Should Christians Try to Legally Stop MOSQUES Being Built in Their City?! | Live Free with Josh Howerton

One of the most frequent questions that I've been getting in emails and DMs from just like Christians in the Dallas area. Should Christians organize to legally try to stop a mosque from being built in their city? There's a bigger tension here than you might think. Hey guys, welcome to a bonus episode of Live Free. Very frankly, I am always trying to figure out if the time investment that it takes to do these is worth the time investment. And so if this is helpful to you and you would like to see more of it, if you could, especially on YouTube, like, comment, and share, very frankly, that lets me know that it is actually helpful and that people actually do want to see more of it. So if you could do that, that'd be awesome. Without further ado, welcome to a bonus episode of Live Free. Let's talk about mosques. All right. All right, let's go for it. All right, we realized that there was so much here that we needed its own bonus episode. So by the way, I'll keep saying this, these bonus episodes, I'm gonna shoot y'all straight, they're extra work. And so if you're like, hey, this is actually helpful, we like it, keep it coming. Like, comment, share, especially comment like on YouTube.

I'm gonna shoot you real straight. It is extra work. And it's like, I'm always like, is the juice worth the squeeze? So that lets us know that it's actually helpful. All right. Now, does one of you guys want to set up what precipitated the episode we're about to do? No, you go. It's like the Spider-Man scene, everybody's pointing at each other. Great, great. All right, let me do it. I got it. Okay, okay. All right, I got it. All right, go ahead and toss up the picture. Toss up the picture, Trinity. So for those who are unaware, one of the most frequent questions that I've been getting in emails and DMs from just like Christians in the Dallas area, here's a question. Should Christians organize to legally try to stop a mosque from being built in their city? I'm gonna tell you where this episode's kind of going because there's a bigger tension here than you might think. Some of you are gonna listen to this and you're immediately gonna be like, well, of course not. We're religious liberty people. Like the whole thing is that Islam

is the religion of imposition and Christianity is the religion of invitation. Of course, of course not. You know, First Amendment. I'm gonna talk about that here in a second. Others of you, honestly, even as I say it, I'm gonna get to what precipitated this here in a second. Others of you, you're going, duh. You're going like, you know, I'm a dumb rural Kentucky kid with a Bible on my lap and we're like kind of against demon worship and overtaking cities where my grandkids gotta grow up. Like, duh, idiot. So like, let me just start out. There is actually a tension here that I think Christians are trying to figure out what the heck do I think about this? And it precipitated things like this. So this, I'll read the headline and then Carlos, I'm gonna voluntold you to explain what precipitated it. Yeah, of course, I'd love to. Okay, so this, what happened in McKinney, which we may or may not have a campus coming in McKinney soon, you know, may or may not, recently literally has become national news, which has precipitated in people asking this question. Here's what it is. Now here's how it was framed by a very sort of progressive secular outlet.

How, quote, anti-Sharia, that's in scare quotes. It's like mocking the people who said that. Crusaders, another word that's a bit of a scare word, turned a city council meeting into pure chaos. The subtitle, city council members unanimously approved the expansion of a nearly 30-year-old mosque over the, yeah, that's mostly true, over the objections of angry residents riled up by right-wing messaging, da-da-da-da. That's how it was framed. Now, Carlos, do you wanna give the, or do you just want me to go to the clip that explains it? No, no, go ahead, keep going. Hold on, hold on. Bro, freaking Grog is not loading. He doesn't have to. He was like, yeah, I was like, great. I'm ready to give it to you. I'm gonna give it up. I'm gonna get him. Freaking Grog's taking forever. My script is not loading, guys. I mean, I could try, but, you know. Man, you know that's how I write all my sermons. Yeah, that's right. Oh my gosh. That is not true. That is a joke, everybody. Yeah, heads up. That is definitely not true.

That is a joke. Okay, actually, I'll just, here it is. Yeah, go ahead. So this is CBS News. I'm not gonna play the whole thing. Here's just a quick setup. That's a great setup, yeah. Starting McKinney tonight. This is where neighbors argued tonight, full-throated, over plans to build a new mosque. And it all kicked off when a U.S. Congressman chimed in. You heard him at the top there. The property, as it's proposed, would sit right near Virginia Parkway and Crutcher Crossing. The McKinney Islamic Association says it wants to build a dedicated prayer area, gym, classrooms, cafeteria, and a community space. The group wants to develop the new property to accommodate their growing community, they say. All right, now, boss. So that, I mean, that's a good general overview. Now, wait, Trini, I'm gonna ask you to click forward here in a second, so just stay right there. So what's happening, what happened that became national, like, mega-viral, you know, very much national news. I'm gonna let you just honestly click to, like, wherever you want, about three quarters of the way through the video, because I just wanna show people how contentious it became. 5.6 acres, three buildings, it was gonna be a mosque,

it is gonna be, mosque, classrooms, gymnasium. At this city council meeting, which you're gonna see in about 30 seconds, became extremely contentious. And let me just get this out there. There were some Christians there who did not conduct themselves like disciples of Jesus Christ. Let me just get that out there. I watched some of this stuff, and I'm like, hey man, that is not, that's not team Jesus character, even if you had convictions that you felt were on the right way. It ended up, there were over 100 speakers at the thing, it lasted for four hours, and the background on it is this, no, actually, just, like, I don't know, like, right there, do it right there. Now really quick, pause, pause, pause, pause, pause. You're gonna see a video, sorry, Trent. You're gonna see a video, look at the dude in the front row left, white shirt, long hair. I'm gonna play a video of this guy. That guy is the thing that went, like, the most mega-viral. That guy came to this meeting because he is an Iranian Christian that escaped some Islamic leadership in his home country, and what he said, it honestly, gosh, it shook folks. So just watch that guy as this guy that's talking, I'll watch this whole clip, the guy that's talking is actually speaking in favor of the proposal. Now, just play a couple seconds, we don't need to play the whole thing.

Here's the McKinney-Islamic Association. Sharia is understood as a personal religious framework that guides prayer, fasting, charity, marriage, family life, and personal ethics. Watch the Iranian guy, he's saying, that's a lie, that's a lie. Every religion and every culture have its extremists and radicals, and they should be condemned wherever they exist. But that is not who we're talking about. Pause, that's enough. You can kind of get a vibe, like, got a little rowdy. And let me just say, we just covered in our last episode, I do just want to gently say to Christians, we are commanded in the book of 2 Timothy to, quote, correct opponents with gentleness and respect, and to be people who conduct ourselves with a spirit of power, and of love, and of self-control. So that's just a gentle thing, okay? Now, the reason, if you're not from Texas, like, some people are gonna even wonder why they're doing an episode about this. If you're not from Texas, because of significant Muslim immigration, somebody look up. I mean, you can't. Go ahead. Go ahead, no, no. Go ahead. Somebody look up the estimated number

