Remove Every Barrier Between People And God | Ed Young Interviews Erwin McManus

I went to my wife and I said, they want me to become the pastor, what do you think? And she said, you should never be a pastor. With this worship movement that we're experiencing, is there the passion, the zeal for evangelism like it could be? A lot of times worship movements are very self-indulgent. Jesus's mission is about the outsider. It is. And it isn't, hey, I just want you guys to glorify me. I think a lot of times we're writing for the wrong audience. No question. Yeah, we're preparing our message for the wrong person. And I said, you think you're free? You're out of prison, but behind every corner of somebody waiting to kill you, you think you're tough. And I realized he is tough, but he looked at me and he said, you know, you and me, we're the same. I said, we are? And he goes, yeah, I'm radical for evil and you're radical for God. Because of that guy, he sent the word out that if someone tried to harm me, he would kill them. Erwin, those are great stories, man. Speaking of crazy stories, what's it like working with your family? My job is to speak on behalf of the person who's searching for God and doesn't have a way to find Him yet. What I would say is that the best evidence that worship works is how you live your life. That's exactly right. Worship is not just what we do at Mosaic or Fellowship, it's 24-7. Everything we do, say, touch, and feel should glorify God. Hey, it's my pleasure to have on our podcast today, I'm telling you, this guy's a legend. Some call him a pastor, but see, I don't like when someone is as creative as him to go,

yeah, he's a pastor. No. Cultural architect, author, designer, speaker—somebody help me—mentor from Los Angeles, Erwin, thanks for being here. Hi, I'm so glad to be with you, Ed. Talk about a multifaceted, multi-creative person. That's exactly you. Of course. You're an incredible artist. I appreciate that. You're so gifted as a leader. It's a very unique combination that you carry yourself. Like you, Erwin, I try to incorporate my personality into who God's calling me to be. How have you done that in your life? Because you've done it brilliantly, Erwin. Well, I don't know if I've done it brilliantly. Maybe I have done it uniquely. I love it. I think it really begins in some ways of understanding who you are and the context in which you serve people the best. I lived in Dallas for quite a long time, for about a decade. And in fact, I was there when you launched your church, and you were so clearly gifted and designed for what you were doing. And I would say it's kind of funny because that was your pond. You were the mallard duck designed for that space. And I was a fish out of water in Dallas. And when I moved to Los Angeles, it really was a much more significant cultural fit for me. That's great. And I think some of it, when people say, well, how did you do things differently?

You really do need to understand yourself. I don't think I would have had the same impact somewhere else in the world. I think I had to find a place that matched the essence of who I was and the frequencies from which I spoke. And so that has been a part of it. And I did not grow up as a person of faith. I did not grow up in church. I became a follower of Jesus in college. And so I didn't have the advantage of having church legacy and church history, that genetic code. I mean, your dad was one of the greatest communicators, leaders that the church has had in the last hundred years. And so in some sense, I would say you had that genetic code and that environmental code. I didn't have that. So I'm trying to figure out how to fit in church, how to make it and navigate in that world. I mean, I grew up in Los Angeles. It's a very, you know, it's a very liberal space. It's a very countercultural, very anti-Christian. It's against really almost every cultural value that our faith would have. And I bet I know how to speak to this world. Yes, you do. And I know how to communicate to it. How did you start Mosaic? Okay, take me back. You ready? into LA. I mean, how does it, how does that work? Well, uh, I came to LA unemployed and, you know, I didn't have a salary. I didn't have, um, in a sense, a, a, um, an invitation to calling in that sense. Uh,

but I knew when I was around 23 years old, I was studying the world. And before I was married to my wife, Kim, I told her, uh, Los Angeles is a non-negotiable for me. I, I, I was studying human history, studying global movements. And again, I, you know, I'm 22, 23 years old. And I evaluated that human history does not evolve at the same rates that the future does not enter in to human history at the same time. And that Los Angeles was capital of the future that at that time, the future of humanity was being ushered in through LA. Disproportionately the influence of Los Angeles around the world, uh, was in that sense, immeasurable. And it was the storytelling capitals, the creativity capital. And so I remember telling Kim, when we were just dating that I have to go to Los Angeles because it's the future of humanity. And so it was, it was what drove me there. And we came here and we joined a small little church of a few hundred people in East LA. And they, they were, you know, um, great people, wonderful little church, uh, the pastor and his team, you know, they, they were very bright. And, um, I'd say even brilliant, which is part of what attracted me very, very smart people. Uh, but they were so out of touch with the world and so irrelevant to Los Angeles that it kind of, it disoriented me because here I am, I'm going to the church of LA. So I'm thinking, Oh, this church is going to be really futuristic. It's going to be really cutting edge. It's going to be very pioneering. And it actually, it was very much just a really good blue collar, you know, church with white people that in many ways were almost antithetical to Los Angeles. They were terrified of LA and never went into LA and lived very much isolated lives, which is what happens here in Los Angeles. A lot of people live very isolated, disconnected lives. And so that was, that was almost like a misfit for me.

