2 Pastors DEBATE If Christians Should Watch Movies About WITCHCRAFT & MAGIC?! | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Here's a key question. Am I truly free to stop? So if I love this TV series or this movie series or this book and I began to feel convicted, do you really think you could stop? If not, it is beginning to have a hold on you, and because of that, I think you should stop. What you consume most is what you conform to. Where I'm instructive to do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Check out your inputs and then evaluate your outputs. Well, hey, Liffry Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas. But the Liffry Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step and that is join us for church online. Every weekend we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook, and our church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat. Prayer team is ready to stand with you and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church or just looking for a place to start, church online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend. And now, enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, welcome back to a bonus episode of the Liffry Podcast, man. This episode is going to be a little different. I'm here. My name is Carlos Arrazo, and today I'm here with Chad G. Paul C. Paul Cunningham. What's up, bro? What's going on, bro? You good? What you doing? Man, I love you got the camo shirt. I got the camo hat. Let's go, man. We're going to be hunting pretty soon. This is going to be we're going to be hunting. We're going to be hunting pretty soon. Oh, sure. People don't know you and I went hunting together last year. One time. Didn't get anything. Nothing. It's going to change this year, bro. Okay. We're going to get you an animal. Well, I'm ready. Clearly. Come on. Hey, today's going to be a little bit of a different episode. So, for people joining right now, this is not your usual Monday Liffry episode. We're test driving these quote, unquote bonus episodes where basically they're going to be a little shorter. Sometimes it's going to be maybe, I don't know, 20 minutes. Other times it's going to be like four minutes. We're trying to pick one, maybe two, but mostly one question and we want to zoom in. We want to go a little deeper. And basically, this is going to be the bonus episode of like,

"What didn't make it to the Monday Liffry episode?" So, people know this. Obviously, every single Monday Liffry episode we ask, "Hey, what did it make it to the sermon?" Occasionally, Paul, there's a lot more to say and, you know, we run out of time. Yeah. And so, some of these might be questions that we run out of time for because we do. There's so much we don't cover. So, even sometimes I've seen the comes, "Well, why didn't you guys talk about this?" And a lot of times we were going to, but we just ran out of time. We literally run out of time. So, if there's anything like that that you hear about as we're discussing it on the podcast, man, send it our way. Hey, could you guys bring this up on that midweek? But other times, we might take a topic that's huge in the culture that moment, or maybe that time of the year, or maybe it's just like what we call an evergreen question, something that people are always asking. And we may dive into those. Like you said, sometimes it may only take us 20 minutes to respond to it. Sometimes, like today, it may take us closer to like 35 to 40 minutes, depending on how tricky your nuance is. Or more. Or you may just make this try to trap me. That's what he said. Today, Carlos is going to beat me down with the Bible, and it's going to finally last 15 minutes because I'm going to submit after a while. This is going to be really interesting. So, all it means like, what are we covering today? Yeah, so before we go there, hold on. So again, we're test driving this. So for people joining right now, the way we know this is helpful, if you go on YouTuber Spotify, let us know in the comment section if this is helpful. Also, the way we know it just by engagement, like if you want to share, like, and comment, that tells us that this is actually helping people. And again, we're test driving it right now. So we'll try to figure out if we're going to do it long term, or if this is like, ah, that's not the great idea, or not the best idea. Maybe one more caveat, especially if people have never seen an episode which is you and me. So, for a little bit of behind the scenes perspective, when you and I are hanging out, like, even off the podcast together, we have fun by just literally going back and forth and bantering and debating. Often on things we actually agree on, but we're just fighting for fun. We argue a lot. Yeah, but for fun, for fun. Even like, we went to a Cowboys game a few weeks ago, and I think in the car, we started talking about two or three different theological topics that we pretty much agreed on, but we were just going back and forth for fun. And so, just know, especially on this episode, because we've landed in different spots,

but on the other ones, you're like, man, are like Carlos and Paul's still friends? Yes. When it's just the two of us, we have a little bit more friendly back and forth, and we kind of make some jokes at each other's expense. Just know that's the real one. It's just the two of us. And if you have a question that you're like, yeah, like you, Paul, you said this, but if you have a question that you would like us to cover for future test drives, let us know in the comments section as well. Okay, so here's what we're going today. Okay. Here's the question. And by the way, I didn't check with you before, so maybe you disagree with the framing of the question, but I think it's fine. Okay. The question for today as we are in the month of Halloween is, should Christians watch magic, witchcraft, and demonic themed movies? Ooh. Ooh. Okay. Here we go. I like that. Is that a very question? Movies that magic in witchcraft. Sure. So movies like Harry Potter. Harry Potter, that's big. When we may have been framed around, Christian's watch Harry Potter maybe any next month called, I think, Hex? - Hex. - You know, things like that, but just go like, - Wicked. - Wicked, you've got like kids movies like Hocus Pocus, which is really big at the time of Halloween, but also you've got magic, or maybe it's not the central thing in the movie, but it is in the movie like Lord of the Rings. - That's right. - Chronk Sonarnia, so even like there, it's not just movies as this book, so should we watch those, or in the case of a book, should we read those? - So here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna first start by sharing some helpful biblical frameworks as to like,

how to think as a Christian, not just about this particular topic, but really about any kind of entertainment, especially obviously, we're gonna focus on Halloween themed ones. Paul, you will share here what the Apostle Paul said in Romans 13 and 14 on how do Christians disagree well? We're gonna take a second, and basically, we're gonna pick on Harry Potter, and we're gonna use it as a case study, and I'm gonna tell you what I think about it, you're gonna tell me what you think, and we obviously disagree on how we see this, and we'll figure out who's right and wrong. (laughing) - Like right now, even if you're watching this right now, go ahead and vote for where you think you two of us are gonna land. - Oh, no, no, no. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. - I got, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I dropped some interaction, bro. - Okay, bro, okay, bro. - But then what we're gonna do at the end, and I think if we stick around for this, because, you know, there's gonna be some people that probably more line-up with you and more line-up with me, and by the way, that's part of what we kinda wanna show, that that's okay, but what we're both gonna do at the end is say, "Hey, regardless of where you land on this "when, whether you're coming just for yourself or as a parent, we're gonna give some good questions and thoughts about, hey, here's some things you need to be thinking about when you're thinking about what you should watch, read, take in." So we're gonna land on that at the end to say, "Hey, no matter whether you agree or disagree with us on some particular things, we can all agree that we should be thinking about some specific things as we're watching what we watch." - If we have time, we're gonna rapid-fire real quick some popular movies, just go, "Yes or no,"

and it's gonna be fun, if we have time, and then we're gonna close with pastoral thoughts as well. So let me start here, Paul, let me share one of the most helpful frameworks that I think I've heard on really Christians in culture and how to see entertainment and culture in general. So I'm pretty sure I heard this from Pastor Mark Driscoll, I think over 10, 15-ish years? - Yeah, maybe I think I heard around like 15 to 20 years ago, yeah. - I've heard other people share it, this is who I heard it from first, so here's, if you're a Christian, here's what you need to know, when it comes to culture, you can do three things, you can reject, receive, or redeem. So let me explain real quick what these mean, so one, if you're a Christian, we reject what is sinful. Ephesians 5 verse 11 says, "Hey, take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them," which by the way, this is what I'm hoping to do today, Paul might disagree, but that's okay. Let me give you an example, so obviously the Bible says, "Some things are sin, sin separates you from God," and so again, sexual immorality, gossip, false religion. If something is inconsistent with who you are as a Christian, it's okay to reject those things. - So can I give an example, the idea here is that even if in a particular culture, it is acceptable, we as Christians have to reject it. And by the way, this is a dilemma that Christians have to face since the beginning. I read a book in the last couple years on this of how different heirs of Christians had to wrestle with different things. And one, in the early Roman Empire, it was very common for men and women to bathe together in the same spot, naked, nude. And a bishop actually, in the early Roman Empire, this is a very common thing of men and women bathed in the same place as completely naked, a bishop wrote a letter basically to Christians saying, "We do not do that, that is impossible, you reject that, you reject that." So it's not that they rejected everything from Roman culture, but they said, "Hey, that particular thing we reject." So at every point in history and in every culture in the world, Christians have to say, "Hey, there might be elements of the culture that even if they think it's acceptable, we can accept it, we have to reject it." - Okay, so there's reject? - We reject what is sinful, number two, we receive what is good. Philippians 4.8 says, "Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, think about these things." So as Christians, man, we believe God is good, we believe his creation is good, and we like beauty, creativity, truth, excellence, and goodness, wherever we can find it. Even if it's not necessarily explicitly a "Christian" thing, if it is true, if it is beautiful, if it is excellent, it's from God. And so we receive what is good. Any other thoughts on that? - No, that's a good one. - Great. - That's usually the easy one. We reject what is sinful, we receive what is good, and number three, we redeem what can be used for God's glory. So this is my favorite passage of all time in Scripture, 1 Corinthians 10.31 says, "Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, you do it for the glory of God." So something that was not necessarily originally meant for good has the potential of being used for a different purpose, and that's called redeeming something. So for example, people could look at social media right now and be like, "Man, that's a terrible place to be at. It's hurting society, and it's true. There's a bunch of things from social media that can be detrimental to a society." And yet, I believe Christians have a responsibility to get in there and redeem the purpose of social media.

