what I would say is, no one should feel sad for me. No one should feel sad for me. This whole thing was of my own doing. I've come through it, a better person. I'm excited, I'm really excited about the future. I was able to have the idea of, man, let's do this the very first podcast. I want to get into a different gear of helping people. Not just, well, let's find the latest person to be taking an interview who really isn't all that interesting, but it's the best person we can find.

(laughing) Not that there's been a lot of those, but just my heart for the podcast is different. And how I'm looking forward to my future is different. And I'm excited about the future. And no one should be, if anyone comes away from this going, oh man, boo-hoo him, dude, and do that, you're not hearing me at all, please. Do not have any pity party for me. Do not try to rattle a stable for me. I don't need to defend, I don't need anything. It's just me talking my story. And I'm thankful for where I am right now. I'm thankful for what God's on me right now. I'm thankful for our board. I'm thankful for our board and how they've walked with me and showed me truth and grace. I'm thankful for staff and senior staff like Kyle Ransom, who've been with me for a long time and still with me. I'm thankful. I'm really, I'm thankful for what the future is. And I'm ready to make some aggressive moves with it. So that's where I am. Let's go, chop chop. - Yeah, let's do it. - Make some aggressive mistakes. We're not the same.

Let's make new ones. - Yeah, okay. - How about for aggressive mistakes? - That's been a saying, the kind of mistake that I, well, you know, around here, it's like whenever, whenever someone messes up, what does someone do to just make sure I don't get upset? - Those are aggressive mistakes. - Yeah, those are aggressive mistakes. I think, well, actually, that wasn't a aggressive mistake. That was just a dumb choice. - But yeah. - Yeah, so there's a lot of work to be done, a lot of good ministry to be done. - There is. - Give us a final word. What would you say to everybody who's been listening to this here in your story? What do you want them to know and what's next? - Well, I want you to know that if you've got your pain and bad decisions that's in your life, there's a way out of it. Take the hard way out of it. The easy way is denying it, covering it up, explaining it away. You don't have to agree with every accusation that comes to you. You don't have to, but what you can own and just be air on the side of owning what you can own. And I think I've done that.

I've made some bad decisions. I've had some inappropriate humor. And I've heard people. I've heard people. And I regret that. And I don't want to hurt, have those same sorts of offenses and hurts anymore. And I'm endeavoring not to. And yeah, am I different? Yes, I am different. You don't go through this and walk with God, I'm not different. Am I magic wand? All of the propensities I've had and habits I've had, are they magically gone? No, no, they're not. They're getting gone, some of them. Some of those things are probably not going to get gone. And I think God's okay with. But overarching thing, man, yeah, I've done some damage. And I highly regret that. And I've done all I can to make amends. And we'll continue to do that as it comes up. That's part of what you get if you want to follow in God's footsteps is you have to have that open, humble, contrite heart. And my heart is more open, humble and contrite than it's ever been. And I'm excited about the future, I really am.

And when if it's like that, if it's like that, and if you believe in the grace and empowerment of Jesus, you have to believe there's good coming. I was talking with Zach Allen, Jenny Allen's husband, and he said, "In the midst of his really, really dark time." Which I don't think came from his sin. It just came from like a season of depression. This counselor said to him, he said, "You know what's not always going to be like this, right?" And he went, "Boy, it was so good to hear." You know, yeah, you know what's always going to be. So if you have with these, you know, it's not always going to be like this. It doesn't have to be like this, but it is one of the things you can control. You can control whether or not you repent. You control whether or not you take steps of reconciliation. If there is reconciliation or not, that's not entirely on you. The other person has to want that. And you can't tell him something you don't believe, but it's a good thing as the Bible says. It's a good thing when brothers dwell in unity. And we should all want that. And I'm excited about just helping people the next season of my life. On the aggressive life, wherever it is, I'm excited about getting people to a new place. With fun, stupid stuff,

but also with meaty heart stuff that I want to do as a spiritual father. So that's what we're going to do. And actually starts next week was one of my pastor buddies who walked with me through this. There's a number of guys who said, "Hey, man, I'm here for you, I'm here for you." And a couple of them never dropped away. And Matt Chandler is one of them. I had a number of conversations. And he just called up out of nowhere, "Hey, man, how you doing what's going on?" And yeah, you find out what some people are made of. And then this, and he's made of top shelf stuff. He's a good friend of mine. So twice, he's speaking of man camp. So he'll be next week. So I think it's the end. - It's going to be great. - Do I have to cry again? - No, you can't even cry. - You can't even cry, then cry it on. - Twice, one and a half. - It was close. - Gellow Misty. - If we had had this conversation three months ago, it would have been tears all over the place. I would have said the exact same things if they were in more fresh and moron, there would have been tears all over the place.

You get to a point where you can say the same thing, you've kind of worked through it. And you also go like, I can muster up some tears here, I think. But it'd be, it'd be really inauthentic. So I'm just thankful everyone was willing to hear my story. That's the really real, I love y'all, I'm thankful for y'all. I know what we're gonna do. It's gonna be two dudes, two friends, who are just gonna talk and push each other and I can't wait for it. And welcome back to the aggressive life. We'll see you next time on the aggressive life. Oh, also, advertisement, go to mancamp.usa, mancamp.us. What, you know, you can figure it out. Go, son, I wanna see ya. It's gonna be the best one I've ever had. Me and my buddy are gonna lay it down and it's gonna be a lot of fun and intense. We'll see you next time on the aggressive life. (upbeat music) Thanks for joining us on this journey toward aggressive living. Find more resources, articles, past episodes, and more at brontome.com. My new book, A 60 Day Devotional Called, The Five Marks for Man, 60 Days to a Powerful Life, along with all the other books in the Five Marks library, are open right now on Amazon. Be sure to leave us a rating and review

wherever you listen to your podcast, then send an email to [email protected] to get a free aggressive life sticker. Find more on Instagram @brontome. The aggressive life is a production of Crossroads Church, Cincinnati, Ohio. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)