From Karma To Christ (Ed Young Interviews Ken Kalloor)

She said she used to carry a little cross around and a little satchel that she kept on her side with all of her other, like, religious symbols. And so in that moment, I even kind of realized, like, she's not opposed to the idea of Jesus now. It was like Jesus was an add-on. Exactly. I believe in all these other gods, all these other deities. When I look in the Bible, it says primarily two things about evangelism. One is do it. Yes. The other thing is 1 Peter 3, 15, where it says, always be ready to give the reason for the hope that you have, but do so with gentleness and respect. Something that has always stuck with me, you know, and even just convincing me as a skeptic myself before I became a follower of Christ is people are willing to die for things they believe in, but nobody will die for something they know to be a lie. And that's what the disciples would have had to have done. That's right. They were willing to die themselves to share this truth. As we talk about Hinduism today, I thought it would be appropriate to talk to one of our pastors, Pastor Ken Kallur, who is Indian. I'm Indian. Ken, talk to me about Hinduism. Just give me just a kind of a flyby. Well, yeah. In my experience with Hinduism, I've had many conversations with people about it. And what I've learned, just even through conversation, is it's a pluralistic religion. And so they have this idea that there are many gods and that they are mostly about detachment. Detachment from desire. So this is very pluralistic. Pluralistic, yeah.

For example, a conversation I had many years ago, actually, with a young man. He came to our Dallas location, and he was brought up Hindu, and he started coming to our church. And through a series of conversations, I was actually able to share the gospel with him, and he gave his life to Christ, which was amazing. But his parents had something to say about that. His parents were actually concerned about it. And so I sat with them. Actually, they wanted to meet with me, so I got the opportunity to sit down and talk to them about what they believed and what their son now believed and what I believed. And what was fascinating about it to me in that moment, and this ties into pluralism, is that when I started talking about Jesus, the mother actually said, oh, I love Jesus. She said she went to a Christian school growing up, because in India, that's actually something that a lot of even Hindus and even Muslims will send their kids to Christian schools because they're the best schools. So she learned about Jesus, and she told me this, and I'll never forget it. She said she used to carry a little cross around and a little satchel that she kept on her side with all of her other religious symbols. And so in that moment, I even kind of realized like, wow, this is an interesting situation that I found myself in, because she's not opposed to the idea of Jesus now, the version of Jesus that she knew wasn't the version that you and I know. So she, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I will, it was like Jesus was an add-on. Exactly. I believe in all these other gods, all these other deities. Yeah. Yeah. And she, you know, she went on to talk about, you know, yeah, I love Jesus. I just, and what was interesting too about this whole conversation was, as I was beginning to unpack that a little bit, because, you know, there's something, we call it the law

of non-contradiction, right? Two opposing statements can't be both true at the same time. I mean- For example, give me an example of that. For example, if I say, when we die, we face judgment or we die and we're reincarnated. Those both can't be true. Exactly. And so I asked her about that because I think the idea in their minds, in many, and really even outside of Hinduism, but especially in Hinduism, is that it's like many paths lead to the same place. Or in this context, many bridges. Many bridges, exactly. Lead to the same destination. And so I kind of unpacked that a little bit with her and shared with her, well, tell me about that. Because it seems like, you know, these two things are not in correlation or in agreement with each other. And the dad, you know, as he began to share, what was interesting about him was he had some experience where he went to like a Pentecostal church or something. Someone had invited him and a group of people prayed over him. I think they spoke in tongues. And he said he left like confused and not really sure what had happened. And he even shared, you know, for me, I, you know, I just be a good person. Be a good person, and I think everyone will end up okay. And so it was two different, you know, really what I've found in my conversations with anybody is that it does always come down to two major issues is, you know, just be a good person or they all lead to the same place. So it doesn't matter. So that's kind of the Hindu mentality. Yeah.

Yeah, because it's about karma and just, you know, reaching this point where you've done enough good that eventually you're reunited with the Brahman. And you know, my question... And Brahman is an impersonal force. Exactly. It's not... It's the absolute, they call it. But just the opposite is Christianity, because we serve a personal God. We have a personal savior. Exactly. I think that is actually very revolutionary for a Hindu person to hear, because having a God... That's revolutionary. Yes. Because to them, you know, it's an impersonal God, but to know that it's like you were saying with the bridge, you know, religion is about man building a bridge to God. You know, Christianity is about God building a bridge to us. And this whole idea that not only is there a God who desires a relationship with us, He loves us so much that He was willing to die for us. And I think that concept can be so foreign, but in a good way. Ken, what is the goal of someone who practices Hinduism? In other words, what does it mean for them to put the ball through the net? That's a great question. You know, from what I understand, because I'm no expert, but from my experience in conversations is to do enough good to reach this point of you've completely emptied yourself. You're completely detached of desire and the world that you are united with the Brahman. And that is the highest level of enlightenment possible. And also too, I do know a goal, as you said, the way it's pronounced in Hinduism is moksha. Moksha means detachment. And it's reserved for just a few.