And I was going to church and I would fall asleep a lot on Sundays. And, uh, and I, I don't do well sitting still. And my wife would tell me you have to stay awake. And I, and I would say, they have to help me. And, and, uh, at that time, the pastor was there asked me if I would start speaking and I would speak. And, and then he asked me if I would take over the church. And I never, I didn't think about being a pastor. I didn't really feel like that was what I was going to do in Los Angeles. I wanted to create concept films. I've worked as a futurist for companies. And, and I went to my wife and I said, they want me to become the pastor. What do you think? And she said, you should never be a pastor. I mean, that was like my wife just straight up saying, you know, you're the last human being that should be a pastor. And, and I'd spent 10 years working in the inner city with drug cartels, gangbangers, uh, assassins. And, and I worked in that world. And so it didn't matter that I didn't really fit the church because the church didn't fit that world anyway. And, but now I'm here in this situation and my wife made an agreement that if they voted unanimously, that I could become the pastor. And, and they did vote unanimously, like 130 people. But, um, I didn't know that a lot of them didn't vote at all and that they abstained and it did not go well, to be honest with you, Ed. I, um, I was probably the worst thing that could happen to that little church. You know, I started innovating and creating new approaches toward reaching people. And, and it just was, um, a disaster. And you know, back, back, back then though, we didn't know a lot about church planting. And I mean a little bit, but I mean, you were like flying blind, weren't you? For the most part. Every church I'd been a part of pretty much, I'd started from scratch by accident.

I didn't think of myself as a church planter. I just started reaching people that no one was reaching and then pulling them together. And then I started a church and all those churches still exist now, 40, 30, 20 years later. So I, I didn't realize I was leaving churches behind me. I was leaving a trail of church in my wake and, but I'd never tried to work with a church that existed. And, you know, one of the things I look back and I felt that then this is a really nice church. It's a good church. Um, it just wasn't capable of, um, reinventing itself, you know, because it was old wineskin trying to take a new wine. And, and so what I did in that context was I, I used a little building in East LA that they had, and I started bringing sofas and love seats. And every Sunday afternoon, I had a team of volunteers. We'd bring sofas, love seats, coffee tables. stack cameras, TVs up, and create this incredible experiential moment and began a church inside of that building at night, which outgrew the church that existed there within three months. And then in six months, we had, you know, like a thousand people coming from all over Los Angeles, artists and actors and dancers and sculptors and painters and designers. And we became what the Los Angeles Times described as the highest concentration of industry artists in the world. And it was just absolutely exciting. And it was reckless. And it was chaotic. And I made so many mistakes. But it was, it was the perfect space for my friends who did not know God. Yeah. And so we ended up doing is we ended up taking 50 of those people, it grew to like 500 to 1000. But I actually took about 50 of them that were the outliers, the ones that were most far away from from the culture of conservative faith. Yes. And I moved them into a nightclub with me that Prince owned. And you're kidding me. No, Prince owned at the glam slam downtown LA. It was the nastiest club in the city. I took that core group of people and we began mosaic really there. And I did not know that Erwin, completely underground, no marketing, no advertising before the internet. Right. You know, and it was completely word of mouth. Did you ever meet Prince? I did not meet Prince. But I did shoot a film on his street where he lived in LA. Well, that's good enough.

But I've met a lot of other people. I know. Yeah, I just I just Yeah. So you were so that's the beginning of mosaic right there in that club. Yes, really. Okay, from there. Where did it go? It went from there to? Well, then we ended up getting a larger club called the Mayan. It had like 1000 gods carved inside of it. And it was an active club. It was in the opening scene of the movie. I think it's collateral damage. Yes, which young fat. And it's a very iconic space. And we rented it from the the Russian owners who had it, we paid cash for the building in the parking lot. Oh, and, and we were there for like a decade. And it was it was so unusual, Ed. Yes. You know, because what I did is we would even script things where we would do mini series of like short films for eight weeks, and my talks would navigate through an entire mini series, we'd film it, we had stand up comedy, we had, you know, live installations, we had painters painting in the way before this was popular way before people started doing this. That's the way mosaic felt. And and even the name, I took church off of everything. And I just called it mosaic. It's an an art form of broken and fragmented pieces that are brought together by a master artist to create something beautiful, especially when light strikes through it. And that's why I need this mosaic. Brilliant. And people would say, well, how will it happen? How will people know it's a church? If you don't put church on it? I said, because we're not inviting Christians. We're only inviting people who don't know God. And one of the things I would do, Ed is after every talk, we would have a space and I would have like bodyguards. And you could only come in to a q&a. If you did not believe in God. And the only way you would come in as a Christian is if a non Christian needed you there as their support human. And and then after the gatherings, I would sit on a stool for two, three hours, answering questions from this room full of atheists, agnostic Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims. And that's how mosaic emerged. And and you saw a lot of people thought we became creative because we were called a creative church. But that wasn't at all. Yes, it was that we were so focused on reaching our friends that were so far away from faith, faith that we had to figure out how to creatively engage them with the message of Jesus. It was very, very different in that sense. And we did a survey and I'll close with this one Easter, where I asked a simple question, I said, if you're an atheist, and you're here today, and you would say, I'm an atheist. But if God were out there, I would be open to him. We had over 1000 adults respond saying, I'm an atheist. But if God's out there, I'm open that that doesn't even count how many people were there who didn't respond positively. Yes, those were just the positive