of immigrants from Islamic countries, like, I don't know, do like the last 20 years in the DFW area. Good luck with that. I got it, I got it. The reason that this is becoming a big thing, especially in Dallas, go ahead and toss that picture up. I've showed this on the Raymond Ibrahim episode, which was fascinating. The reason it's becoming a thing is all that is, that's the number of new mosques in the Dallas area. From what I understand, those are just the ones that have been constructed or renovated in the last three years. So it's becoming like a thing. There are actually two church buildings that once were significant churches that have been purchased and then have become mosques. So this is resulting in a bunch of people asking a bunch of questions. What'd you got? Yeah, so population estimates, there's technically no official census regarding this, but this is what data says, 2,000, roughly 115,000 people in the DFW area. In 2015? And the year's 2000. And then in 2010, 400,000. 2020, 300,000. Current range between 340,000 and 500,000,

depending on the source. Now, let me put that in perspective. So let's say it's half a million. To put that in perspective, the total estimated population of the DFW area is 7 million. So that's one out of every 14 people, if my math is correct and my mom's a math teacher. So hope I got it right. Okay, so here's the question. The Christians that showed up at that meeting, did they do the right thing? Posture aside, the question we're trying to answer is, did they do the right thing or did they do the wrong thing? Now, I do have a spot I'm gonna land, and I'm not an idiot. I know that wherever that is will be a smidge controversial. So can I just take a few minutes and kind of walk through some of the tensions? Do you guys wanna set up any of the other tensions that you think are here? I'll let you do it first. You hit the tension well. In terms of man, there's religious liberty. And that's not just because of, honestly, First Amendment. Again, this is a longstanding Christian conviction. Like you said, we're a faith that does not impose, we invite. And so there's that stuff there. But then also, again, I think the posture is, man, we've seen, in addition to just the fact that we should oppose any kind of demonic worship.

or any kind of false worship, man, we have seen now thousands of years of history of what happens when Muslims do eventually become the majority of a nation, because they then do impose. And so, but I also see this, not just this sense of like, man, should we take a stand because we want to stand against false worship, but also just practically and strategically for our kids and our grandkids and great grandkids, future and so on and so forth. So, there's some tensions here, and it's how do we resolve tensions, so. Yeah, Pastor Josh, you also talked about the difference between the role of the individual and the role of government. This is gonna be a huge thing right here, what you just said. But then, what we're talking about right now, it feels like there's a little bit of also like an overlap between those two roles. And so, this is where the tension happens is like, well, should Christians in some ways leverage government to help, in this case, stop the building of, or the expansion of these mosques, or not because of what you're about to explain? Yeah, let me just set this up, and let me start, I'm gonna start working through some concepts.

And let me just say, if you're a Christian, whether you like it or not, you are going to have to learn to think about things like this in the next 20 years. Yes. You are no longer afforded the luxury of not having an answer to this question. It's interesting, dude, I was talking to, I won't say his name because I don't have permission, but I was texting with, honestly, one of the most prominent pastors in America in the last, let's say, 20 years last night. And he was saying to me, he's like, hey, man, when I first started doing this thing 30 years ago, pastors weren't, they didn't even know, really, how to preach a sermon about somebody that struggled with same-sex attraction, or how do I, do I go to a gay wedding? They didn't even know. Nobody, that thing wasn't a thing. And he said, man, when I started doing my thing in the pulpit, he was like, what I realized was pastors were answering questions nobody was asking anymore, and they weren't prepared to answer the questions everybody was asking now. And honestly, man, I kind of feel like we're at a juncture in our culture where there's some new questions getting thrown at you.

You do not have the luxury of not having an answer to these questions anymore. So let me start walking through these things. Okay, number one, we're gonna begin here with a legal question on this, and I did more research for this little bonus episode than probably was healthy. I just got interested. First of all, principle, the question isn't only what is legal for a Christian when they're evaluating things. I will point this out, both slavery and abortion via Roe v. Wade federally were illegal for enormous parts of our nation's history. Christians did not just sit around and go, well, you know what? Give to Caesar what's Caesar's, submit to a governing authority. No, no. Christians wisely went, oh, that's an unjust and ungodly law. Martin Luther King Jr., by the way, in his letters from Birmingham jail, he specifically correctly points out that laws are only valid to the degree that they reflect the laws of God. So with Roe v. Wade and slavery, we worked for 50 years to overcome what was federally legal, and we fought a war to overcome what was federally legal. So for Christians, the question is not only what is legal.

Now, anything there? Okay, you're in a spot. You can, you guys interject when you like. Now, here's the misconception. What makes this legal? What goes into this? So here's the misconceptions. What some people would say is, man, Josh, this is the United States of America. We have the first amendment, which I'm gonna read here in a second. And in America, we believe in religious liberty, which means we treat all religions equally. Let me just go ahead and get this out. And this is where people will disagree with me and they can be wrong. That is not what the first amendment originally was intended to say. So let me read this to you. This is the first amendment. So what I'm doing right now is I'm trying to logically walk you through the progression of thought that leads to an intelligent Christian answer to this question, okay? The first amendment reads this. It says, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, okay?

Now, the misconception is, oh, hey, Josh, that means in America, we have to treat all religions equally with no favorites. Okay, now, if you wanna deep dive on this, you need to go listen to the two episodes with Tim Barton. The concept of the United States government treating all world religions equally with no favorites, my brother in Christ, that is simply ahistorical. It's like not a thing. We could spend entire episodes just on this. I'll just rapid fire some things. These are after the establishment of the first amendment. 11 of the 13 states in the original 13 colleges. when he's had official state churches, 11 to 13. I'm just gonna, I'll just do this for, this is just fun for me. For instance, Delaware, Delaware State Constitution, I'm gonna read it to you. Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house or appointed to any office or place of trust shall make and subscribe the following declaration. Bro, this will blow your mind. I, name, do profess faith in God the Father and in Jesus Christ, his only son, and the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed forever, and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration. So in order to hold public office in Delaware,

you had to do that. Here's Pennsylvania, and I won't belabor this. To hold public office, you had to swear, I do believe in one God, the creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and the punisher of the wicked, and I acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be given by divine inspiration. By the way, Benjamin Franklin helped write that. I'll just say that. You got stuff like, what I'm trying to do here in just a quick riff is help a Christian listener understand the government has all caps, not historically interpreted the First Amendment to mean we treat all religions equally. It has not done that. Up until, dude, I think it was the mid 1900s, actually, I think this actually went up past World War II. We had blasphemy laws on the books that prosecuted people for blasphemy against Jesus Christ. They did not prosecute people for blasphemy against any God for Jesus Christ. We had what, like, bro, like some of us, like we were alive when some of this stuff happened to our parents. There were what's called blue laws. Do you know what a blue law is, Paul? It's not alcohol?

Blue law, well. Sabbath? Sabbath laws. Obviously, we still have, he's lying, Paul's lying. Hold on, hold on, I just want to take a moment where I know the answer to something about U.S. history that Paul, Chad G. Paul C. Cunningham did not know. Go ahead, keep going. Grock working a little faster for his band. No, bro, I didn't get you, Grock. I'm joking, I'm joking. I'm proud of you, Carlos, I'm proud of you. Okay, keep going, keep going. There were laws on the books still, actually, not when I was alive, but our parents, 1961, legally prohibiting, and dude, I think some of these things, residual things are still around for this. Legally prohibiting people from being open on the Christian Sabbath in our nation. The Supreme, bro, this is the one that blows people's minds. I love telling people this, it blows their minds. The Supreme Court has ruled multiple times on the basis of the United States, quote, being a Christian nation. If you want a fun little Google, go Google the Holy Trinity versus the United States. It's a Supreme Court case. And they literally based their ruling on the sentence, this is a Christian nation. The Supreme Court of the United States did that.

