Holy Disruption With Heather Schott | Real vs. Fake Worship

You have a room full of America's worship leaders celebrating their freedom to drink alcohol and you have a worship leader in the midst of them, who's literally... What's a catchy sound to make sure we get the most amount of downloads and the most amount of money and fame and follow. Believers now don't actually realize that they want to be entertained instead of engaging in worship. I was going to some other churches and we never want to judge, but the reality is we are created to discern the spiritual environment. Worship leaders can't lead believers back into Holy Covenant with the Lord if their life is full of sin. They are after making money so that their record label can succeed. There's only so long that the Lord will tear you with uncleanness. He's so merciful and He's so gracious, but it's also His mercy that causes the Holy Spirit to withdraw so we can be desperate for Him again. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Holy Disruption. I'm your host, Heather Schott, and I'm so excited about today's episode. I have been wanting to talk about this for a very long time. I just needed the specific people to have this conversation with me. And today I have incredible women, worship leaders, Katherine Mullins, a speaker, revivalist, who's super passionate about seeing lives transformed through encounters with Jesus and discipling, discipling the church. She's also a pastor. And personally, she's just a fiery woman. I love watching her preach and lead worship. She leans in all of the way. And that's why I have her here today with me. And then a spiritual daughter, incredible woman of God, known her since she was 14 years old, Pastor Jasmine Wheeler, who leads Mercy Culture Worship, and also leads Axel, an amazing woman of God, also on fire for Jesus. And look, this is why I wanted to bring these two women on to have this conversation. Is today we're talking about worship culture. And we're going to be having disruptive conversations about, honestly, as a pastor,

some things I'm super concerned about that I have seen in the worship world. And I just want to let everybody know that's listening, I'm not having this conversation to expose, to tear down. I believe there needs to be reformation in this space. That's what Holy Disruption, this podcast, is about, disrupting what is unholy, making the crooked thing straight, because I believe worship is a holy thing. It's unto a holy God. And so today we're having a disruptive conversation around all things worship. And so thank you, Katherine and Jazz, for joining me today. It's an honor. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here. Awesome. I heard you are a mama. I mean, it's been eight years of trying, right? This is a miracle. Eight years, and he's three months. He's somewhere around here. And he just took his first flight to Texas to see you guys. But it was such an answer to prayer. God is so faithful. And yeah, it was just simply miraculous. And I'm just living in the faithfulness of God in this season. Let's go. Mom and ministry together. It's beautiful. And God is anointing His grace, right, Jazz? That's right. You have a one-year-old, and you're pregnant. I'm pregnant, 28 weeks.

So if I'm breathing hard on this podcast, I'm growing a child in me right now. I remember actually one of the first services when we launched Mercy Culture. I just had Porter, our third child. And Landon really felt I was supposed to go up as I was going up to minister to take Porter with me. And then he began to prophesy over the women that this will be a picture of what the women will do from this house is you'll be birthing babies and birthing dreams and vision from the Lord. And it has been, I mean, six years of that, right? Babies and birthing God's vision in the earth. And so, so, so awesome. Well, both of you, like I was sharing, you are these fiery women that I know comes from an intimate place with the Lord. That fire is not a fake fire. It's not a strange fire. It is a fire that comes from a personal relationship with the Lord. It comes from a holy conviction. And I believe the worship community needs to return to that because worship leaders, spiritual leaders can't lead a congregation, people, believers back into holy covenant with the Lord if their life is full of sin. And so there's really three kind of topics I want to bring up in today. And Jaz, were you the one that came up with the phrase presence over performance? Uh, I mean. I'm sure somebody else has said it, but it's like a motto for our worship team, for our community. Yeah. And I remember walking into your office after you had it on the back, you know, behind, it's behind your chair, your desk, it says presence over performance. And I absolutely love it. Obviously, that represents our house and what we're for at Mercy Culture.

But speaking to the worship community, I really believe as a whole, not everybody, but it has it backwards. It's become performance over presence. And we have a bunch of spectators as believers now that think they're attending concerts on Sunday mornings, and they want some epic performance to be entertained and clap at a song and clap at a performance instead of engaging in worship. And many times I've been in lots of different churches, you have people with their hands in their pockets or clapping after a song, like, good job, you did a good job. And I'm like, whoa, like, wait, this is a holy moment. We're engaging with the creator of the heavens and the earth. And I know I'm preaching to the choir right now, both of you as worshipers, but like, let's talk about this. Have you guys, you're in two different worlds also as worshipers, songwriters and everything. Are you convicted? Are you seeing what I'm talking about of this performance over presence? Yeah, I'll just, I'll jump in. So I feel like I need to give a little context for just my personal history with leading worship in this space. But my dream was to work in the arts and entertainment industry to work in corporate America. And the summer between my senior year of high school, freshman year of college, I started getting all these prophetic words about doing worship and doing music. And I remember being in this little prayer house in Pittsburgh, minding my own business in the back dancing before the Lord. And this lady who was leading the prayer house, her and her husband, she came all the way to the back of the room, handed me a mic and she said, you're supposed to be singing. And it was kind of like the nail in the coffin, like one of those last prophetic moments where you're like, why does this keep happening to me? You know? And I went up to the front, I had a mic and she was like saying, and this lady was on the keys and she was screaming, sing, sing.