atheists. And and one of the things that we discovered is that when a person is looking for a church, especially when you know, when they're a believer, yes. When you're in the majority, you feel like you belong there. That's right. But a lot of Christians would come to our church, and we would have so many people who did not believe they would go, something doesn't feel right here. And I realized what it was is we never had home court advantage. For us, church was always an away game, and that made it very difficult. Very well said. Erwin, what would you say to young pastors, young leaders in the church today? In other words, do you feel as though people have that heartbeat for evangelism, for reaching out to the pagan like you're talking about, or would you say, wow, Ed, we really need to make some changes? Yeah, I think it's a great question. You know, Ed, generationally, I think you and I are closer to the same age. Yeah, we are. I'm a bit older than you, but... I'm 64. Okay, well, I'm 67, so I am. Okay, yeah, we're right there, baby. Yes. Yeah, right there. I think in our generation, creativity was not seen as a normative, and it was even seen as unspiritual. No, that's right. And so you're being superficial or, you know, violating the gospel. And one of the things that I think was different in people understanding, I think understanding us, and like your dad was incredibly evangelistic. Yes, he was. Like, he had a real heart to reach people. I think that was translated into your life and into your mission.

And a lot of pastors, I think, think, oh, we want to be creative. And I don't think that should be your goal. That's right. And creativity is a tool, it's a mechanism in a sense. And it's about having an intense desire to reach the outlier, the person furthest from the gospel, and removing every non-essential barrier between them and God. And then on top of that, making a way where the gospel makes sense to them. And so that's what I would say to pastors is, does your language, does your culture, do your strategies reflect an intense love for people who do not yet know Jesus? So even now at my age and in my stage of life, how long I've been doing this, I still tell my team, my job is to represent the person in this room who isn't here, who doesn't know Jesus yet. My job is to speak on behalf of the person who's searching for God and doesn't have a way to find Him yet. And that's the way I approach my perspective, my strategies, the way I address culture. It's not about what I like. It's not about what makes me feel good, you know, and it's really about how do I remove every obstacle between people and God so they can see Jesus clearly. And that for me is very exciting. Do you look back, Erwin, just historically for a second, okay, you had the Jesus movement, of course, and so much of that, you know, happened out in California, you know, with the Jesus music. And it seemed as though back in the late 60s, 70s, that evangelism was really the deal. Well, now I'm just wondering, this is me, I'm not a brilliant historian like you. With this worship movement that we're experiencing, which is awesome, I'm just wondering, is there the passion, the zeal for evangelism like it could be? I mean, as I look at these younger leaders, younger churches, I'm just, I'm posing the question to the cultural architect. Yeah, I think one of the differences, and you remember the Jesus movement existed in a very particular time.

Yes. You know, and so the expression of what evangelism and creating a church that connects to people was different then. Yes. That would be necessarily today. And what I would say is a lot of times, worship movements are very self-indulgent. Yes, I would too. Yeah, it's, and of course, we know how to flip the language, so we say, you know, it's all about God. Oh, yes. It's all about giving God glory. And but, you know, when we use that as our principal language, we're just simply saying, I'm going to replace Jesus's intention for the church above with mine. Because what Jesus said is go make disciples of all nations. That's right. You know, he said, you know, I mean, you're going to be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, to the ends of the earth. And so Jesus's mission is about the outsider. It is. And it isn't, hey, I just want you guys to glorify me. And I know that sounds really sacrilegious. Oh, no, no, no. Are you kidding me? That's like on fire. And I glorify God when I serve humanity and connect them to Jesus. And so that's why I think when singing is co-opted as the only form of worship, I think we don't understand worship. I agree. And I don't know, Erwin, I just feel as though, yeah, that we're really lacking, we are really lacking in exactly what you're saying.