So what people use the internet or social media for things that are evil, Christians can get in there and use them for things that are good. That's called redeeming something. - And what's tricky about their deeming category, and this actually leads well into our next kind of helpful framework to keep in the back of our minds as we're discussing today's question, is that reject is usually pretty obvious in terms of when we have to reject, receive is again-- - Not so much for some, but I'm sure. - It gets into this, receive is usually pretty obvious. I don't have to pray whether I should receive a beautiful national park. It's beautiful, God made it for me. That's right. - That's what I can go and enjoy it. Redeem, though, usually has a mix of both good and bad, and so we might have to reject part of what is bad, but then we can receive part of what is good or change it and redeem it. So you gave some good examples, but another one, and we might refer to this again later in this episode, is the Apostle Paul in the book of Acts, quotes a pagan poet who writes a poem and this poem it says, "We are His offspring." Here's the tricky thing, the poet in the original context was referring to Zeus, a pagan God, which by the way, Paul says in other parts of the Bible that these pagan deities are actually demons.

And so he takes that and you think, okay, that's bad. Like it's called advocating that we believe in Zeus and worship it. No, instead what he's saying is, hey, your own poets have said that we are God's offspring. He's like, in a sense, you're right, but in other sense, he said, hey, you're wrong. It's not Zeus, it's actually the true and living God that I'm here to proclaim to you. So that's an example of how Paul could actually take something that had a lot of bad in it, but redeem it and end up using it for good. But here's the tricky thing. - And he uses it to share the gospel, by the way. - Yes. - He's telling people about Jesus. - Yes, he literally uses it. What's tricky about this one is that there might be certain things that some Christians are more comfortable redeeming that others aren't. That leads us into another helpful framework in terms of how we have these discussions and why sometimes it can be really tough for people to have them. And that is, man, Christians have to figure out like some certain ethical dilemmas and that there are some places in scripture where it says things that are very clear, hey, we should do this or we should not do that.

And other places in scripture, it actually leaves it open that some Christians may be feel convicted not to do something, but another Christian can do the same thing. In fact, what makes this most tricky is that this is actually chapter after chapter in the book of Romans, one chapter after another. I've got some verses for us that will put up on the screen for those who are watching via video, for those who aren't, you can just listen along. In Romans 13, Paul gives a list of instructions of things that, hey, there's no one for debate, we can't agree to disagree, this is just it. It says, let us walk properly is in the daytime, not in orgies, in other words, don't go have an orgie, don't get to debate that, or drunkenness, not in sexual morality and sensuality. But then what I love is, at first it's talking about like very obvious sins that most people would agree on. But then he says, also not in quarreling or jealousy, what some people would think of as low level sins. He's like, hey, there's no space for that. And so even, guess what, if you say, hey, well, my conscious doesn't convict me of those things, they pass up Paul, and God, through the apostle Paul say, I don't care, you don't get to do those things. Those are off limits for us as Christians. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh to glorify its desire. So in Romans 13, we get very specific things we can't do. Go one chapter over, and he's even Pastor Josh said,

I believe in a recent podcast in sermon. We have to remember in the original text, there were no chapters and verses. So this is literally just a few verses later. Paul says this, as for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person, in this case, one Christian believes he may eat anything, including meat. While the weak person eats only vegetables, let not the one who eats, despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains, pass judgment on the one who eats. So you had some Christians who they thought they could eat whatever they want. Another group thought that if you ate meat or a specific economy, you were sinning. And so you had one group who was passing judgment, and they were saying, hey, you guys are sinning for eating this. The other group is saying, well, whatever, we're free in Christ, and you're a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites. And so it can be hard if there's some areas that are very clear that no Christian should do. There's other areas that we call areas of conscience where it might be wrong for you to do it if your conscience is convicting you of it, but that doesn't make it wrong for everyone to do it. Follow us so far.

So guys, you can actually give some examples of this. - Please do, please do. - It's like, for example, let's even go over to what it says here in Romans 13, Carlos, is it a sin to get drunk? - Yes. - Okay. Is it a sin to have a drink? - Not necessarily. - Why do you say not necessarily? - Because the Bible doesn't say that having a drink is a sin. - Yeah, but for some people, if their conscience convicts them that they shouldn't drink, either because they have a history with alcohol or just for them, they just feel like if they do it, it's wrong, is it sin of those people drink? - Yes. - Yes. And then later in that passage, Romans 14, Paul is talking to both groups of saying, hey, if that is you, don't drink, but also don't judge those who do drink as long as they're drinking responsibly. But then you would also say to those who do drink, hey, don't drink in a way that makes those people stumble in their faith, or that's wrong too. Let me give some other examples. Okay, these will be silly, but just track with me for a second,

'cause I think this will also, I'm gonna give my hand away a little bit. when we begin talking about works of fiction, either in reading or in watching. Carlos, would it be sinful for a man to kill 77 people out of revenge for killing his puppy, for one of those people killing his puppy? Would that be sinful? - Yeah, it would be. - Yes it would be. - Yeah, no one should go out and kill 77 people for killing your puppy or your dog. - That's right. - Would it be sinful to watch John Wick, which depicts that very story? - Not necessarily. - Hey, Ballet, you're a fan of John Wick? It's okay to... - General, hold on, bro, I'm about to answer the question. I am a fan I've seen all the John Wick's, and I do like him. - Okay, and, Ballet, I didn't make up that 77 number, I looked it up and for sure enough, it's how many people he kills in the first movie, obviously, because it's a little more and more. - I think his kill count isn't the high 400, so it's pretty, it's pretty. - Yeah, I would, no one's that, go ahead. - Oh, no, I was actually gonna say, when you say not necessarily help nuance that,