We could do this all day. In the Treaty of Paris that established the United States as a nation, that was our treaty with the British, the Treaty of Paris literally begins, in the name of the most holy and undivided trinity, the United States government commissioned Christian missionaries to Native American tribes, Thomas Jefferson's school board, after the establishment of the First Amendment, chose the Bible and Isaac Watts' hymnal as the primary text they would use to teach kids how to read. So anyway, all I'm pointing out is, the First Amendment was not, what are you smiling at? No, no, I'm learning. All right, thank you. That's good stuff, bro. All right, that's good, thanks. Keep going. The First Amendment was, that's not what it meant, okay? So here's my point. The key to understanding, again, all this, I'm trying to walk you through this as a Christian. How should I understand, legally and biblically, how do I answer this question? Should Christians legally oppose mosque being constructed? The First Amendment reads this. The first word is, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

That amendment is about jurisdiction. Okay, here's what's important. It does not say, the state of Texas shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. It does not say, the city of McKinney shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, okay? So kind of if you zoom out, here's how it's been summarized. The founders of our nation, they wanted religious tolerance for all, but religious preference for Christianity. It was just sort of like the background assumption. Why are there laws about the Christian Sabbath and not, why are there blasphemy laws about Jesus Christ? Why is the United States Supreme Court saying, this is a Christian nation? Religious tolerance for all, but a generalized religious preference for like, hey man, this is like kind of obvious. Look around, this is kind of a Christian nation. It's kind of what they're doing. Now, all of that changed in 1947, okay? Now, I don't have time to go into the details of this. By the way, in what I'm getting ready to say, dude, this is not, we're not trying to get, quote, people accuse us of, quote, getting political. We're just trying to ask biblical questions, and we should apply the whole Word of God to the whole world, and that includes the civic realm, right? Okay. What I'm getting ready to explain to you is why when people roll their eyes at you as a Christian for, like, caring about elections because presidents appoint Supreme Court justices, if somebody's ever rolled their eyes at you for that, what I'm getting ready to explain should make you very firm in your conviction that you're

thinking correctly. All right. So until 1947, people generally understood, in general, if I understand correctly, that the First Amendment was just like, hey man, we don't want to establish a national church. We seceded, probably the wrong word, from Britain because we didn't want a state church, and we didn't want, like, Presbyterians fighting wars against Baptists. Like, hey, the nine of the thirteen states have state churches. We don't want Delaware to start fighting Pennsylvania as, like, an Anglican versus Presbyterian thing, and I don't know if those were, but you get what I'm saying. All right. Now, there was a court case in 1947 called Everson versus the Board of Education. The whole, I read, I became a total nerd this week and read all about this. There was, like, a deal where in the state of New Jersey they were using state money to help transport kids both to public schools and Catholic schools, and some guy who, you know, just had a sideways thing, he, like, sued the government, like, I don't want my tax money. No establishment of religion. Our tax money shouldn't be going to get kids to Catholic schools. And basically what they did is the Supreme Court in 1947, by the way, there was a Democratic president, a party, I'm talking about party, FDR, FDR did some good, awesome things. Winning World War Two, that's kind of a big win. Got, like, big fan of that. But then, hey, there's some things that maybe weren't as awesome. Hey, for you U.S. history buffs, the New Deal thing, like, radically escalated welfare state. FDR appointed, from what I understand, seven of the nine, this one president appointed seven of the nine Supreme Court justices that did the Everson versus Board of Education thing, okay? Now, what that Supreme Court did is, in this ruling, they, for the first time in American history, they reinterpreted what the First Amendment meant, and they reinterpreted the jurisdiction of where the First Amendment applied. So, number one, they reinterpreted the First Amendment to mean, now, from now on, we're gonna treat all world religions equally, and the government will have no favoritism toward any world government. Now, if you're a Christian, I'm just gonna speak in a very blunt way, what that now means is that you're, what they thought that meant, is that your government is now

legally required to treat religions of demons that are very, very bad for people in societies, in the same way that it treats the true religion, inspired by the Holy Spirit, that is very good for people in societies. And then, it also reinterpreted the jurisdiction, and it applied the First Amendment to every, basically, to every level of jurisprudence in America. So, it applied it to states and even local governments. Now, that one thing, dude, shaped the religious future of America more than almost anything in U.S. history. Now, let me pause. Any thoughts or questions here? What year did you say that was? 1947. 1947. 1947, okay? We good so far? Just a small detail to help people even understand, like, what's going on in McKinney and other places, because really, that is about zoning. Thank you. It's about zoning. Yes. And so, the idea is, like, not that they're gonna say you can't worship, but specifically where you can build what things. And so, there's this thing, I looked it up earlier, called the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act. Way too long of a thing. They got to shorten these kinds of things. It's like, yeah, it's abbreviated RLUPA or something like that. Yeah, or something like that. Basically, it's a law that prohibits local governments from imposing land use regulations that substantially burden religious exercise or treat one religious group less favorably. Bingo. All that stems from 1947, ever since. Exactly. So, before 1947, people would have generally been like, yeah, of course. Of course, the state can decide.

Because the concern of McKinney, like, maybe rightly, so in terms of legally, you'll get to this here in a bit, is they're like, well, hey, if we decide against them, and people have made it simply because they're Muslims, we will get sued for that. We'll probably lose. We might as well prove it. I just wanted to kind of give that context of why this is an issue in McKinney and other places. That's correct. Yeah. That's exactly right. Actually, I'll go ahead and pull my punch now. As you're gonna see, I'm gonna have a little more to say. say but I'm gonna go ahead and pull my punch and I do from what I understand there was probably not any currently legal grounds by which somebody could keep that from happening. Yep. So I'm just going to say that now. Hence the 7-0. Yeah it was a 7-0. That's right. 7-0 vote and you even had City Council members from what I understand saying things afterward like guys like I'm not sure that's what I wanted but I have to follow the laws that I'm supposed to you know do that kind of thing. All right now so there's a legal question but then there's the second question that Christian has is the biblical question like what should we want? Okay this is where I'm just gonna start pointing out some things are a little uncomfortable for like a 21st century American who has never lived under anything other than radical pluralism. We treat every religion the same way religions that worship demons and religions that worship Jesus and are actually true you know. So let me point a couple things out. It is interesting to me that in the Old Testament God grades kings by the buildings they permit. I'll just point this out. You have Asa, Jehoshaphat, Joash, Amaziah, Azariah, and Jotham who it specifically says this, they did what was right in the eyes of the Lord but the high places were not taken away. God specifically judges and disapproves how those kings governed on the basis of hey man you allowed the construction of things that facilitated the worship of false gods in the nation. Not awesome. God goes not awesome. Now I'll take it