Again, the worship movement is great, I understand it's about God, but I just feel as though we have forgotten about the outliers. And for me, what happened, I grew up in a Christian home, and due to sports, I was thrust into a very ungodly environment. So when we started Fellowship Church, you know, God, I did not want to come to Dallas, Erwin, I did not want to come to Dallas. Too many seminaries, too many televangelists, I didn't want to come up here whatsoever. And we started a church in Irving, Texas, and maybe God said Irvine, and I missed him. I'm kidding. So we start this church, and for 35 years, Erwin, I have thought about my teammates who did not know Jesus. How would they absorb, you know, and understand what's going on? Because what I found is this, when it comes to Christians, everybody wants to reach people until you start reaching people. And that's what you just said, much better than that. But I don't know, I just, and that's one of the one things, too, that I really admired Bill Hybels about. I remember Bill said something one time, he said, he said, the reason the church has gone missional is because the church has failed at being attractional. I've never forgotten that. Now I know, obviously Bill's had, he went off the rails and all that, but the thing that drew me to him, Erwin, no question, was what draws me to you, is your heart and his heart for the outliers. No, no, thank you. It's a fact. It's probably one of the biggest compliments I ever got with Bill Hybels. Erwin, it's a fact. Tell the truth and shame the devil. But seriously, Erwin, I just, and maybe I don't know how my, maybe I'm not even saying this in the right way, but I just, I just feel as though, um, this, this kind of worship

thing and it's, and I'm not saying it's bad, it's good. It, it, I feel like everybody is kind of Christian and, and, and, and we're in these stained glass fortresses and I don't know, I, I, I, I love that. But as you said, I mean, I mean, you got to turn out and think about the person that doesn't know Christ. And I like how you said it. I'm going to be their voice when you talk to your team. Yeah. You know, my, maybe I'm not saying this right, but my daughter, Maria is one of the greatest worship leaders in the world. I mean, Maria McManus-Goss is like one of the most talented worship leaders I've ever known in my life. And, and so we have a really high value for worship. What I would say is that the best evidence that worship works is how you live your life. That's exactly right. Yes. Worship is not just what we do at Mosaic or Fellowship, it's, it's, uh, 24 seven. It's everything we do, say, touch and feel should glorify God. Yeah. Yeah. I remember one time, um, early on in the journey of developing Mosaic, I got stopped in the parking lot by a leader at the church saying, Hey, we just need to let you know that we feel like the church has become too evangelistic. And I remember looking at them and saying, you know, I don't know a lot about the future, but one thing I can predict with absolute certainty is if you don't like the church this year because we're too evangelistic, you're going to hate us next year. Erwin, that's brilliant. Okay. Erwin, what would you say though, to young pastors right now who are watching this and going, man, I, I, I, man, what Erwin is saying is speaking to my heart.

I want to apply this value, uh, of, of, of reaching people. What would you tell them? Just don't turn people into a project, actually make friends with people who don't know God. How do you do that? How do you do that? I have, I have so many friends who don't know God. And, um, and, and that's changed over the years. I mean, yes, 30 years ago, my friends who did know God were all like drug dealers and gangbangers and cartel bosses. And you know, my friends who don't know God now are entrepreneurs and CEOs and and, you know, fortune 1000 kind of people, right? They're the same. Same. Yes. And yeah, and a huge part of it is I always told myself, I want to befriend the people who don't know God, that don't have any friends who do know God. Well, we say that again, or we say it again. I love that. Say it one more time. If you can. I want to be the friend to people who do not know God, who do not have friends who do know God. Whoa. And so you cannot know how many conversations I'm in with friends. I go, hey, I know that I'm like your your one friend who believes in Jesus. And and so I just I'm not going to harass you about it. You know, I just want you to know if you ever want to have a conversation and you may not know this. You may know this. I'm not sure.

But I do a lot of like business coaching. I knew that. Yes. Yeah. And in fact, today, I just you know, we're just finalizing a contract with the fastest growing voice AI company in the world. And you know, and they're they're bringing me on to their company to be basically their mentor, advisor. And and and one of the things I love is whenever I'm around people, because I can add value to their lives. And then we end up having this great faith journey. And when I work with these people, I think last year, I led this business mastermind and I had so many people who didn't know Jesus, except by the end of the year, every one of them had come to faith in Jesus. And I didn't have to initiate the conversation one time. It was amazing how I would help them turn their company around or I would help them build their company, the corporate culture. And then they always have a day they'd say, hey, could we do a session like on on spirituality? And I go, well, what do you mean? And you know, they go, you know, I'd like to talk about like God and, you know, like your faith. And I said and I was always tell them, all right, but that those can't be paid sessions because everything about Jesus is for free. That's right. And they go, oh, really? Because they're used to paying me to consult with them. And, you know, I go, yeah, once we start talking about God, once we start talking about Jesus, that's just friendship, you know, and across the board, every single one of them have come to faith in Jesus. And and and one of my friends who's really influential in the Mormon church, and he brought