'cause I think this is gonna help set up for some of the things we're gonna have to do later with this other question. Why are you saying that, hey, it's a sin to go do it, but it wouldn't be necessarily a sin to watch the movie where it shows that guy doing it, why? - Yeah, I'd have to go back and check, but I think when it comes to movies like John Wick or like the Equalizer, they're all basically the same movie. There's a sense of justice, like the people that are being killed in this case or they're bad guys. - Yes. - Like there's mafia or people that are deep in corruption and justice, and so here comes one guy and be like, well, I'm gonna put an end to your injustice, and so again, that would be an example of a redeeming aspect of the movie. - I love that you said that. This exactly where I was gonna go is what you just did is you said, I do not approve of murder, and I'm not like sitting there gloring in murder. By the way, if you were, like, if you're there as a Christian thing and, oh, I like that he's just murdered his people. - That'd be a problem. - That would be a problem. - That should be a problem. - That should be an example that if you're conscious isn't convicting you, that's an issue. But what you can say is, hey, there is maybe a broad theme of saying, hey, like evil people being brought

to justice of some kind. I'm not gonna say revenge is good, but that broad theme is good, even if I don't approve of everything that gets it there. - Yeah, it's a justice, agree, you're right. And we can distinguish that when we see that, hey, the Bible actually forbids you to take personal vengeance, but there's a sense inside of you that when you do feel like, man, something feels wrong, and then you see that justice satisfied. It's like, that's a good thing. - Exactly, and so I got there as an example of redeeming, we have to take some of the good from it, but also leave out the bad. I'll use a personal example for another one. This would be silly, but would it be sinful for a high school chemistry teacher who gets cancer and needs to support his family as he thinks he's gonna die to start selling crystal meth on the side? Would that be sinful? - It would be illegal. - It would be illegal, which then definitely would mean it would be sinful and addition to all the harm that would cause others. But man, is it sinful if I like to watch the show Breaking Bad, which literally depicts that exact same story. You're honestly-- - I have not seen the full show, so it's hard for me to speak on it. - I would go and say, it would be,

I would literally say exactly what you said. - You'd say no. - Not necessarily, it depends. Hey, if I'm watching that and I'm beginning to root for the bad things he's doing or think he's a good guy, hey, that might actually not be good for me to watch, but part of the show, and I won't try to give too many spoilers away for those who haven't seen it. And by the way, I'd be careful to watch it. This is part of what we're saying. This is not everyone should watch these things, is part of what you get to see is sin's effects. You see him by the end of the saying, "This is where sin will lead you." I can redeem that part of it, make it good while leaving out the bad, but guess what? If watching Breaking Bad led people to some bad areas or desensitize their conscience, they shouldn't watch it. So, my point is this, that's where I think we can debate. I'm not saying, I haven't seen Breaking Bad completely. I just saw the first episode and I stopped. - My point in doing this is that it shows how, man, on the one hand, doing certain things can be definitely sinful, but when we start getting into fiction or work sufficient, it can get tricky 'cause now we're going maybe into an area of conscience. And I wanna actually wrap up this section, then we can get into the specific thing of magic and movies and sorcery and witchcraft and movies. I wanna put up a spectrum, I think, on the screen

'cause when we're talking about areas of conscience, in my experience, people fall in one of two sides. If you, again, if you're just listening to this, just imagine a line across the screen and there's a line down the middle and into two sides. One side is more restrictive. And even on that side, by the way, there's a spectrum. So there's some people that are extremely restrictive in an area of conscience. So, going back to alcohol, it's like, "Nope, I will never drink a sip. "I won't go into a bar. "I'm not going anywhere near whatsoever." And actually, I'll get back in a minute so some watch-outs these people need to think about, not just with alcohol, but with anything. Other people are more permissive. They don't feel that restriction. It's not wrong for them if they have a drink or if they're, "Let's go to a Breaking Bad or John Wick." Some people say, "No, I cannot watch those movies." And they would even say, "You know what? "I don't think anyone should." Because for them, if they were to watch that, they feel awful 'cause it depicts murder and violence and so on and so forth. Other people saying, "You know what? "I can watch it and I can take the good and leave out the bad." So, you have more restrictive people and more permissive people.

Here's what I want to say and then let's dive into the specific topic of the day and then you get to lay out your devastating case of why I'm wrong and you're right. Anyways, here's what I would say, some watch out for both, for people on either side. And again, this is not just for things like "Should Christians Watch Harry Potter." This is for things like any type of show, video games, music, anything like that. - From the photo. - Is if you're a person who you have an area of conscience that's more restrictive, you need to watch out for a few things. Number one, that you don't become judgmental of those who are more permissive. That you don't think, oh, well, those people are sinful. If not sinful, they're definitely not as holy as me, 'cause if they do. - No, I'm better. - Yeah, and also, usually the hard thing is, the more restrictive people seem to have more clear Bible verses or principles on their side. So this can be hard for them. 'Cause like, well, wait a second, they're disobeying the Bible. You gotta be really careful not to judge those who have a more permissive stance on this. Consequently, on the other side. - By the way, we're not talking about sinning. - No, no. - We're permissive. Oh, yeah, I do this, you know. - Don't nitrate the girlfriend.

That's how we're talking. - Yeah, no, no. - On the more permissive part, here's the watch out for them. You can also be judgmental. You can think, oh, those stuck-up self-righteous things. - This is better than me. - I think they're better. You think you're better than me? I don't even wanna ask you if you know what movie that comes from. - Ah, no, but it's not never telling. (laughs) - Oh, that was like a little bit of a compliment. - Wait, is that-- - That's not Italian. It's more of a, I'll explain it later. Yeah, a little bit of a, yeah, there's a few movies and references I was referring to. Anyways-- - Is that Robert DeNera? - No, no, no, no. Actually, he may have said that in one movie. All right, we're getting distracted. This is what you and I do when it's just-- - I know, I'm not together. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. - You think you're better than me? You better doggy? - Okay, go ahead. - People, I hope they think this is funny 'cause you and I think this is. Anyways, here's another issue. If you have a more permissible like stance towards an area of conscience, you need to be really careful that you at least do have a line somewhere.

Because if you get to the point where nothing ever pricks your conscience, you have one of two options. You're either as holy and mature as Jesus or your conscience as numb. And so if you do have a more permissible stance towards whether it's magic in movies or violence in movies or drinking or whatever it is, at some point, if you don't have any lines you want crossed, that should be a flag that may be gone too far in that direction. But what's fun though then is that when Christians are doing life together on these issues, we may be in different spots. And because of that, sometimes we can have disagreements. And in fact, today, you and I lean on different spots where you're different lines of the spectrum on this issue. - So very much so. - Here's what we'll do. Carlos, why don't you lay out in terms of, if someone asks you, hey, like if someone, if I came up to you and I said, hey, Carlos, can I as a Christian or should I as a Christian, watch Harry Potter or movies that have magic and sorcery? Where would you land? - Let me just say one more thing on the little chart here that you brought on the side of permissible and restrictive is the terms that you used. So, you know, Christians usually tend to ask questions such as, is it a sin to blank? Is it a sin to watch John Wick?

Is it a sin to watch Harry Potter? Is it a sin to, and then they'll just fill in the blank? - Sometimes, Paul, honestly, that's the wrong question. First Corinthians 10, 23, Paul says, all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful, but not all things build up. And in this passage, he seems to be quoting a slogan that was going around in the Corinthian church of basically saying, no, all things are lawful. We have freedom in Christ to basically do whatever we want. Paul is saying, yeah, that's what people say, but actually not all things are helpful, which means something can be permissible when you look at that chart and you see permissible on this side, and you're like, well, I land more on the permissible side because I'm a little more mature on this or that, or perhaps, or whatever. And you think if something is permissible, something could be permissible, that same thing might not be helpful. - We've said this on a recent podcast, but it applies here too. There's a difference between can I and should I? - That's exactly. - So even as we're getting this conversation, there's a difference we gotta realize between can a Christian, but also should you as a Christian do that? - Which is very important. Now, with that said, let me give you,

before we go into the Harry Potter thing, let me give you four questions that I usually ask, and this is not just apply to Harry Potter, this literally applies to like every piece of entertainment or art form that I consume. And I wanna be intentional, we wanna be mindful. We're not passive consumers as Christians, we are intentionally discerning, hey, is this good for me? Is this shaping me in a way that is helping me become more like Jesus? Those are questions that we ask. And so first question real quick that I ask whenever I'm consuming music, movies, whatever it is, hey, number one, what type of content am I consuming? So if you are on social media, and all of a sudden you go on X, for example, and you see that when you go on X, people are not friendly, generally speaking, everybody's like hitting on each other, like everybody's trying to own the other person. - No. - And then people are angry and bitter and complaining, and all of a sudden you're there and you feel like, man, you start feeling like a little bit of anxiety in you or like, oh man, I'm now becoming the bitter person. And if that's you, I would say to you, hey, maybe it's time for you to take a little bit of a break from social media. And you're like, but it's not a sin. It's not a sin for me on social media.