Isn't that interesting? Interesting. Like, it's not for everyone. I'm not sure that Hindus really grasp that because it's so cultural, it's so... I think that's so true. And like we said, so many of Hindus in particular don't think deeply enough about what they believe. And that's true of all faiths. That's true. We think about it. We just don't think deeply enough about it. And hopefully this series is going to cause us to do so. Yeah. You know, it's funny. It's like you think about Hinduism is about, you mentioned this, detachment, but Christianity is about attachment to God. It's engagement. Yeah. And it's the complete opposite in a good way. I think it's... Hinduism, I think Buddhism too, it's about eliminating the desire. It's kind of the same. Yeah. But Christianity is about redirecting the desire back towards God. That's right. And... Away from ourselves. Exactly. Back to God. And I think with the son who did give his life to Jesus, that ultimately was what drew

him in. And I think there's a whole bunch of the logical things that we can say, which for me in sharing my faith as I've had the opportunity, the blessing to do that a lot of times, what I've learned because when I first became a believer, I was really into apologetics and learning every answer to every single possible question you can. And what I've learned is it's good to have some of that information, just so you have a framework of how to engage in this conversation. Yeah. It's not exhaustive. Yeah. It doesn't hit all the subtle nuances of Hinduism, Buddhism, Mormonism, Islam, et cetera. But you have to know, as you just said, some of the highlights of it. But it sounds like to me you're going, okay, here's the most important thing. Yeah. The most important thing is obviously you want to have a logical defense for the faith. And I have learned that just like in our culture right now, it's craving authenticity. People want to know that you authentically care about them. And when I look in the Bible, it says primarily two things about evangelism. One is do it. Yes. The second thing is 1 Peter 3.15, where it says, always be ready to give the reason for the hope that you have, but do so with gentleness and respect. And when you approach a conversation... with that mentality, it doesn't become about trying to prove the other person wrong. That's so good, Ken. And that's, I think, you think about politics and sports teams, all the things we argue about. That's the approach, but Christianity, how God wants us to share the faith is yes,

to be ready with the reasons, but also to do so with gentleness and respect. We're trying to, and ultimately, it's the Holy Spirit of God. Yes, it is. But to communicate, there is a God who cares enough about you that he did what he did for you, and he sent me to just share it with you. That's right. I'm not doing this because I get some brownie points. I care about you because I care about your eternity. And as I was saying, too, Ken, just this past Sunday, the greatest thing anyone can ever do for someone is to share the gospel with them, the good news of Jesus Christ, the bridge. Exactly. That's the best news. And we do it because we know people matter to God, and we have this, we should have this desire to do so. And, you know, I would think, too, Ken, something else that's challenging, because we have so many Indian people in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and of course, in our nation, due to technology and just travel, we find ourselves rubbing shoulders with people from so many different faith systems. But the thing that's interesting about Hinduism is it's so cultural. If you're born in India, I mean, you're- Most likely.

You're Hindu. Yeah. Most likely. So that's an interesting aspect of it. It's cultural, yet there is this sort of kind of religious aspect to it. Hinduism, though, is highly, highly complex. It is, but I think you're hitting the nail on the head there, though. Like, again, like when you share, you have these conversations with people about what it is they believe. A lot of the time, it's cultural. It's not necessarily a firmly held belief. It's just the way that they were brought up, and so they have not thought deeply about the things that they believe. So when you're able to engage in a conversation, and even just ask them questions, you know, a lot of times- It's shocking, isn't it, Ken, how little people know. Yeah. One time, I was on a flight from the East Coast to Dallas. I'd been speaking, and I happened to sit by a Hindu lady, and she was on her way for an arranged marriage, and she was really upset, and I began to talk to her, and she didn't know herself that much about Hinduism. I felt like I knew more than she. Yeah, and there's something freeing about- And she felt, you could feel that she felt trapped

in that spin cycle of karma. Well, that's freeing, though. What you just said there is like, again, we, as Christians, I think we hesitate in sharing our faith because we think we're gonna sound dumb, or they're gonna have all this complex knowledge and questions, but many people do not even know what they actually believe. That's right. And in the end, I'll say it again, we're not trying to prove that they're wrong. We're trying to show them that Jesus is the truth. Exactly. And so give the reason for the hope that you have, and we say it a lot here, is tell your story. Talk about what has Jesus done in your life. Ken, one of the big things, when it comes to Hinduism and Christianity, what are the things that you try to hit on when you're talking to a Hindu? I mean, you've kind of touched on it, but just how would you summarize just a few of those things? Yeah, honestly, it's a lot of the same as I approach any conversation, but I would say what I said earlier about having the personal relationship. God desires a relationship with you. And tackling also kind of this idea that people have an inherent desire to do good. We understand that we're supposed to do good, but we have a hard time doing it, right?