me up to speak to like a thousand Mormon business people. And he gave all thousand of them a copy of my book, The Genius of Jesus. And here I'm teaching on human communication through my book, The Seven Frequencies of Communication. But when it got to the Q&A, every question was about God. Every question was about faith. Every question was about Jesus. And I just think that when you want, if you're fully alive, people want to know what has happened to you. That's right. You know, when you love life and you love people and you're living life to the fullest, you won't be able to have, you won't have a problem with having conversations about faith. People will come to you and ask you all the time. Erwin, when you were on the streets of East L.A. with the gangbangers, the druggies, the assassins, the mafia, whatever, tell me a quick story of maybe one of the toughest guys or craziest guys you met. Does anything come to mind? Yeah, I'll tell you too, but actually from your area. I used to be in South Dallas by the Cotton Bowl. Oh, okay. Okay. Let me hear it. And that zip code by the Cotton Bowl was the highest murder rate, highest crime rate area in the United States for a season. And every church left that zip code. So I went there. And I started a church in that space called Cornerstone. And I remember two particular situations, but one is a guy came into the building. His face had been blown off by a shotgun that was reconstructed, $300,000 for reconstructive

surgery. And he came in with a gun. He was running because he, him and his family were in a conflict. They were the largest drug dealers in our little area of South Dallas. And he came into the building. We started talking over a period of months. I led him to faith in Jesus. I would walk into projects where only one family would live in an apartment complex, all the entrances protected by soldiers with boozy machine guns, cocaine stacked to ceilings. And one by one led pretty much everyone in that cartel family to faith in Jesus. And I remember when I baptized W.L., half his body was, you know, reconstructed from fire. holes everywhere, knife scars everywhere. And he ended up being the guy for the next 20 years who ran the rehab center for ex-cons. But I had another guy come in on Sunday morning, Ed, and who said voices told him to come in and kill me. And I remember being called into the auditorium on Sunday morning because he was on stage and he had a gun and a knife. And I walked in through the auditorium, walking toward him, commanding him in the name of Jesus to come down. And, you know, I cannot tell you how many times I had to face individuals with weapons and some of them telling me that the voice had told him to come and kill me. And I had a guy named W.L. who was in prison. I mean, another guy, William Westphal, I'll tell you his name. He was in prison and I led his family to faith, his common law wife. So he sent me a note from prison that the day he got out of prison, he was going to kill me. And I think he sent me two or three notes. It's always nice when someone's thinking of you. And when he got out of prison, he was famous for being a white guy who was great with a knife. And so I went to the projects and I found him because I knew he was going to come looking for me to kill me. When I walked into the apartment, there were like 20, 30 people there. They all ran out of the room. It's just me and him. I remember him sitting across from me and he puts the switchblade between me and him. And he says, this is the knife I slit his throat with. He went to prison for slitting his wife's brother's throat. And now he was out and he goes, this is the knife I slit his throat with. They never got it. He laughed. And I looked at William and I said, you know, William,

that knife is going to send you to hell. And he looked at me shocked, you know, talk about being culturally relevant with him. I knew there was only one language we could actually speak in. That's right. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, and, and I, and I, and I looked at him and I said, you think you're free? You're out of prison, but behind every corner of somebody waiting to kill you, you're not free. And then I made a mistake and I said, you think you're tough. And then I realized he is tough. I'm losing my luck a little too far. That's funny, Erwin. So I said, you are tough, Bill. And I, and I, and I said, but, um, but there's a liberty, a freedom that's waiting for you. Now I got to tell you, uh, William Mossfall did not give his life to Jesus, but he looked at me and he said, you know, you and me, we're the same. I said, we are. And he goes, yeah, I'm radical for evil and you're radical for God. And because of that guy, he sent the word out that if someone tried to harm me, he would kill them. And so I had like this protective angel. Yes, you, yes. You know, Erwin, those are great stories, man. I never really tell these stories. These are from the past. I love it. Okay. Speaking of crazy stories and dealing with difficult situation, what's it like working with your family? Oh man, you probably do know. I know. Hey, I know we need to have a session. I'll pay you. You know, are you familiar with the Enneagram? Just to explain. Yes, I am. But just explain it. The Enneagram is like these numbers that tell you who you are. I don't know that much about it, but someone asked us to take it. And so on the Enneagram, I'm like, what's called a five, four, I'm called an iconoclast and I'm sort of like introverted, thoughtful, you know, my son, my daughter, my wife, and their two adopted best friends who are like our family, they're all aces. And those are the challengers. Those are the fighters. And so when I go on vacation with my family, I'm taking the fight with me. I totally, Erwin, you were preaching to the praise team. You need to get away. I go, get away. Oh yeah, Erwin. We need to go on a trip together. Forget the family. But working with them has been the greatest challenge and the greatest joy of my life. I totally agree. I totally agree. Kim and I, I did not marry a docile wife. All right. My wife is still uncertain what the Greek word submission means. I mean, literally yesterday, we're looking for a house. I'm walking to the house. She walked to another house because she decided I had to be wrong. So she went to a stranger's house. And I said, why is it so hard for you to follow? And this is 41 years of marriage, right? That has not.