You're right, it's not a sin. It's also not helpful. Again, so you need to be asking whatever it is you're consuming. you are not necessarily wanting to become? That's one. Number two, what is it glorifying? Somebody might be listening to, I'm just thinking a lot here, for a Taylor Swift song. And you know, it's catchy and super melodic, whatever. It's a beautiful piece of art. But it's glorifying betrayal, hard break, revenge, glamorizing, brokenness in a relationship. Again, is it a beautiful piece of art? Yes. Is it a catchy song? Yes. Is it fun? Perhaps. Is it glorifying something that basically the Bible says, Hey, that's not who you are called to be. And so if so, what is it glorifying? Same thing you could say applies to a story or a movie or whatever. Number three, who is the author and what's his intent or purpose? So bro, people don't realize this. Movies are sermons. TV shows, songs you're listening to and you have on repeat, they're discipling you. Yes. Everything that you consume is shaping who you are. It's either forming you to become more like Jesus or deforming you from the character of Jesus. So show me what podcast you're listening to today. I bet you I can have a good idea of who you are. Because again, it's shaping you. Now, what you need to understand is when you consume art or entertainment, there's somebody behind it, the creator of it, with an agenda, whether you realize it or not. So I want to know, when I listen to any music, I want to know who's who's the artist. Generally speaking, I'm curious, especially when it comes to some of these conversations, I want to know who's the director who's been. So let me give you an example. This is pretty recent. So you know that there's a new Narnia movie coming out, right? Yes. Okay. So with the dive into that one another time, a lot of questions. Yeah. So for people that don't know, there's a new Netflix Narnia movie coming out. So what you'll see on social media is that Aslan, and this is confirmed, Aslan will be voiced by a woman. And it will be inspired. Aslan will be inspired by David Bowie. So you're looking at that and you're like, huh, this is the Narnia. You mean that the one from C.S. Lewis? So you're telling me that the Christ figure in Narnia will be inspired by a British artist who identified as bisexual and experimented with Andrajana's gender expression. Why would that be? Oh, here's why. Well, the director is the same director of the movie Barbie. Like all of a sudden, that makes a lot of sense. Why? Because whoever's behind it as a creator, they have an agenda. They have intentions. They

have a vision, a worldview of what is good and what is not good. And so to a degree, sometimes more explicit than others, that's going to leak into the piece of art. And then what we should not do as Christians is just passively consume it. And real quick, it doesn't mean we can't take anything good from those who are non-Christians. Because that's right. The Apostle Paul took something. That's right. Who didn't have good motives. That's right. Yeah, what we do have to know is you have to be way, way, way more careful and mindful when that is the case. I think that's what we both say is like saying, hey, you got to really turn your thinking cap on whenever you're watching that, if it's the wrong person making it. Which leads me to the last question. Is it redeeming that which the Bible might call a sin? So for example, to your point, Paul, what you don't want to do either is basically just see everything through the lens of sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, non-good. We live in a broken world. And the Bible talks about something called common grace. Which means that God can use a non-Christian to bring about a beautiful piece of art or a movie that is good or a story. Again, maybe they're not Christian. Maybe they're not trying to point you to the Bible. But within it, you can find elements that are true and worthy. And potentially, it's a redeemable thing that you can actually consume and be blessed by it. And it's not necessarily quote unquote a Christian song or a Christian movie or whatever. So probably the easiest example would be superhero movies. Again, most superhero movies, Marvel, for example, they're not necessary. It's not a Christian coming together, unfortunately, coming together that I know of at least and say, okay, how do we do this thing and point to Jesus? That's not happening. But we can watch these movies and be like, that's justice. That's a hero. That's somebody who is accepting responsibility and sacrificing themselves out of love for other people. That is a very biblical, righteous, good, virtuous thing. And so again, is it redeeming that which the Bible calls us in? Maybe a movie has elements that are like, well, we would disagree. We would say that's a sin. Back to John Wake, I would argue. Yes, killing a bunch of people because of your puppy. That's not good. That's a sin. But there's a redeeming aspect of justice to it. And so that's a question that I want to ask. And with that, and you know, we can finally get your view of Harry Potter and you begin to put me in my place. He's about to trap in here just a couple seconds. I know it's so much. I'm so nervous about it today because you definitely have the high ground because you'll show some verses here in a little bit and it's like, how do I respond to these? But we'll get give sentiment. Um, I do want to go and give the

but at least want to say it now, and we'll come back on this in. As we're talking about movies like John Wick breaking bad, Harry Potter's, you really got to think through, hey, just because you might be able to redeem John Wick, I'm not going to tell your age, I was about to, as someone in their 30s doesn't mean that a 13-year-old should watch John Wick. Just because, by the way, even like, I love, I love the-- - Permissible versus helpful. - I love the Marvel movies, I love Avengers in-game, Tony Stark at the end laying down his life, and at this point, if you like, Paul at a spool, or you've had time, bro. - You've had time. - You've had plenty of time. - You've had plenty of time. But I wouldn't show that to a six-year-old. They're not ready for that, there's too much mature. So again, I want to say, and part of this is, even though something's gonna be redeemed, you do have to keep asking the questions, hey, what is appropriate for each individual person at their individual stage of life and their stage of their faith? I want to go ahead and throw that in there real fast. - Permissible, helpful. - Yep, that's good. - There's a difference. - Can I, should I? - That's right. - Okay, so now, let's dive in. Here we go. - Harry Potter. - Okay. - Let me start here, before I give you what I think about it, where we disagree.

So first of all, you gotta clarify this. The Bible is not against the use of imagination. Epic fantasy, creativity, fiction stories, supernatural themes, the Bible is not against those things necessarily. But it is against witchcraft, divination, sorcery, necromancy. And again, when we have these conversations, 'cause we're not just gonna talk about Harry Potter, we're gonna talk about some of these other things that also have elements of like, quote unquote, magic, and what does that even mean? We have to define what those terms mean. Here's why I don't like Harry Potter and why I would not want to bring that into my life or into my family. My argument, Paul, is not necessarily, oh, Harry Potter has magic, therefore it's demonic. That's not what I'm saying, okay? My general argument for this conversation would be, Harry Potter glorifies something the Bible explicitly condemns. And the specific things that glorifies, I believe, is spiritually dangerous. That's my argument. Okay, so again, I just wanna clarify, it's not because it's got magic in it, therefore, demonic, automatically discarded. That's not what I'm saying. I would say Harry Potter glorifies something the Bible

explicitly condemns and the specific things it glorifies, I believe, are spiritually dangerous. Let me just read Deuteronomy chapter 18, verse 9 to 12. And I wanna show you for a reason. - This is where Harry begins to lay the hammer down. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're just reading the Bible. And then you tell me why the Bible's wrong. Okay, go ahead. Let's get it out. - Here we go. - That's a joke, that's a joke. We're having fun. - Here we are. - Deuteronomy 18, 9 through 12. There shall not be found among you, anyone who practices divination, and I bolded that on purpose, or tells fortunes, or interprets, omen or omen. - I say omen, but you say omen is fine. - Or interpret omen. What'd you say? - I say omen. - Omen, or interprets omen, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a necromancer. That's somebody who talks to the dead, or one who inquires of the dead. For clarity. For whoever does these things, is an abomination to the Lord. Okay, as Christians, when we see those things,

the Bible explicitly condemns, back to our reject receiver team. We reject those, okay? Agree with that? - We have that specific question. - Okay, great, okay, great. - We reject doing those things. - We reject the things the Bible, God rejects. - Yes. - Great, right, great. Now, let me-- - For the record, I don't think anyone should practice sorcery or get into it. - Great, that's your clarity. - Yeah, it's bad. - Just for clarity. - Just for clarity. - That was not clear before. I just want to go ahead and say that right now. - We agree on that. - I thought the reason I hesitated is 'cause I thought you were trying to trick me right there. - No, bro. - I thought you were playing a jet-on mount game, which, you know, Jedi is just, you know, magic without the wand. But, you know-- - Hold on, hold on. I'm working there. - Keep going, keep going.