a step further now I'm gonna have a counterpoint here in a second so just track with me. Also you got two kings in fact the only two kings and if I remember right that essentially were like hey dude they crushed it where God goes they crushed it Hezekiah and Josiah and what is specifically mentioned as one of the reasons God goes they crushed it they quote removed the high places. In other words they made sure that the worship of false gods was not facilitated in the nation. Okay now let me say one last thing and again dude pastors don't have to try to be controversial they just got to read Bible verses and this is one of those but let me just let me just if you're a Christian I just want to encourage you with something you need to decide in your heart you will never apologize from something God says in His Word. Yes. You're not embarrassed of it so I'm not embarrassed I am not embarrassed you just need to decide that in your heart. A third thing that kind of goes into this is we need to speak plainly from the New Testament other religions are demon worship. I'll just read the Bible verse okay in fact let me say it like this other religions are demon worship here's what sometimes this will kind of shock people if you were to ask me hey Josh of the 18,000 different gods people in the world claim that there are which one do you believe in honestly my answer as a Christian is all of them all of them because check this out whatever God creates Satan counterfeits God is a Holy Spirit and Satan counterfeits God's Holy Spirit with thousands of unholy spirits the Bible calls demons now check this out 1st Corinthians 10 specifically says that the gods of other religions are absolutely real they're really demons this is 1st Corinthians 10 20 what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God it's like hey dude you may need to rearrange some emotional furniture in your heart in your mind that's just what the Bible says yeah and we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities powers and spiritual forces of evil in high places okay now anything here how am I doing doing great all right now let me give a counterpoint there is a distinction between I think there is a distinction there is one view that would disagree

with this between what God says to the nation of Judah in Israel and the kings in the Old Testament and what he might say to the city of McKinney or the United States today and it's that Judah in Israel were a covenant nation in a way that we are not a covenant nation okay so for instance in Judah in Israel in the Old Testament you had God given a God-given civil law land you had a priesthood that was intertwined with a God formed the nation created the nation and so this gets into we talked about this last episode singing that this gets into Old Covenant and New Covenant discontinuity mm-hmm how some people have said this now if you're a Christian keep your thinking cap on and track with me this this where like theology becomes actually important right here okay some people say it like this they'll say hey man Old Covenant New Covenant discontinuity in the Old Covenant God's people were one people in one nation state In the New Covenant, God's people are, 1 Peter uses the motif of exiles, and there's stuff you can say about that, that are scattered among every tribe, tongue, nation, and language. There's a difference. There's a difference, okay? Now this gets into the... So now you're kind of getting into the deep end of the pool. This gets into the question, how should New Covenant Christians think that old covenant laws and commands, for instance, that forbid things like idol worship happening in nations? How should we think about whether or not, or how those laws should apply in nations in the New Covenant era, okay? Now I'll just, for our Presbyterian friends, I'll just go ahead and get to this. The West... For instance, I'm going to quote the Westminster Confession. We're going to be nerdy. We're going to be nerdy here for a second. But almost everyone, besides, there's a theological position. Actually, go ahead and toss that chart up here, Trinity.

These are the five different kind of generalized positions. Starts with something called theonomy. Theonomy is... And basically what I have right here is the theological camp, the core claim, a summary of the claim of the theological camp, and then how it would apply to, should a nation allow the construction of a mosque. That's great. That's helpful. All right. Theonomy is kind of the view... By the way, Theo is God, nomos law. So it's basically just, hey, all of God's Old Testament laws are still in... Even the civil law are still in perfect effect under the New Covenant era. So obviously they would go, well, no, man, like, duh, God forbade the worship of false gods in ancient Israel, and all those laws still apply exactly the same today. It actually should be a civil crime. And then there's kind of like a spectrum you got here. You got classical Protestant, two kingdoms, that goes all the way back to Augustine, Baptist, and then Catholic integralism, all this stuff. So for listeners, or if you're listening, I encourage you to go over to YouTube. This is actually a really helpful study, because I'm just going to tell you right now, this question is... This theological question right here, in my opinion, is going to become one of the most pressing issues for the church in America in the next 20 years. So let me just say, this is something on which you are not going to have the luxury of not having an opinion on. I'm just going to go ahead and get that out there. Now, even if you do not fall in what's called the theonomic camp... Now let me just, again, I'm going to keep caveating this. I am personally still getting my head around this stuff.

I'm going to tell you how I'm thinking about this right now. I am personally still getting my head around this stuff. I've been, for the last two years, been doing as much reading as I can to get my head around it. I'm not there yet, so I'm figuring it out with you. But what I will say is, even if you don't fall in what's called the theonomic camp... Old covenant laws apply under New Covenant era to all nations. What the Westminster Confession says, and the Westminster Confession is not theonomic, from what I understand. I'm going to read it. It says, man, even if we wouldn't take the Old Testament civic laws and apply them in New Covenant nations, we should still learn from the wisdom of the way that God gave civic laws, because God's probably better at building a country than you. That's like the dumb Kentucky kid version of the Westminster Confession. I'm just going to read it to you. To them also, as a body politic... This is fun. He gave sundry... That means many in old English. He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people. That's talking about Old Covenant, New Covenant discontinuity. Not obliging any other now. So in other words, those civic laws are not binding on nations in the New Covenant era. This is Westminster Confession. But watch this. Then it says, further than the general equity thereof may require. And when it says general equity, again, I'm just dumb rural Kentucky kidding this for you. What it means is, hey, God's probably smarter at setting up countries than you. And we probably ought to learn from even his civic laws in how Christian...

We're being theologically nerdy for a second. Especially in the Reformed tradition, they'll talk about the civil magistrate. That just means... Every time I hear that, I'm like, I know what camp you're coming from. I know. I'm like, dude, can you just say, like, governor? Somebody that's in the government, bro, just talk normal. Talk normal. So that's what it's saying. So it's saying, hey, man, if you're a Christian in government, you ought to still be opening your Bible and reading how God established the nation and trying to glean wisdom, which, oh, by the way, let me just say this. The founders of our country quoted the book of Deuteronomy. their reasoning for a lot of the things they set up in our country more than any other source combined. What they were doing is gleaning from the, quote, general equity of the way that God established His nation in the Old Testament, okay? Are we having fun, or is this... Are we boring the heck out of everybody? What are we doing? We're going deep. We're going deep. Peanut Gallery. All right. Okay. We're going deep. They're just... They're at least... At the very least, they're lying to me in an encouraging way right now. I'm just telling you, this... Listen, bro, I'm nerding out on this stuff because I'm telling you, dude, I'm telling you, these are the questions people are going to be asking our country for the next 20 years. And real quick on this to help, like, two things, and then keep going. So, number one, when you see these different views we're going to talk about, and part of this is to help people understand that there isn't only one Christian perspective on this answer. Because, again, some people think, oh, this is obvious. Like, hey, there's multiple camps, and it's not that they're not reading the Bible. It's that they could be reading it differently. So, part of this is if we're going to have better conversations amongst Christians, we've got to understand that there's different perspectives on this. Like, there's very big different perspectives on this. But then the other thing is really what we're doing is going back to what we said at the beginning is we're trying to struggle with these tensions, of these competing tensions. And