changed. Our kids are type A personalities. They are both powerful, dynamic, opinionated, strong. Man, I sound, Erwin, you're like just reading my mail. Yeah. So, you know, they, they respect me. They love me, but they're always telling me what to do. They're always telling me how I got it wrong. Erwin, I'm the most critiqued person in the world. I feel, I feel like I have more accountability. I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah. I don't, I don't need a board anymore. I don't need any board. No. So working with them, but you know what? It's what keeps me young. I think that at 67, I honestly, I feel like I'm 27, 37. Yeah. You look great, Erwin. And I, you know, I'm probably like in the best shape of my life virtually. I, you know, I, I love exercising. I love playing. What do you, what do you do to stay in shape? Like, what do you do? Like, what are some things? Well, one, I love the sport called Bedell. It's, um, it's, it's, it's not pickleball and it's not tennis. It's like racquetball opponents. Yep. You like that? And it's super fast. It's super dangerous and a wonderful way. And so I love playing Bedell. I, you know what? I love going to the gym. I love working out with weights. And, um, I, I up to about a year and a half ago, I was still playing a lot of basketball. I love basketball, but at 67, it's a little hard to recover from a torn Achilles or an ACL injury. All right. Okay. Going back to your family, what, how, how would you coach me and others who, which I love work with family members? And what would you also say to CEOs who are going to watch this other entrepreneurs, whatever, how, what would you say about that? What are, what are some thoughts you have? Yeah. I would say don't skip a stage. Like my kids began as volunteers and then they were interns and they were probably interns longer than they should have been injuries. Cause I was harder on them than I was on other people. So don't skip a stage. Okay. Yeah. And then, and both my kids were like the lowest paid people. And, and so I'd say don't skip a stage because if you skip a stage, you're going to have to go back and remake that stage. You, they have to learn how to follow and work with teams. And you know, the only way you really know how to lead teams is to be on a team. That's right. You know? And, and so, and, and with, with both of them, they, we really tried to put a high value on service, you know having nothing beneath you and, and, and, you know, they have very different personalities. So, you know, there are different dynamic differences in that. But what I would say to people is one, don't destroy the line between being a dad and being a boss. That's right. Does that make sense? Like as a dad, it's unconditional acceptance. That's right.

Like as a dad, it's unconditional love. Like I'm going to be proud and celebrate them and bring me joy. And, you know, and even when they mess up, I'm on, I'm on team Mariah and team Aaron forever, you know, and, but on the, on the flip side, you, you, you do have to also be like a boss and, and you, and you, and I think the best way with the kids, cause it's, you know, you know, it's harder to lead your kids. It is. Oh yes. Right. And, and I think the best way to lead your kids is to set the bar by the way you live and the way you work. Because with, I know with my kids, they just instinctively want to match my workload. They want to match my effort. They want to match the energy I bring in. And, and they, and for both of them, they feel like it's almost disrespectful to bring anything less than that. That's brilliant. Okay. Erwin, I'm going to change gears and talk about speaking. Oh, I know you know a little bit about that. As well as you. Yeah. Right. So, so tell me, okay, let me, let me talk to pastors. I'm a, I'm a pastor. How, how do I start the process of building, whether you call it a sermon, a talk, whatever, how, how do I start that from start to finish real quick? Tell me, tell me some things that I can do right now. Sure. Well, I would say that speaking is a lot like writing books. I think I've written like 14, 15 books. And whenever I talk to a writer and I say, who's your book for? And they say, everyone, I know it's a terrible book. And because if a book's for everyone, it's for no one. That's right. I, when I write a book, I'm writing to probably two people that I love and care for deeply. One is the person who believes in Jesus. One's a person who does not. Yes. And, and so who I write to shapes how I write. It's the same way with, with speaking as a, as a communicator, as a preacher. I think a lot of times we're writing for the wrong audience. No question. Yeah, we're preparing our message for the wrong person. And so, for me, I would say to young preachers— You know what, Erwin, let me stop. I don't think people, I don't think a lot of young people in today's world understand or do just what you said, which is brilliant. They don't. I think, oh my gosh, I am, you know, I'm preaching to Christians, I'm deepening them, you know, I'm making disciples. And I understand it. I'm not hating on them.