- I'm sorry, I'm interrupting you. - We're just reading the Bible. - Yeah. - Krenn, can you pull it up again? So here's what I want to do. - I want to grab the word and apply it to the world, and in this case, I want to grab the word here, Deuteronomy, and just put it side to side next to Harry Potter. - Yeah. - So here's what I would say. So I'm just going to go in order. You see those if you're watching on YouTube and Spotify. I'm showing the verse, and I've bolded the words that the Bible uses from the ESV, and then I just want to compare it to Harry Potter. So let me start with sorcery. The central characters in Harry Potter are explicitly witches and wizards. People know that in Hogwarts, it's a school to actually teach you how to do that. That's in the Bible, spells and incantations. That's one of the fundamental skills students are taught in Hogwarts, and when they exercise those things, they're seen as heroic. Divination. Divination is literally a class at Hogwarts, including crystal balls, tea leaf reading, palmistry, dream interpretation, attempts to predict the future.

Bro, this is like, by the way, when people hear this, it's like, this is real stuff. This is not made up. Like that list I just read to you is not something's like, oh, what could we, how could we be like, you know, like a little fantasy star? Like, those are real things. And so, let me keep going, and by the way, these are, I'm just grabbing the words from Deuteronomy, interpreting omens. That's one of the things you're doing, which is interpreted as an omen of death. Let me keep going. Charms, it is literally a Hogwarts subject where students learn magical incantations to produce supernatural effects. Being a charmer, a medium, a necromancer that's talking to the dead with spirits. Harry uses the resurrection stone to summon apparitions of his deceased loved ones, and there's an ongoing communication with ghosts at Hogwarts. Now, the problem, somebody's like, okay, what's your point? The problem is not necessarily, necessarily that these elements are in this particular story. The Bible also has elements of witchcraft. When you read in multiple parts of the Bible, there's witchcraft or sorcery, there's necromancy as well. But the whole point of the Bible, or the whole point of those elements being in there is that this is bad for you.

This is not something that we do, or we emulate, or we copy, or this is not something you want for your life. And so when I see Harry Potter, and I see these elements one, they're everywhere, two, Harry Potter portrays all of these elements as good, exciting, and heroic, and in many ways, we are invited to love these characters, see them as heroes and love what they do. And so as a Christian, I reject that. I don't agree with that. And so if that is true, and by the way, dude, everything changes when you become a parent. Like one thing is for you and I to be like, well, what about me and you? Like, that's fine. We can, you know, we can debate that. But then you have a son or a daughter, and then you're thinking, okay, what am I bringing to my family? And it's kind of my job to figure out what that is. - Steven, from talking to parents real quick on this, going, we don't have to put up on the screen, but that spectrum of more permissive, more restrictive. You and I, as parents of what we consume, we might be able to be more permissive because we are more mature. But we should be more restrictive with our kids than we are more permissive. By the way, that should change over time, because we have to help them learn to discern for themselves.

But I do want to highlight that as a parent. I don't want people to think, oh, because I watch that, they can watch that. I read that we got to really make sure in how I think, keep going, keep going. - So let me just wrap it here, and then I'm going to let you tell me why I'm wrong. (laughing) So when I see all of this, and I know, and by the way, I know we have different backgrounds, like America, you know, when you see some of these things, like these are real practices in real life, and if this is true about Harry Potter, and it's portraying it as something good and virtuous, when it is not, why would I even want to expose my family to something that is glorifying something that is spiritually dangerous and that God hates? - Yeah. - I'm gonna leave it there, I got more, but I'm gonna leave it there. - I told you all week, and I said to the day, I was afraid of this, 'cause you got the high ground, bro. I mean, you got the first public, good job walking through those, and connecting to Harry Potter. Like, dude, if we were in a court of law, I'd be in a pot of trouble right now. So probably we're in the court of public opinion on all the different platforms this is on, and it's just you and I hanging in chat.

- Yeah. - You wanna give some thoughts, and then, but I'll keep this tight, and-- - Tell me if you agree or disagree. - I agree on certain things, but let me poke some holes. And just follow me for a second. - Wait, what do you agree on? - I mean, I definitely agree with Superject, witchcraft, and that many of these things are done in the real world, and I would say, if someone watches movies, like Harry Potter, and I just hear about it, anything that has magic in it, including Lord of the Rings and Clons of Narnia, and that leads them towards real world magic. - We should reject that. - No, she'd get away from it. But let me ask you questions. I'm taking you somewhere. Just trust me here, just trust me. - By the way, before people were listening, 'cause I don't know if that was clear. - We will address the difference between what I think-- - Yeah, I think when or when it is, we're having the conversation. - Narnia and Lord of the Rings in just a second. - Is killing and murdering a real world activity? - Yes. - Is murdering in John Wick? - Yes. - Does the movie explicitly glorify that murdering?

- You could argue that. - It does. - And yet you said earlier that you liked it and can watch it. - Yes. - So you made my argument for me. - Keep going. - So my point is-- - Keep going. - And by the way, again, just to remind people, you and I would both, I think, say this is an area of conscience, not as simple as yes, no. And the reason is 'cause you've not talked about all this off camera before. 'Cause there are some people who, Carlos would say, "Hey, Carlos, because you watch Lord of the Rings and Clons of Narnia, you're a hypocrite, not like people from the more permissive side. There's people more restrictive than you saying, not only should we not watch Harry Potter, we shouldn't watch Lord of the Rings and we shouldn't watch Clonks of Narnia and what would you say to them? Well, that's good for your conscience, right? But don't impose it on you. - Sure, sure, sure, sure. - So I think you're like me and that we would both say that this is a conscience issue, right? - What, specifically? - Can a Christian watch Harry Potter

and it not automatically be a sin? Would you say that? - Correct. I would say, I would not say that if you, if anybody ever, everywhere watches Harry Potter then they're in saying I would not say that. - Yes, yes. - Just to clarify for people. And on that spectrum, you're more restrictive than I am. I'm more permissive. And by the way, what I want to clear up for people right now is I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not in terms of like, you have a wrong view. I'm saying this is an area of conscience. it's not necessarily in me to say, "Hey, if that's where God is convicting you, "it probably would actually not be good for me "to twist your arm and to try to change your opinion." So when I give what I'm about to give, I'm more trying to explain why, even though I've heard everything you've said, I still land on the more permissive side. I just wanted to give that context of what this is really about. So the reason, and I set you up a little bit, Carlos, I'm sorry, of why I set you up earlier when I asked you about the John Wick scenarios of how you can not do those things, but you can watch them and not immediately be sending and take them in. If you use that train logic,

I think you have to land at the exact same place with Harry Potter, 'cause both John Wick and Harry Potter are breaking about it in so many other places. It has things that happen in the world world and can't happen in the world world. In those movies, it glorifies them. And yet, you would say earlier in those other cases, you can still watch them. You said it was possible. You didn't say Christian should, but you said at least, hey, it depends on the situation. I would argue this is the same case here. We can go back a little bit forth more, but I'm not saying, again, for clarity's sake, for everybody and for you and me, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that this is why I still land in probably the more permissible camp, 'cause I'm gonna say, hey, if we use that logic in so many other places besides magic, then we should be consistent in its application. Is that makes sense? - Yes, we should be consistent, but I do think there's differences. - Okay, okay. - Like when you compare Harry Potter to like John Wick, for example, back to what I said before, I'm not sure that I'm seeing that MC man.

I'm glorifying murder here. It's more of a, there's a sense of like, there's a justice sense, there's corruption being eliminated or injustice being eliminated. Now, again, you're not what the movie is. And how it shows those killings, it's pretty, it's doing it for a while factor. - I think it's abatable. - Okay, let's do it. - It's abatable that what is being really elevated at the highest level. - Yeah, murder or is it justice? - Yeah. - What do you think? What do you think? Is it murder or is it justice? - I would say it is glorifying violence. There's no way around it. - Is it murder, is it glorifying murder? - Yeah, he's murdering them. - But is it at the highest level? - Is it glorifying murder or justice? - Or is it justice? - Or is it justice? - What it can do if you do it. - I think it's justice by the way. - Is that you can redeem it. I'm gonna use the word you use. It can redeem it.