basically what you're walking us through is these are the different tensions, but we're going to eventually get to a place of, hey, cut and dry, here's some things that we'd say. But I just want to connect those dots for people. Keep going. Thank you. Okay. Now, I'll say one other thing. I'm going to give you another chart. Oh, another one. Come on. I mean, I got charts. I got charts, brother. Chats are your policy right now. Oh, man. All right. For instance, people have pointed this out. Now, another thing, Carlos alluded to this in the beginning of the episode. I'll be very honest with you. I'm going to cut to the chase. I'm going to go to the end and then come back to the middle here in a second. One thing, Christians are really, really bad. And I'll be honest, this is one reason I think people like listening to Live Free. One thing Christians have become extremely terrible at is thinking in categories. And what I mean is, if you listen to the pod, you hear us say this a lot, we're doing repetition for emphasis, not repetition out of laziness. These are the questions Christians are going to be wrestling with in our country for the next 20 years. If you don't figure this next thing out, you're not going to know how to think about all the big questions in the next 20 years. It's called Kuyperian sphere sovereignty. We say this consistently, but let me apply it to this issue. God has created, so there's individual Christians. What are we supposed to do as disciples? But then what the Bible teaches is that God has established three institutions, each with their own unique roles. And that when those things stay in their lane and function in God-given ways, that results in the blessing and flourishing of the world and society. The three institutions are the family, the church, and the state. Now, let me apply this to the Muslim-Islam mosque thing. What some Christians do is they'll take the role of the individual and the church, which, oh, by the way, that's the great commission. Our primary job is to share Jesus Christ, the love of Jesus Christ, with everybody everywhere, send missionaries all over the place. There's a reason Lightpoint's giving away like 8 million bucks a year on mission. We are all in on the gospel to the nations. I don't care who you are, dude. You're worshiping a demon. I want you to worship Jesus Christ. We love you. I want to see you in heaven forever. So as a Christian and a church, that's our main role. Now, obviously, the church does have a role as, quote, the pillar and buttress of truth in society and all that, but I'm talking about primarily. We're being super theologically nerdy. Just stay with us. Now, the role of the state, Romans 13, is, again, it's to, hey, we need to reward the good and punish the evil. Then the obvious question is, well, who gets to define good and evil? God does.

Romans 13 talks about how the state, quote, bears the sword as the servant of God. So there's a lot we could go in here, but what I'm saying is here's what some Christians do. Now, let me just, don't do this, and then I'm going to keep going. What some Christians do is like, man, these horrible people who would ever think about trying to oppose a mosque being built through legal means, we're supposed to be about evangelism. So that's the only thing Christians should ever think about is just evangelism. Well, actually, no, that's actually not true. As Christians and as a church, we should go, what's the role of a Christian and a church? Evangelism, yes. But then we're also, we have to stop being children in our thinking and become mature in our thinking, Paul says. We also have to wisely ask the question, what is the role of the state? So what you have is, you have some Christians who only think about the role of the individual in the church, and they're like, evangelism, nothing else matters, look at these horrible Christians. Then you have other Christians who are more politically and culturally minded, and the only thing they think about is, hey man, Islamification, and hey, what does the First Amendment actually mean? Hey, the general equity of the Old Testament is, hey, maybe demon worship spreading in our country isn't great for our country, and what about migration policies? And that's the only thing. think of, and let me shoot you really straight, those Christians, they never develop the heart of Jesus Christ for the salvation of Muslim people. They become crusty, angry, hard, it's like they just don't got it. So what I would say if you're a Christian and you're listening, don't, like, stop being children in your thinking, let's grow up and be mature. You can't let one lane of the spheres eat all of your thinking. Does that make sense? It's basically like, you can ask two questions or go at two things at once.

I can both say as a Christian, how do I slow or prevent the Islamification of my society as I also try to make disciples of Muslims? Yes. It does not have to be an either or. In fact, it can't be. It has to be a both and, pretty much what you're saying. 100%. It's like, hey, we've gotta do both. We've gotta do both. Not only can you, you are required by Jesus Christ to do so. 100%. I think on both points. 100%. On both points. So you got stuff like this. Let me keep going. A couple of biblical observations people have made. For instance, in Acts 17, I've actually stood where Paul was when he said this. Acts 17, it's a Mars Hill, Areopagus. That's stinking cool, man. Bro, you gotta go. Y'all gotta see this. Lord willing. Lord willing. You're gonna make it two and a half weeks. It says Paul, he looks out at Athens

and it's really awesome, dude, because you're on the Areopagus and you can literally see the Parthenon. And I think, I took an iPhone. I think you can see 22 places where there would have been statues to demonic false gods from where he was standing. And it says, Paul's spirit was provoked within him as he saw the city was full of idols. Now note this. Paul's response to that moment was share Christ and plant churches. Yeah. That's important. And that provoke, it literally means he was angry. Angry. He was angry. Angry. But that's his flinch. His flinch is, okay, share Christ, plant churches. Now, here's the counterpoint. Counterpoint is, well, how are you gonna ask what a Christian ruler's duty is if there is no Christian ruler? So that's fair. That's fair. Okay. Now, let me get down. Let me start getting down to brass tacks and then we can start, you know,

landing on this episode and everybody can be mad at us. And it'll be great. Everybody. It'll be great. Y'all gonna love it. Yeah. All right. So here, if I start applying this whole thing, actually, let me say one last thing and then I'm gonna start applying it. So in a second, Trinity, I'm gonna call for that last chart and then I'm gonna show some stuff. This exact same thing that happened in McKinney, the opposite of it, actually, let me show the chart first. Let me show the chart. Okay. Here's the chart and here's where I'm like, right now, I'm figuring this out at the same time as you. I reserve the right to kind of go like, hey man, I'm gonna keep studying, try to figure it out. Here's where I land. Okay. Actions that Christians should take. Number one, we have to be honest that Islam is false. Our goal is to share Christ with Muslims, warm people. Hey man, be reconciled to God. Yep. That's your duty.