I'm just saying, expand your mind and do what Erwin does. It's two people. It's the Christ follower and it's the person who is just totally out there. I love that. Yeah, but they both have to be seekers. Exactly. You know, it's a Christian who's a seeker and a non-Christian who's a seeker. Explain that. Well, because not every Christian is still seeking truth. Oh, yes, sir. You're starting to preach again. Not every Christian is seeking growth. That's great. Both are seekers. Yeah. And so to me, like, I want to feed the culture that I want to breed. Yes. Yes. And so if you're, in a sense, only speaking to the defiant, the people who want to grow aren't going to get what they need. That's right. And the people who you're speaking to aren't going to receive it anyway. Yes. You know, because they're defiant. That's right. And so I speak to the believer who's desperate to grow. Yeah, I'm ready to grow, man, no matter where I am. Yeah. And then to the unbeliever who's ready to grow because they are there. They want.

Yes, they are. Yeah. And I think sometimes we assume the person who doesn't believe in Jesus has no interest in personal growth, has no interest in God, has no interest in faith. And it's in fact, I just I did this lunch in New York a month and a half ago. Actually, I didn't do it. A business guy put it together. He invited like 10 business people from around America and said they were going to have dinner with me. And they all the guys flew in just to have dinner. Yeah. And one of them was from Miami. Total business guy. Didn't know anything about him. He said a cross for me. And here he is. You know, this is multimillionaire. And he goes, hey, the reason I flew from Miami is I have so many spiritual questions. I don't know who to ask about how to have a faith. Whoa. And so then I invite him to my mastermind three days of, you know, personal developments of that. And at the end, he goes, I'd still like to go more deep about what faith looks like. And I realized I still hadn't spoken into that at the level he really desires. Yeah. So I said, let's do a zoom call. So we did a zoom call. We nailed down who Jesus was, whether he had a relationship with him, how to follow him, how to begin. He goes, but how do I grow?

So I've got this this multimillionaire sending me texts almost every day of what God's teaching him as he reads the Gospel of John. That's awesome. I just said, I want you to read the Gospel of John and send me a text of what you hear God saying to you for your life. Yes. So insightful. It's astonishing. And and so I think that I think it's better to work from somebody here wants to grow and I'm going to help them. I'm going to add value to their life by helping them find the next step in their spiritual journey. And as a pastor, I would say, you know more than you think, you know, that's right. But you don't necessarily often know what people need to know. It's almost like, you know, if you're if you you look at an engine and you don't know how to fix it because you don't know anything about engines. So if the only thing that's wrong is that the one connected to the spark plug is loose, the easiest solution is still impossible for you. And when you're trying to understand life, you have to realize for most people, life is like looking at an engine when you're not a mechanic. And sometimes you don't have to pull out the whole engine. Sometimes you go, oh, you just got this. The spark plugs not connected. Here's the problem. You're not listening to your wife enough. You're telling her too much rather than listening. Oh, here's the problem. You're going home exhausted. So your kids don't see you enjoy life at all. And so you're getting disconnected from your kids.

Oh, no. Here's the problem. You're not keeping the commitment you make to yourself. And so you need to start not just writing down the promise that you make to other people, the promise that you're making to you. Like sometimes it's just the slightest adjustment and it helps a person explode in their life. And I think preaching in many ways is unlocking biblical wisdom for the person who believes and the person who doesn't believe because the wisdom will move them toward faith. Brilliant. Okay. How about this, Erwin? How about, okay, person one, person two, person one being the Christ follower, person two being the person who doesn't know the Lord yet. Many of those are truly seeking and we want to address that. But you said so beautifully. There's some that say they're seeking, but they're just seeking, seeking. They're not, you know, and then there's the Christian who's like, yeah, I want to grow, but they don't really want to grow. How do you address that? Or do you just kind of say, hey, don't really worry about those people. Just focus on the ones who are really seeking. How would you describe that? Yeah, I think some of it is that your culture decides who stays and who leaves. That's the truth. And if you communicate to a culture that just wants information and academic growth,

that's what you're gonna get. That's right. And if you communicate to people who want to change the world, that's what you're gonna get. That's right. And so you have to realize that your preaching is creating the cultural filter for who leaves and who stays. That's great. I had a journalist who was doing a story on why churches were growing, and she was an atheist. And she said to me, you know, I've been listening to your talks. I've come and experienced Mosaic. She said, your message is incredibly intense. How come it's not more seeker-friendly? Aren't you trying to reach people who don't believe in God? And I said, you are underestimating the hunger people without God have to live life at the highest level. Exactly. Yeah, I said, I believe people have a longing to live a heroic life. So I'm gonna call them to this life so that they realize how much they need God to live it. Okay, Erwin, this is great. Erwin, name your starting five, the top, your starting five,

the best basketball players ever, in your opinion. I don't know why, but I knew you were going there. Oh, you know I'm gonna go there, Erwin. Okay, name, I wanna hear it. Erwin McManus is gonna give us his top five. Who are they? My top three are easy. Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, and Steph Curry. That's okay, I'll take all those. You know, those are my top three, and after that, I'm in pain. But, you know, I'm an Angeleno, and so even though it doesn't give me the best lineup in the world, I'm gonna go with Kobe. Okay. And not because of his talent, but because of the kind of culture he creates to his work ethic. I love it. And then, oh, I'm gonna go with, I can't even pronounce his name, Wim Bami? Yeah, that's it. Wim Bamiani. Yeah, I can't. Even though he's new. That guy's ridiculous, isn't he? Oh, no, you know what? No, I'm gonna give him a few years to develop. I'm gonna take Jokic. Okay.