So that's where I'm gonna actually put a pin there and I wanna hit something else and then we can keep going on anything. - Just because we're moving on, I think it's justice that is highest. And this is where I would compare it today. It's a little different to the hair and so on. - And actually, I wanna jump to that here in just a second. So in terms of those saying, hey, it glorifies the misheros. The Lord of the Rings glorifies Gandalf as a hero and he is a wizard. And so I've made this joke with you off camera is like, so you're telling me that if we showed Gandalf at Wizardry School, it would be sinful, but now because he's a full grown wizard, all of a sudden, it's okay. - Yeah. - And so my point is to say like, yeah, it's, well, but my point is to say, they're both doing things that you just said that the Bible explicitly says is sinful and yet he's doing it and Christians have no problem. I'm more just, again, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying this is why I'm more permissive than it. - So here, here's-- - Hold on, hold on, before you go to this. - Yeah. - So Gandalf, first of all, he's more like an angel. He's called wizard, but if you research it-- - Yeah, he's a valor.

He's more like a nerd. - He's like a nerd. - That's the name and the lures. - Isn't it Myar? - Well, there's, yeah, he's not valor. He's Myar. - Oh, okay. - Valor higher being Myar, lower being of him. - Okay, so he's a Myar. - But he's called a what? - He's called a wizard. - Yes, he uses his staff and says spells. - So, hold on, hold on. So this is why I think it's important to define our terms. Because he's not a human seeking to use supernatural for a bit in power, which is a definition of sorcery. So again, I'm not saying, therefore, everything is fine. I'm not saying that, yeah, I'm just saying they're different. - I would say-- - And hold on, hold on, and I guess we're now in the conversation. - This is the fun part. - So with Lord of the Rings, you got to zoom out for the whole story. So first of all, you mentioned Gandalf, not really a human, more like a spiritual angelic being, I suppose, somebody might say, well, it does have elements of witchcraft. You're right, it does. The mouth of Sauron is a living man who learns sorcery. He's the villain.

The witch king of Angmar is a human king who became a sorcerer. He's the villain. When Tolkien talks about necromancy, domination of whales, dark sorcery, corrupt spiritual powers, communicating with evil powers, those things are associated overwhelmingly with evil, which that is true. - So real quick, that is correct. - Gandalf in Salem, in the Salem witch trials, and he had a staff and he was doing spells, would they consider him a witch or a wizard? - Absolutely. - Would they consider that sin? - The people condemning them, clearly they have because they're awesome. - The point is that yes, there is bad magic, but that could make the same counterpoint as Harry Potter, where people, there's bad magic that use for bad, but there's good magic that's used for good. And it's the same. Anyways, the next point, here's what I'd say. And again, just, I'm keep clearing around these people. And everyone, again, for people watching. I hope that, by the way, we're exhibiting is that we can fashionly and firmly disagree, and both get some good points from each other, glorifies and elevates wizardry and sorcery and everything I just read from the book of

Deuteronomy. It seems like it was just straight from the book. And what I just explained about Lord of the Rings. Do you agree with that? Yes. And I could say the same thing for Gandalf. I think it elevates. I mean, I'll put it this way. The everybody says this day, you shall not pass. If there are kids who go around dressed up as Gandalf, if you didn't know the character Gandalf, you think, oh, they're just a wizard. My point is, is it real quick? I'll just respond with this one other thing. And I'll just lay out my case of why I'm a little bit more permissible. Again, we're both in air. We're both people who say this is an area of conscience. You're going to be more restrictive. And here's why maybe summarize your view. You're going to say, generally, you would advise people not to. I'm going to be, I'm going to get this a little bit more. I'm saying, hey, generally, it's really case by case, both by movie and by person and family. Before I get to that, and you talked about how it redeems it. Those are those other stories redeem it. A person who's a fan of Harry Potter can say the exact same thing. In fact, there's an interview with J.K. Rowling who says, "There is a lot of Christian imagery in her books that's undeniable, but I never wanted to talk to openly about it because I thought it might show people who just wanted the story where we were going." So she's saying in this that she had a specific place where we're going. I will say spoiler it if you've never seen him and you don't want to, not because you don't want to watch him ever, but because you don't know the story goes. Now might be a good time to skip ahead. In the last book, the hero of the story in order to defeat the Dark Lord, the evil one, gives up his life and raises from the grave to defeat him. That sounds a little familiar. In fact, I would argue that that is more explicit Christian imagery than is in Lord the Rings. And I'm a massive Lord of the Rings fan. So I'm not trying to say then, oh, it's a Christian book. I'm trying to say that in the same way that you made the argument earlier with John Wick, that you can exclude the bad things because it's pointing to a higher value of justice and you redeeming it. I'm saying that someone could, not that they should, they could watch Harry Potter and do the same thing. All right, you want me to have a quick case? We'll make this fast. We'll make this fast. What's fun is, dude, you and I could go for two hours and you know, I'm trying to decide if we should like, if I should play moderator or if I should be like, oh, wait, hold on. I know you're ready. I'll tell you, man. We should, there's a guy named Jason Howardson who's in our team who we've actually called sometimes behind the scenes filming us like bantering back and forth for fun because it's, it's quite a show. Okay, hold on. Can I actually, I want to push back on me.

Okay, okay. So you're saying, oh, there's a Christian story. Therefore, it's okay. I would put it this way. I'm just going to be real with you. I think that the Harry Potter movies have more overt Christian themes than Home Alone, which else says later it was a Christian movie earlier this year. It was a Christian movie. Yeah, well, great. But moral things. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, so what about like, so let's say, I'm trying to figure out what direction I take this one, but let's go here. So, so where do you draw the line, Paul? So what about like hex, for example, you know, like, you know, I don't know if you know this, this is like a movie, this thing's coming out with this movie, 16 year old girl, possessive supernatural, magical abilities. She enters quote unquote hex, a secret magical realm inhabited by witches and uncovers family secrets. Her magical abilities become central to her journey, discovering her identity, and where she belongs. Where do you draw the line? That's a good question. So I can't speak to X because I haven't watched it. That's part of my art. You know, you get the idea. I would be more reticent just because I haven't watched it. You know, and I was by the way, more reticent early days of Harry Potter and early days of Harry Potter, man, it was a big thing Christian circle. It's like, don't watch this. This is evil, this demonic. But then as the story was told, especially the last one when they see what happens, it was noticeable that Christians became more open to it because it was a pretty overt Christian themes that were in those final movies. So with hex on, but I will say, I forget the name of the movie, but there is a movie that came out when I was, I think, in middle school high school that had Neve Campbell in it about these female witches. And it was not good. It was like, I mean, you just want glorifying bad. It was glorifying bad witchcraft and really based in the real world. Good, good witchcraft is fine. Bad witches is not okay. No, but I would say like, and that one, it'd be harder to redeem is my point and in this point, and you got to let me make my point here in my case in a minute, the world that was depicting in was like, it was not as much based in fantasy. It was more trying to base it in reality. And it was way darker. It was just way darker. Like, my point is, and I disagree with what you just said. There are some movies, well, I back it reversed it on you. So like, can I talk to the minority and Lord of the Rings, witchcraft is okay. Even like there is witchcraft and in game. Let me just let me let me tell you why I disagree with that, because you said this is difference between reality and fantasy is what you said. This is why I think Harry Potter is