Every Christian everywhere should do that. We got a dude named Shariq Khan that I've been texting with. He's awesome. That's how you pronounce the name, right? Yeah, Shariq Khan. Yeah, thanks. Former Muslim dude in the DFW area. Seems awesome. Yeah. I'll meet him next week. Yeah, dude. Oh, really? Yeah. All right. We may need to have him on at some point, but that's his thing. Order to Christ out of Islam. Hey bro, let's get to gospel, these people. All right. Yep, all of us. Number two, say publicly that a mosque harms your city. And I gotta be honest, if you're a Christian who actually, like, hey bro, just for, there's a lot of Christians who they say they believe this stuff, but at the emotional level, you're like, no, you don't. Like, if you actually believe that Islam is the worship of demons

and that it's bad for people and societies, in one sense, with obviously there's some caveats, you gotta bring in some other thoughts too, in one sense, opposing the, like you said, the Islamification of a society, if nothing else, that is a love your neighbor issue. Yes. It is not good for people and societies. So say publicly that, hey bro, this is not good for our city. Yeah. Like, you should probably be honest about that. All right, number three. Also, Josh, I would say false religion is not morally neutral. Like, at some point, ideas have consequences. We'll say this often, right? There's a reason why, again, this is not just, Christianity, it's not just a religion of, like, intellectual exercise. Like, it flows out in your behavior. Same thing applies to a different religion that believes something completely different. At some point, that's gonna affect how men engage with women. That's gonna affect how families operate. That's gonna affect society, work, and hence, Islam being a religion also that, at some point, it's not a private, if at its core, if you go back to the Quran,

if you go back to Muhammad, at its core, it's not just a private devotion that you hide at home. No, dude. It's something that pervades every single aspect of society. So, go ahead. Yes, dude, hang on. I'm gonna try to find something here in a second. Dang it. I probably saved it too long ago. All right. No, I won't be able to find it Yeah In fact, let me point this out to what Carlos just said now what we're trying to do is what is the intersection of faith? And politics of theology and nation. Yep. I'll just point out to double-click on what Carlos just said Okay, so what's the first line say it says? That all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator We hold these truths to be self-evident by their Creator with certain in a lieu in a liable in alienable rights Okay, great. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome, but watch this you can't just stop there if everybody's endowed by their Creator with certain in a liable in a Alienable rights two questions arise. There's a creator. What's his name? Hmm and then number two Depending on your answer to that question that leads to your answer to the question which rights? Yes I'm gonna shoot you really straight good question like in in if his name is Jesus Christ As God there's a specific for instance, we're getting brass tacks. There's a specific definition of marriage that Jesus Christ has Elucidated. Yep. Okay, if his name is Allah Well, you can have up to four wives. Hmm. So I wrote you start getting hey, man If there's a creator what's his name? Hmm and his name is gonna have implications for what you believe are the quote certain inalienable rights that are endowed to people in a Society. Yeah. All right now so number three Should a Christian object at a hearing on watch this this is important Oh on land grounds traffic drainage parking I'm gonna get to this here in a second where I'm at is I believe that it is

Appropriate a Christian with good in good conscience could and I'm actually gonna tell you how here in a second That's what may actually get me in trouble That a Christian can in good conscience Oppose legally opposed the construction of a mosque Based on things like land ground traffic drainage parking zoning issues. I Believe a Christian can do that in good conscience. Yes, the law permits this but here's the question number four and this is the The strategic mistake a lot of people probably made in McKinney's Number four kid a Christian asked the council to refuse it because it is a mosque No, you can't that's illegal now and you're gonna lose. All you did was lose passionately. Yeah, that's right You lost in a blaze of glory I'm a big fan of winning. I like winning me too. Okay. Now, let me just point this out and here's why I say this In my again, I've got weighing over my head. I just got super interested in all this this week This exact same thing happened in reverse in January 2026 of this year in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma Literally the exact same thing happened and the City Council did the opposite So exact same thing Happened bunch of people show up and they're like, hey, we don't want a mosque in our city We don't want Sharia law in our city and the City Council there refused the mosque four to one On the basis of it came out in emails on the basis of is a mosque The Department of Justice opened an investigation, by the way, that's the Trump administration the White House faith office who is generally doing really good work Open investigation and then the Islamic Society of Tulsa sued and they're almost certainly gonna lose Okay, so here's the point is like hey, man, we need to be both wise as serpents and innocence innocent as doves Yes, they they oppose it on the legal ground of zoning If I understand correctly it was it what they were requesting a zoning change if I understand it correctly and the City Council If memory serves they sided with the people against the mosque But they did it it came out in emails on the basis of being a Muslim, you know What what we've seen Islam do in other nations that kind of thing and right now, let me just point this out again right now Because of the Supreme Court's interpretation of Everson in 1947 I'm gonna keep emphasizing this like bro Supreme Court matters for the societal inheritance. You will hand your children and grandchildren. It matters because of the interpretation

reinterpretation the First Amendment in 1947 right now it's there's no legal grounds for somebody to oppose something simply on the basis of It's a mosque. Yeah, I can't do it. Yeah now you got anything else say here. No, okay now number five Let me just point this out should Christians work on immigration policy and again again, I'll just point this out Yeah, you should and again you people you can this is one of the things that I obviously get Blasted for online sometimes but hey man, that stuff matters. Yes, it matters because again via mass migration Dallas now has one out of every 14 on average residents of Dallas is somebody from a predominantly Islamic nation. Now, do we want them to hear the gospel? Of course. But is it civically wise for a nation to just dilute the nation with an anti-Christian presence that will actually undermine, you know, sort of, actually, hey, Chris, text me one of those things you sent about Muslims vote with Muslims. Text me one of those things real quick. Is that wise to import millions of people who, in many ways, they are fundamentally opposed to historic American norms and Christian consensus? Is that wise? No, it's not, and it's not a non-Christian thing to say that, okay? Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. All right, yeah, Trinity, can you toss that up real quick? Now, let me show you why this kind of stuff matters. All right, so this is what I'm talking about.

Thanks, Trinity. So I just want to point this out. Like CARE, it's Center for American Islamic, something that ends with, what's this, ends with R? R, what's the R stand for? Relations. So I just want to point this, they put this out. So this is one thing, I'll be honest, dude, like Americans are not awesome at thinking this. People don't like, like Americans don't, like it's not in generally in like a, well, I'll just say it like this. Like Muslims vote with Muslims. Like your, I just spit everywhere. You're importing massive voting blocks that vote specifically for people who embody their religion. Yeah, makes sense. Makes a lot of sense. It's human. It's a human impulse. It's normal. But so, I mean, you see it like 97% of New York City Muslim voters, Zohra Mamdani, 86% for the Spanberger person and all these, so you're just seeing it like, man, it's extremely high concentrations, extremely high concentrations. So working on immigration policy. Yeah, Christians should do that.

And I go back to that chart, Trinity, and then here's the biggie, and this is like the long play. It's kind of like overturning Roe took 49 years. This is the kind of thing that would take, it's going to take a minute. And there are people working on this. I ran across it this week. Overturning Everson to return the question of these things to the states. Yeah, dude, that's something that if Christians get a chance, yeah, we should probably shoot for that. Okay, if I'm understanding this correctly. Now I'll just land on it here and I'll just say a couple of things. If you're like, ah, I don't know. There are two things I saw recently that made me like, yeah, dude, like we have to learn to think wisely from a spiritual perspective. So Philip Anthony Mitchell, he's a preacher I like to listen to every now and then. He honestly, dude, if people think that man, Howard and Guy, he's really on an island over there talking about the Islam thing a lot. Philip's been on this for a minute. So like Philip posted this, this was a few months ago. He said, it's one thing to invade a nation by force.