Yeah, he's gonna be my center. The Joker. The Joker, yeah. That's his nickname. Those are gonna be my five. Erwin, can you believe how good the Joker is, and Luka? These guys, I mean, and the crazy thing is, Erwin, crazy thing is, it looks like they're moving in slow motion. Yeah. And it's almost like there's a space, obviously, for people that do things slower in the NBA. I know that sounds counterintuitive and paradoxical, but I don't know. Yeah, you know what? Luka is easily, for me, one of the greatest players who's ever been on the court. I agree. He's amazing. I agree, yeah. And the reason I chose my five, by the way, is I chose them based on intelligence. Yes. Not just on talent, because once you have teams at that level of talent, it actually comes down to intelligence. Yes, it does. And I'll take the most intelligent team with the same level of talent any day of the week. Okay, here's my last question, Erwin. Looking back on your life,

what's your most favorite fish you've ever caught? Well, that would be, I don't know. How do you like that question, Erwin? I caught a fish once, so I- Erwin! I actually- Erwin! I caught a fish once, and this is how bad it is, Ed. I caught a fish by accident, and when it came to the shore, I thought it had been radioactively mutilated, because it was a flounder. And I'd never seen a flounder in my entire life, and I think it has both eyes on one side. It sure does. They're born with eyes on either side, but because they lie on their stomachs, the eye moves to one side, so they have two eyes on one side. Okay, that's just so bizarre, right? It's bizarre. I still remember being traumatized by catching a flounder and going, what in God's name is this? Where were you when you caught this? I don't remember. I think I was off a beach, like in Florida. Yeah, probably. Yeah, yeah. And I do remember one time catching catfish in Missouri. Oh, that's good. I love the old catfish. Mr. Whistler's fried catfish.

It may kill you, but it's absolutely delicious. It is. And Erwin, I need to take you fishing. We need to do that. I fish a lot. Ah, I know you paint fish. I fish, and yeah, I need to take you fishing down in Florida one day. That'd be awesome. You would love it. Since we're in a conversation about communication, I don't want to not mention my book that came out. No doubt we're going to mention that. Seth, hey, listen, guys. Let me start. Everybody buy this book. And it really breaks down how to hear how others communicate with you and how to understand how others hear you communicate. Man, that's what I do. And it actually goes even deeper. It allows you to discover the shadow frequencies that you have and the inner narrative that fights against your wholeness and health. Erwin, send me one of those books and autograph it. Oh, you got it. I want Erwin Raphael McManus. I love your name. All right. So, Erwin, last thing. You know, I really do a lot of shark fishing. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Very cool. Yeah, you would like it, Erwin. It's right up your alley. I don't like the way shark tastes. I had some last month in Iceland. No, I don't. You'd love it. I release sharks, but it's just a battle. It's the adventure of it. Well, if it's a battle, do you jump in the water and fight with it, or is it? Well, Erwin, I've done all sorts of crazy things that I can't say on the air. But, yeah, no, I don't jump in. I mean, I've been in the water with sharks. I've swam with sharks. I caught a great white a couple of years ago. It weighed about 3,000 pounds on a rod and reel. It drug the boat around the ocean for two hours. Just drug the boat. And finally, it got tired. It got tired. I had a shark scientist on board, and so we put tags on it. And I named it after our daughter who passed away several years ago. Her favorite thing to do was shark fish. So I named the shark Leibeth. So you can track it now around the world as this great white's moving around.

That's amazing. I'm impressed. Erwin, we can do it. If you just give me a call, brother. But, Erwin, we're gonna fly you out here to speak to our church, too, because I know you're not busy, but we can just, Erwin, this is one of my favorite things to tell people. Erwin, one of my favorite things. People go, hey, Ed, man, I know you're busy. I'll go, no, I'm not. I love saying that to people. Anyway, Erwin, listen, man, it is so great talking to you. You're a great guy. We love you and your ministry and your family. I've learned so much talking to you. As I always say, ask the right people the right questions to get the right answer. This guy's the right people. Oh, hey, thank you so much. It's an honor to be with you and have this conversation. Erwin Raphael McManus!