different than, than, you know, we joked around before, because I said that C.S. Lewis is a Christian author and token. It was a Catholic as well. But I think that matters. So I'm not saying that therefore they can do it and JK Rowling cannot. But I will say, again, here's my concern and not, you know, coming up as a dad and as a pastor. My concern is some of the stuff that JK Rowling portrays in Harry Potter, they're not fantasy. They're 100% real. video. So this is an interview, J.K. Rowling, in 1999, she said this, and I quote, "I'm mentioning a creature or a spell." They're asking her about the book. What's real and what's not real? She said, "Hey, I'm not into witchcraft." Good. But then she said, "I'm mentioning a creature or a spell "that people used to believe genuinely worked." Of course he didn't, she says. "But then I will find out exactly what the words were, "with the words talking about spells or incantitions. "And I will find out exactly what the characteristics "of that creature or ghost was supposed to be "about a third of the stuff that crops up is stuff "that people genuinely used to believe in Britain." So here, in addition to the fact that Harry Potter uses the same terms from the book of Deuteronomy, the same practices, and the author saying that at least a third is like legit real stuff, I'm like, I will say no to that. - We could go in circles on this. I probably should get to the point where I make my view. My point would be, you could again,

make the same accusation with Gandalf. And again, like literally, you love Avengers in-game. What's the best scene in Avengers in-game? - The very last game. - The very last game. - No, it's at the end of the final fight. And what's the best part? There were like clips where people were cheered when guess what everybody comes back. What did they come back through? Magic portals created by who? - Dr. Strange. - Dr. Strange who is literally a term of source for a supreme. My point is, is that-- - And I would be against that. - And by the way, not created by, to my knowledge, to Christian, so my point is, but in that moment, I don't think that all of a sudden you made a cross in front of you trying to ward off the demonic. I think in that moment, you could sort out. In fact, my guess is in that moment, you were happy that everybody's coming back. I don't even know that you, I'm guess, yeah. - On your left. - My point, yeah. Oh, it's the best scene, bro. My point is just simply this. And then we gotta start speeding this up. My point is that, man, even if all those things are true and I'm about to make this case, it is a fantasy novel and movie.

And you have to, you said earlier, what am I watching? That includes the genre. 'Cause I would ask you, why do you feel-- - With real stuff, okay. - I'm jumping ahead a little bit for a second. Well, how do you know that some of this stuff? 'Cause they do their research that you had from Tolkien and C.S. Lewis wasn't from the real world as well, that people actually did those things. So real quick on that, why do you think, actually, I'm gonna wait for that point. Can I just make my case? - Please, please do. - Yeah, we said it would be like 35 to 40. This one would be like 50 to 60. We apologize for that one. So, here's my thing. My position is not that Christians should watch Harry Potter or should watch any movie. 'Cause I would actually, to your point earlier, I do think there's a spectrum and there's certain things that would say, "Hey, I would be slower to watch that or read that," than others, than others. I would like, for example, I would have no qualms with a Christian parent reading "Cronocos of Narnia," even though it explicitly has the word magic in it. I would have no qualms. - Although, I will say, personally, I don't love it. - Yeah.

- But I would agree with you. - Yeah, but anyways, so what point, there's a spectrum. I'm not saying that they should, I'm more saying that they can, I'm gonna be a little bit more permissive for you than you, I should say. But here is what I would say. It's a matter of individual conscience, 'cause while these things are forbidden in the Bible and we should not participate them in the world world, it is different when we approach fiction. You laid this case out earlier for me when I asked you about John Wick and about Breaking Bad. I'm saying if we use that same logic, you have to apply it to this too. That a book or a movie can take something that the Bible condemns a sin and that it appears like a movie is glorifying it, but it can be, if done rightly, redeemed. So if you-- - I agree. - I agree with Harry Potter. Number one, (laughs) depiction and consumption does not equal participation. So depicting something does not mean participating in it and consuming it does not automatically equal participating. - I disagree. - If it does automatically mean that, then an actor who portrays Judas is also betraying Jesus in real life. - I agree with you. - Yeah, I'm just saying,

you got to really follow that logic for a second. It means that when Jesus tells parables that contain sinful actions that people hearing those are participating in them. I don't think any rational person would make that argument. - Agree, and yet it does matter what you can chew. - It does, but I'm saying it doesn't mean, I mean, automatic participation, 'cause for example, can we get the clip of actually when they come back in the portals? So real quick, 'cause if you make the argument, put you in an awkward spot, I told you I'd do this if you ever come back strong. So you know where I've seen this before is not just in movies. I've seen this scene, I believe in our church because we showed in games. And so if you're telling me that this is-- - I'm not saying that. - It's a patient in magic. - I'm not saying that. - But you see them. But there are people who do it. My point is that it doesn't necessarily mean, it can mean that, but it doesn't audically mean. - I agree with you. - Number two, so that's point number two is, point number one, participation. I mean, consumption or depiction does not automatically equal participation. Point number two, we have to watch or read something according to its genre.

I would say that Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Krocofus and Narnia, so many of the things that we've talked about today belong to the fantasy genre. And in fantasy genre, the idea is you have a secondary imaginative world that does not exist, that contains supernatural phenomena, including magic. And in that style of literature, they're using things from that world to teach us about themes that still apply. see us Lewis and Tolkien were devout Christians when they wrote "Croncos of Narnia" and "Lord of the Rings" which had magic. Why did they feel the freedom to include things that the Bible forbids? - That's a good question, first of all. - I think I can give the answer. - Go ahead. - It's because they were professors of literature and they knew that fantasy genre is not the same world as the real world. You can use magical elements and things that would be necessarily wrong here in the real world but then can use that to point to deeper themes and stories and things, sorry themes and ideas that do apply in our world. Now, people can disagree on some of what I just said and it's like, where's the line? Again, what I'm laying out right now

is not why I'm right and you're wrong. Again, that's not the point. The point is, this is why I'm a little bit more just permissible 'cause I say, hey, if someone, here's a key thing, can watch Harry Potter and remember this is fantasy and not that, hey, this happens in the real world should even, by the way, if it bogs some things that some people may be trying in the real world. If people remember that, then I say, it can then be redeemed. - And yet, those two guys, they also tend to portray anything that's generally speaking related to witchcraft and sorcery and magic, dark magic, especially, something evil and bad. I suppose to Harry Potter, that's the opposite. - I think it's equal. Anyways, final few things. Enjoying the story doesn't mean approving of everything his characters do. I don't have a spin a lot on that. We've already hashed this out. But here's what I will say, given all those things. Again, this is just why I'm laying out the case that Christians can, I'm not sure she should have, then I would be a little bit more permissive, specifically with Harry Potter. Christian freedom still requires discernment. And so I think it'd be helpful in a few minutes for us to begin talking about, hey, even though we land in different spots,

I think it'd be helpful for us maybe 'cause I've written down some questions like, in a few minutes, I think it'd be helpful to get some questions to our listeners and our viewers, either for themselves or if their parents are their kids, like, hey, before, not just Harry Potter, before you let them watch anything or you want to read anything, here's some helpful questions for you guys. We'll get to that in a second. Any thoughts on what I shared? I know you actually agree completely and we've already hashed out a lot of this already, but any general thoughts? - Yeah, and again, I go back to what I said at the beginning, again, the Bible's not against imagination, epic fantasies, creativity, fiction stories, supernatural themes. Sometimes, Paul, and I think this is important, especially 'cause we talk about Marvel. Like if somebody asked me, is Marvel okay? I would say it depends. - Yeah, it's sometimes the line between those things, like fantasy, fiction, and things the Bible explicitly calls the sin, they get blurry and they get intertwined, now more and more. And honestly, that's where Marvel's going for the nerds out there. So it is harder to distinguish, oh, that's good, that's not good.