It's another one that nation invites her future persecutors into positions of power. Oh, America, our children will suffer the painful consequences of our blindness and spiritual apathy if we don't wake up. Lord, stir your bride. A religious takeover is coming and time is running out. That's Philip Anthony Mitchell. Now, if you won't believe a dumb rural Kentucky kid or Philip Anthony Mitchell or your Bible, I do just wanna play this and I'm gonna play it. It's like a minute and 15 seconds. I'm gonna play it in its entirety. This will send a chill down your spine. So that guy that I pointed out at the very beginning of the episode, white shirt, long hair, who had some emotion responding to the guy. He got up at the end of the night and he was an Iranian Christian that escaped the Islamic regime in Iran. And this is what he said at that city council meeting. Check this out. Hello, my name is Eddie Issa. I'm a Sharia law survivor from Iran. And I'm here to tell you, this is a dangerous ideology you're allowing in your country. Every country that is Islamic now, it used to be a Christian country. I mean, we were-

Pause. That's a generalization, but it's basically true. So a lot of people don't know this. Egypt, Turkey, North Africa, all of North Africa, et cetera. Bro, all those were Christian countries. Like when you go visit the seven churches in Revelation, they're almost all of them, they're in Turkey, which is an Islamic country now. And they didn't become Muslim because they thought the faith was really compelling. That is not exactly what happened. I'm gonna talk about that here in a second. Spain was under Islamic control for many years. Greece had to fight wars to... you know, to get it back. So, this is what he's talking about. That guy is, that dude ain't, he's not shooting from the hip, he's not an idiot, okay? Now keep going. Theology are long in their country. Every country that is Islamic now, it used to be a Christian country. I mean, we were soft Christians and we allowed these people to come in, bring their Sharia law. Now some, pause. Now some people would look at that and they'd be like, oh man, look at this guy, he's way over the top. Dude, there's just a few, what are you talking about, man?

I'm talking about like a tiny concentration, just a few, that kind of thing. I'm gonna read you something here in a second that's gonna help. Actually, I'm just going to read it right now. I'm just going to read it right now. Christians tend to think in terms of like decades. Muslims tend to think in terms of centuries, okay? So, check this out. Now, before we go any, keep it right there, Trinity. So, what he's talking about when he says the word slowly, he's talking about the fact that, yeah, man, world political conquest is endemic to the ideology of Islam. That has always been the thing. Shocking, ran across this this week. For instance, in 2004, the FBI grabbed this, they raided this thing and they found a document from the Muslim Brotherhood that's now been labeled a terrorist organization by the American government. And they found this, it was an explanatory memorandum. Now, again, do all Muslims think this way? No. We're talking about what happens at the macro level when huge numbers of people are imported into a society with general mindsets. What happens at the macro level over centuries? That's the question we're asking, okay? So, the FBI finds this,

it was called an explanatory memorandum. And this is how they described it. On the general strategic goal for the group in North America. So, basically for Muslims in America, this is what they said. I'm gonna read it. This is their document outlining the strategy. The process of settlement. So, it's talking about mass Islamic migration. The process of settlement is a quote, civilization jihadist process with all that the word means. The Ikhwan, which just means brother, must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within, and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated, and God's religion, talking about Allah, is made victorious over all other religions. So, some people might laugh at a guy like that and be like, you, what a dumb little fella. We're just talking about just a couple, just that kind of thing. That guy has a home country native experience of, no, no, no, there are certain people who they don't think like you. They're not thinking about the next 10 years. They're thinking about the next 300 years. And so, when he says, he's saying,

that's what they're talking about. Now, keep going, watch what he says. Into their countries and slowly kill us off left and right. Let me make it very clear to you. Christianity is a personal relationship with God where it says- He's a Christian. Render unto Caesars what is Caesar's. Render unto God what is God's. Islam is Sharia law, deen wa dawah, religion and state, which is not even compatible with the American thing. Pause. Now, what he's saying, and I just want to keep pointing this out. He's pointing out the fact that Islam is not, we just have to say it, Islam is not just a religion. It's also a political ideology. Yes. So, the thing I like to say sometimes is progressivism is a religion masquerading as a political ideology. Islam is a political ideology masquerading as a religion. So, there's more I could say here. That's what he's talking about. There is no such thing as Islam that does not have a vision for what it wants to infiltrate, take over, and do at the political governmental leadership level.

People will use Takiyah to lie to you, to manipulate you, because whenever Islam is little, they will lie to you and tell you they come in peace. This is a bad idea, and you're going to regret not listening to people like us who lived under Sharia law. Thank you, Eddie. You can stop right there. So, I'll just say, here's how you might say it. Unrestricted and falsely interpreted concepts of religious liberty, plus mass migration, plus Muslims are being discipled into clear political activity and strategy, while Christians are often being discipled away from clear political activity and strategy. That combination, my friends, is a national suicide pact. That's what he's pointing out, okay? Now, let me just land. You guys got any questions here? We good? Questions, comments, snide remarks, or otherwise? You want me to share thoughts now, or do you want to wait till after you're done cooking? Share some thoughts now, and then I'm going to say, then I'll finish just by like, here's what you can do. That's good. And here's what you can't do. I'll just say just a few comments. One's an encouragement, and then there's a few things I'm wrestling with, and just kind of even pack some different things that you've hit on. Man, just one encouragement, and we've said this before, but probably not frequently enough,

is man, I think Christians have gotten better at engaging in politics on a national level over the last four to eight years, where we have a lot of ground to make up is doing it on a state and local level. And that is actually where culture is formed in a real way in things like these. And so that's just one thing. It's just to encourage Christians that yes, by all means, vote in national elections, make your voice heard. But man, actually, it's like in local school boards and city councils and votes like this where you need to be just as active and involved, because this is where, if I'm playing a long game, I actually might work more at a local or state level than a national level, to your point. A couple of things, like, honestly, even as I've been wrestling this week, Carlos and I have talked some offline, it's like, man, I've been wrestling with this. It's like 50-50 either side, because a few things that I've been asking myself, so I'm not trying to impose this on anybody. This is just things I've been wrestling with is, man, there is just some, I don't call it simplistic, but there's the straightforward argument of like, man, we should oppose demon worship. We should. The thing I've been wrestling with is, hey, if I'm going to do that with Muslims, would I also do that with other groups? Because if I wouldn't, then I'm like, oh, there might be some hypocrisy in myself. It's like, I believe Jehovah's Witness is a false religion. Would I also oppose their zoning? And if not, I have to ask myself, but by the way, it doesn't mean I shouldn't oppose it. I'm saying that's more just a gut check in myself. If I'm going to use that argument, I should use it consistently. Yeah, this is not disagreeing with you, it's adding. What I would say is that different forms of false religion have asymmetrical outcomes in how destructive they are to society.