But we always judge on this sliding scale. So the conversation, even with karma, it's like, how do you know you've done enough good? And so I'll walk them through, well, you mentioned good or being a good person, right? I think a lot of us, I don't know you very well, but just talking to you, most people are good people, right? But I'll ask them, well, how do we define good? And you just did the first in 10 series. We went through the 10 commandments and that does transcend culture. I mean, it's the foundation of our law in this country. And so you can even just. Go down the list of commandments. That's right. And a lot of times I'll just ask like, well, I might consider myself a good person, but have you ever lied? And oftentimes they'll say, well, yeah, so have I. Have you ever stolen anything? Yes. You know, and I'll make light of it. You know, I stole music on Napster, date myself a little bit. I downloaded some music, I confess. Oh, I don't wanna hear it. I can't lie. I'm a new man now, I've repented. But we've all stolen something,

even a piece of candy when you were a kid. You know, and I'll continue going. And, you know, in the end, it's like, hey, well, we're by our own admission lying, thieving, you know, and the list goes on. We're not good. So what are you going to do? And so in that moment, I think most people, they have an awareness of like, oh, maybe I'm not good enough. Maybe karma is not gonna work out for me because I'm just gonna keep repeating the cycle. Yes. How am I gonna be good enough? And that often is my segue into sharing what Jesus did. You know, and I love the way that you've been just articulating it, because it's a great point of reference to go back to. You say Jesus lived righteously. Yes. He died sacrificially and he rose bodily. Right. He lived righteously, meaning he lived the perfect life. And I share this with him. I say when he was tempted, he was tempted by the devil himself, the Bible says. Greater than any temptation that you and I face on this earth. And yet he didn't sin. He was perfect. He's God in the flesh.

He lived a perfect life and he died willingly, sacrificially for you and for me, because sin deserves punishment. Sin must be dealt with. And I talk about justice because most people, Hindus too, because of karma. Like we believe in justice. Like God would not be a just God if he just said, well, I love Ed so much. I'm just gonna overlook everything he's ever done. You would not like that if you were standing before a judge and someone had committed an offense against you. And he said, oh, well, Ed's a good guy. So we're just gonna clear the slate. God has to deal with that sin. And so I'll share what Jesus did. Jesus was the perfect atonement for our sins. He died on the cross, sacrificially. But guess what? He rose bodily. And because of the resurrection, that validates who he said he was and the claims of the Bible. And something that has always stuck with me, and even just convincing me as a skeptic myself before I became a follower of Christ is, when you read about history and you read about early church history, one indisputable fact is that people are willing to die for things they believe in,

but nobody will die for something they know to be a lie. And that's what the disciples would have had to have done. That's right. They would have had to known that Jesus didn't come back from the grave and that it was an imposter, but they were willing to die themselves to share this truth with others. And in that moment, I'm always feeling the conversation and I'm asking them, well, what do you think about all that? And just as a general conversation in evangelism, I ask them, if you're ready to start a relationship with a God who personally cares for you and wants to have a relationship with you, you can do that right now. And I'll go through admitting, we're not perfect. We just both admitted that a few minutes ago. You know, it's believing that Jesus is the son of God who died on the cross for our sins, a perfect atonement for our sins, and that he rose again and repenting, which is changing your mind, a change of heart followed by a change of direction instead of when you mess up in the future, because we'll mess up. That's right.

But instead of running away from God, you run back to God and you receive his grace and his mercy. And every day we grow closer and closer to becoming more like Christ. You know, I love what you say, Pastor Ed. You say, we're not sinless, but we will sin less as we progress in our faith. And fortunately, I've had a lot of opportunities. Yes, you have. And so, Ken, it's so important. You're telling us to engage him. Specifically, we're talking about the Hindus. Yeah. Because so many of us know so many. Yep. We shouldn't be afraid. We pray for them. God will open up opportunities. And you know, normally, I was reading today, it takes seven exposures to the gospel on average. you know, for someone to step over the line, and I'm just praying, you know, that more and more Hindus will come to fellowship, and we'll be open enough to go, okay, yeah, I want to see and know the differences, and of course the difference is Jesus Christ. That's right. Amen. King Kulor, there's no one like him. Thank you, sir.