So then if you mix it all together, then you're like, ah, but then, and so just something to keep in mind, but I may not agree with you. I disagree on the fact that Harry Potter's the same as Narnia and Lord of the Rings, disagree there, but I agree in the fact that, hey, regardless, when you consume content, man, we are called to exercise discernment. - I think we're out of time to list all the movies, 'cause I think it's probably more helpful to get to the questions, but just for clarity. I'm not saying they're the exact same, but I am saying they're close, you and I would maybe, I would not land where you do, in terms of how far apart they are, they're closer, but I would also just say clarity. I don't think they're the same. My point is, is more, is, hey, if they have some common elements, we have to use the same standards for each, and so, yeah. - Yeah, we just disagree on that, and by the way, part of why we do this is to show people, that's okay. - Hey man, that's okay. - It's okay, 'cause again, this is an area of conscience, and here's what I would say, like, what would be wrong right now? Actually, we use you, me, as a test case, what would be wrong, and I don't get this from you at all, by the way, is if you were like, Paul,

- Sometimes, okay. - You're such, whatever. Like, what we, in a sense, we both think we're each other wrong. We've been arguing, but where we would be wrong is this, is if you were looking at me saying, Paul, you're so unholy, in fact, you're kind of sinful, the fact that you held this opinion, and you think you're better than me because of it. It'd be wrong for me to look at you and say, oh, you up type person, you need to lighten up. It'd be wrong for me, by the way, and I love that you even ask, is there a line, 'cause that goes back to our original conversation, when we're talking about the watchouts for each side, I just wanna highlight that for a bit. Now, do you think, I think it'd be helpful to, like, give some people some questions to think about, for themselves and their kids, what do you think? - Yes, and then I have some additional thoughts, just kind of like that. - How about, I'll just give a few questions, these aren't exhaustive, and I'll try to do these a little bit more rapid fire, and then you can end this on a pastoral word. Okay, I'll give you just a few questions for yourself, although this could apply to your kids as well. Anything you're watching, whether it's Harry Potter, Hexed, but any other type of movie, John Wick, whatever. Man, what is drawing you to it?

What is actually drawing you to it? Are you primarily looking for an opportunity to indulge lust, and purity, or another sinful desire, or are you looking to take something good while leaving out the bad? How does it portray evil? Does it portray evil as something bad and be rejected? I don't actually mean evil acts. I mean, the idea of evil in general. What does this encouraging me to admire? What effect does this actually have on me? I'll just be real fast, real quick with me on this. Like, I started to watch Game of Thrones when I was younger, and after four or five episodes in, I had to stop. it's filled with a lot of violence and nudity and some other bad elements. Like, I literally just felt awful afterwards. I felt like I'd eaten two extra large pizzas and I just felt and I'm like, and then so for me, I'm like, hey, this is not having a good effect on my soul. I'm gonna stop. Now, other Christians might have been able to handle it. I couldn't, so for me, that was a conscious thing. I had to put it down. So what effect does this have on me? Does this fit with any particular weaknesses or your season of like, like so for example, like we joke together about partying movies and drinking movies, like, hey, there might be some movies that a Christian can watch and not even think about that.

But if you're coming out of a partying lifestyle and drinking lifestyle, probably not good for you to watch movies or consume content that glorifies that or has that in it. Here's a key question. Am I truly free to stop? So if I love this TV series or this movie series or this book and I began to feel convicted, do you really think you could stop? If not, that is showing that it's beginning to hold, have a hold on you and because of that, I think you should stop. All right, so for parents, here's just a few things. There's a lot of more overlap. Is your child ready to process this? Not just again magic, anything with magic, but any kind of movie at all. It's like, I'll just be honest, I would not have young kids watch even the older Harry Potter's 'cause it has some pretty dark things like murder and death in there that they're just not ready for. So that's just, you gotta be like, is your child ready to process that? When it comes to fantasy movies, can they distinguish fantasy from reality? That's a key one. A few other things. Then I'll give you some pastoral counsel. What conversations will this movie or show or book require? And are you prepared to have them?

'Cause I will say, it is parental malpractice. If this is going to open up some questions or some things in them that could potentially get in them that you don't want in them and you're not willing to walk through them with it and not even say because of that, are you willing to have conversations with them? Are you willing to read the book with them and watch the movie or show with them? If not, it's probably wise for you to not let them do it. Probably wise for you to not let them do it. Then finally like, hey, how is your child actually responding to this? So let's say you guys begin to watch a show and again, that just match it but anything. And you see them responding poorly or is having a bad effect on them? Are you willing to say, hey, we're going to actually stop this and we're not going to watch this anymore? I hope those are just a few helpful questions that people can ask us, just some good filters through what you consume and what your kids are consuming. What you got for a final press or whatever. - Yeah, just to lend a plane here, we hit an hour 'cause we thought it was going to be 30 minutes hilarious. So just want to echo what you said. Paul, something might be permissible for one Christian, but the same thing might be unwise for another. So it is possible that you're like, God, can I do this?

And God's like, others can, you can. It is possible. I think, again, this is a conscious thing. This could be also a specific calling, like, hey, maybe it could be permissible but for you and your family in this season, whatever that looks like, God's like, not you. It is possible. Number two, what you consume most is what you can form too. Romans 12 to do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Again, check out your inputs and then evaluate your outputs, right? So if you're wrestling with fear and anxiety, probably not the best idea to bring a horror movie into your life. - Great point. - Probably not the best idea, again, if you're depressed, like you got to evaluate what you're consuming, what you're bringing to your home. Parents, especially husbands, you have a responsibility to figure out, hey, this, yes, that, no. Last thing, number three, just because it's popular, it doesn't mean it's for you. Hey, man, we're word people. What we just did with Paul right now is we want to wrestle with the text and say, hey, what does that mean

and how do we apply the text to real-life context? And so we're word people, not worldly people. Maybe everybody else out there is a thing that doesn't mean it has to be a thing for you. And so, man, we want to be sober-minded. We want to be biblical. We want to be humble. Like you said, this isn't about, well, I'm right, therefore, let me go on social media and tell everybody why they're wrong. It's not what we're trying to do. And ultimately, we want to be spirit-led. So we are, especially in this season of Halloween, just to find a warning. Bro, there's some dark things out there. - Yeah. - And again, I would say things are more spiritual than maybe people realize. And so we want to, again, we want to see the world through the lens of the word. - Love it, man. - Oh, hey. - As we're wrapping up a couple of things. Number one, we'll make a commitment right now that next week's episode, we're gonna be 20 to 30 minutes. - This is long. We'll only do 20 to 30 minutes to fulfill our word. - Careful. That's a bold commitment. - I'm gonna go for it.

Over two weeks, we'll average out to the right amount of time. - 20 minutes? - I said 20 to 30. 20 to 30 minutes. - You got a good amount. - 20 to 30. - 20 to 35 minutes. Well, point is, average the first two weeks these together and it'll equal out to what we promised. Number two, I just want to feel people say this is like, what I love is is that even though you and I just land on two different places in this man, I love you as a brother and as a friend, as a co-pastor. And I think you're a good and godly man and I'll learn from you. So even today, you challenged me with some things to think about. And again, part of that is I just want to say that in front of everybody, but part of that. is modeling what I hope Christians will do with other people where you, and areas of conscience where you disagree, that you can have these kinds of good and uplifting and sharpening conversations. It's gonna get tense at some points, but listen, as I like to say, if iron and sharpening and iron sparks are gonna fly. - That's good. - But that also just means that you're both getting sharper and better. - Yeah, and I wanna say, man, I agree with you. I enjoy, like people don't even realize like we,

this is like tame, this is like, this is nothing compared to some of the conversations you and I get to have. And bro, like I learn from you, like every single, like this is why I enjoy having conversations with you because I genuinely don't have these conversations with like other quote unquote normal people that are not like chat, g-pulce. But when I do, I'm challenged and I'm like, hey, this guy, like I need to, I need to learn, you know, I'm learning all the time from you. And that's my point. And I appreciate it. In addition to you being super smart, you're super humble. And I mean that and you're a great pastor. - Thank you, sir. - Thank you for wrestling with me here a little bit. And yeah, man, that was the episode. - That was it? All right, been next week, live free. - Live free brother, we'll see everybody next week. - Well, hey, thanks so much for listening. Lake Point Church is a movement for all people's in no Christ, live free and change the world for God's glory. If you're already a member of a local church, we want you giving there. But if you'd like to make a donation to help this message go further, faster, it genuinely helps us boost getting out to more people.

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