And so that's where I was actually going next. You hit it. Because then I'd say, okay, if there is something to me, then I'm like, it's a strategic thing and it's about the common good thing, kind of a thing. Then what I've wrested with is like at a local city, you know, kind of a thing like, oh, should I oppose? I'm like you, do it wisely, do it in a way that wins. But here's one thing that I had to tell myself this week is, hey, if I were to go and do that, I have to also know that then they can play that game with us. So then what if a place that has majority Muslim population at city council opposes a church being planted? Or very frankly, we have the strategic launch network that plants, we've planted a hundred churches in extremely secular, progressive cities. I'll shoot you real straight. They very frequently play the quote unquote zoning issues game to keep churches from being built in those cities. Like listen, very frequently. And by the way, and I'm not saying that we shouldn't do it. I'm more just saying that, hey, if we're going to play that game, we just got to know they may play it back with us and we can't be like LeBron or Luka where everybody fouls us, but we never fouled the people. Like we could be like, hey, if we're going to play it, we just got to know it may go back vice versa. And that's fine. Again, I'm just saying it's things that I'm wrestling with. We're all trying to figure this out. I'm trying to figure it out. And that's where, that's why it's been so hard is like, I can see that all the arguments, but that's from like, hey, if we do this, we just got to know it may happen back. And are we willing to?

And if we aren't, great. We just got to know that. But I think again, for me, then it's like saying, hey, we got to keep the tension. We've said this already, but I think just repeat, then I'll let you get back to it is saying, hey, man, I, it has to be a both end. I had to think, I love the strategy laid out, the things that we can do to take practical steps towards slowing or reversing the Islamification of society, because we do need to, and I want to reach them with the gospel and reach my neighbors. It's a both end. So that's just where I'm at. I just want to share where I'm at, the things I'm wrestling with and let you get back to it, man. Yeah. We were talking about, you know, Juan, again, a lot of people are going to probably wrestling with this point to the new Testament and they would argue, hey, but that's not what you see in the new Testament church, especially, right? And I think I have an answer to that because they couldn't, right? Like they just, like they literally couldn't and you don't ignore the other parts of scripture that you've laid out so clearly about the responsibility of a Christian, again, to we are Christians, not just in our private little sphere on Sundays, but every single aspect of society, that's our responsibility. And at the same time, when you look at history, I was going to ask you, Paul, would you just give us like a quick, like when you look at Christian history, have they been involved? Have they not been involved? Christians? All throughout history. Yeah, bro. We had this little thing called Christendom that we did for like a thousand years. Yeah. This is really, this is really simplistic, but I'll do this fast for you.

It's like, cause yeah, cause to your point, when the news has written, they didn't have an option. But the thing that was always the thing is we're going to make disciples and guess what? We're going to disciple people to obey Jesus and live out their faith in every sphere of their lives, including in their homes, but also including their workplaces. Well, guess what? Guess what happens all of a sudden when a Christian emperor becomes a Christian? He begins asking, how do I live out my faith as an emperor? He's talking about Constantine, 300s. Constantine. And I'm, again, I'm way simplifying, but then all of a sudden, when you do have people in power who love Jesus and they're, if they're going to live out their life as a disciple and as a follower of Jesus, that includes them, there's a role, and so they're beginning to think, well, hey, if I'm running this nation and this, I want to do it in a way that aligns with my faith and values and that builds over time But then here's the thing what's different today is that we don't have an emperor, but man, I exert influence and political Political influence because I vote I'm a citizen of a constitutional republic And so I should be asking as a Christian if like hey as a disciple of Jesus How should I wield my influence and how I vote as a disciple? It's not a separate thing. It's part of being a disciple So basically it's like Constantine got to do it. You don't know how to read others now as Christians We carry that responsibility individually. It's kind of how oh, yeah Let me say I'm gonna riff on what you just said Carlos and then I'm gonna finish this episode telling you like hey If you're a Christian in a city where this is a thing Here's what you are allowed to do because I actually like worked on this with a lawyer So I just you want to see your question because a lot of Christians are like hey That's not what they did in the Bible and you're like you your response is the right one, bro They couldn't there's a hundred and twenty of them in the Roman Empire So what I would say is a couple things Jesus specifically Predicted that the kingdom of God would grow in the world like leaven through a lump of bread

So this is our really really small and then over the centuries. It's gonna work and work and work and work and work Okay The other thing I would point out is Jesus specifically commanded people in the Sermon of the Mount to be quote the salt of the Earth he did not say I just want you to be the salt of the church Just keep the salt in the salt shaker and just you know, don't don't apply your Christianity in the public square Don't ever do that. You know, we lose down here kind of vibe We know no, he's a man go out Jesus Jesus actual title in the New Testament is King of Kings. Yeah That's like his name it's tattooed on his thigh that has more authority than a president Yeah, no government. The implication is all the presidents should be bowing to me and doing what I want And then I mean I could keep going you get the I won't keep going temptation Jesus all the kingdoms all the things I could keep going. All right, so let me just land on this if you're here's what I think I I do I think It would not be inappropriate for Christians in a city to buy by legal means if there is a legal and ethical means To oppose it and keep it from happening. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. There's two ways you can do that I'll just tell you number one. It's called in in the state of Texas. It's called a formal property owners protest You just got to get a land-use lawyer You got to find somebody who has who owns 20% of the contiguous land with the proposal This is when this is when something needs a zoning change is what it needs And you just fire up file a formal property owners protest, but it cannot be on the basis of Well, it's Islamic or eyes right? No, you have to be able to with integrity say hey, dude You know traffic flow and that you have to with integrity be able to say those things and file it on that basis Okay, so that's number one if a zoning change the required formal property owners protest number two If I understand this correctly, I think this is national I think federal but I'm sure that it applies in the state of Texas. I Was texting with somebody in government leadership that would know the answer to this question who shall remain nameless They he just honestly pointed out hey, man a significant number of Potential mosque developments are connected in some way to one of the two organizations the Muslim Brotherhood or care and that's where CAI are them and

any affiliate those two organizations and any Affiliate is banned in Texas from owning land Hmm, so if someone can establish in any way, hey, that's there's an affiliate relationship right there in any way That it's not not allowed on and done. It's done. So from what I understand what you do is you file a public records request? on the potential developments paperwork nonprofit status nonprofit status and any connection to care of the Muslim Brotherhood and If you establish it boom done, then you file that complaint with the Texas AG's office and it's done Yeah, so that's a little nerdy and wheezy now Let me finish I'm gonna finish by reading our brother shari Khan the guy that Converted out of Islam as a Jesus follower now because he said something about this that I think needs to be our final Note of emphasis. I'm a read what he said. I like what he said Everyone is suddenly paying attention to McKinney because of a mosque a 7-0 vote and a political controversy I work in McKinney twice a week and here's what I'm actually seeing on the ground The biggest problem isn't so notice he's saying the biggest problem. He's not saying there's no other problem He's saying the biggest problem. The biggest problem isn't that Muslims and Hindus are moving here 300% more Hindus, by the way It's that the church is largely absent. Now. He's not saying there's no good churches over there and listen, we know I know There's some great dudes over there. Yes, so I just want to get that out there people have moved here built businesses bought beautiful homes, raise families, and become part of the community. And too many Christians only show up when there's a political controversy. We have literally outsourced our evangelism, which is our strongest assimilation system, to a single morning where we storm a meeting and get really loud for five hours. The question I have is where were the other 364 days? Talk is cheap. And so I would just finish by saying, do not merely be hearers of the word and so deceive yourselves, do what it says.

Now, I'm gonna go take Jan on a date. So Jesus, please give us wisdom. I have now prayed. The episode is over. Get out of here.