And I'm like, you guys are crazy. Like I don't sing, you don't even know me, you know? And so I didn't sing during that time. I just kind of freaked out and I left and I'm like, I'm never coming back to this place again. These people are out of their mind. And a few weeks later I ended up back there again for a different conference, a different event. They kind of rent their space out for different ministries to do events and stuff. And so I'm like, cool, like it's not going to be the same people. I'll be fine. They're not going to bother me again, you know? And so I'm there and I just found out I had a hole in my heart and I was on scholarship to play basketball and I needed healing. And so I asked them to pray for me for physical healing of my heart. So they circle around me, they start praying for healing and at the very end of the prayer, this little old lady steps out and she says, young lady, I know we're praying for your heart to be healed, but God says there's a sound in you that needs to be released for your generation. And if you scream right now, the Lord will set you free from all the fear of man, keeping you from stepping into your destiny. And so I'm like, ah, they got me again, like I can't run from this. And so I didn't scream. I didn't do what the lady said to do in that moment. I left. I went to one of my mentors house and I'm weeping at her house that night and I'm like, I don't know what to do. This keeps happening. I don't sing. I don't play the guitar.

And I seen so much in the church that I didn't want to be a part of that. I was just like, I don't really want to do what they're talking about and I don't know how to do it. And she says, Jasmine, the Lord's inviting you in the part of your destiny. You can either say yes, the Lord will show you how to do it. Or you say no, and he's going to use somebody else to do it. But you need to make up your mind. And I was like, okay. So I gave the Lord my yes kind of D-day and a few weeks after that, I'm in my dorm room and the Holy Spirit begins to teach me how to play the guitar in my dorm room. Like my roommate walks in and it's like, you play the guitar now? And I'm like, I don't know what happened, but yeah, you know, and all of a sudden all these doors and opportunities start opening to lead worship places. And so I didn't know chord progressions. I didn't know the names of chords. I didn't know what I was doing. I remember when we invited you to lead a Mercy Culture worship when we launched, you're like, I actually don't know how to communicate with the other band members. I'm like, I don't know how to tell them anything that I'm playing. I taught myself how to play. Wild. Yeah. And so it was at the beginning of that whole process and whatever. So what I would do is every Friday night, this is while I was still in Pittsburgh, I would go to that same house of prayer and just minister to the Lord. And they would do these prayer nights for about two hours every Friday night. And the room was small, kind of smelly, a little bit, usually had about 10 to 15 people in it. And probably half of those people were homeless veterans that would just hang out, fall asleep. You know, they would.

just be in there sleeping, snoring. And so I would go there every Friday night and lead worship. But the interesting thing about it was there wasn't a congregation. There wasn't like all these people to lead. And so I had to figure out real quick what my assignment was, what my purpose was. Am I here to do something for these people, to perform for them, to do something for them, or am I here to minister to God? And if I was there to do something for them, I would have been real disappointed because they were falling asleep. You know, they were all falling asleep. And so I tell our community, our team, that was for me my first opportunity to learn what it meant to minister to the Lord before an audience of one. And I think every worship leader needs some type of season in their life where they are leading worship, but it's really just before the Lord and nobody actually cares what they're doing. You know? Like we had in the first couple of years of launching, and maybe we still get them, and they just don't make it to me, but of mercy culture where people would write in and be like, why aren't the worship leaders facing us?

Why aren't they matching? Why are they on their knees facing the back of the wall and the screen and not us? Like we'd have people like mad and like offended. They're not performing for us. And it was something massive, which goes to show it's so deep what you're talking about because this performance-driven worship culture has trained the body of Christ to be entertained that they don't actually realize that they want to be entertained instead of engaging in worship. Yeah, yeah. And I think scenarios, and I'm sure you have your own story or experience like that. It's a birthing place where I really feel like worship leaders need to experience seasons like that to teach them that the foundation of leading worship should be to minister to the Lord. Come on. Yes, we also need to be spiritual leaders, and we could talk about that at another time in this podcast, but the first thing is to minister to the Lord. Yes, yes. What you're saying is you genuinely and authentically worshiping God as a worship leader is teaching them how to authentically worship God, how to get lost,

how to not care what their neighbor thinks, how to not care if tears are coming down their face, how to not care if the Holy Spirit comes and wrecks them and they're kneeling instead of worrying about what they look like or their makeup. And so it's actually what you're saying is the most beautiful representation of spiritual leadership is that you're willing to go there first as a worship leader so that the rest will follow in authentic worship. Yeah. This house is the house of God Empty it high to the valley, Lord There's nowhere you will go There's nothing, nothing I see literally manuscripts from heaven being brought and I see you writing the new sound for the new day. You're gonna write the sound for the revival You're gonna write the sound for the revival and the reformation I've got a joy that the world cannot take I've got a reason to sing, a reason to sing And it's pretty wild, we have people who come into our community who they were trained at other churches to stand on this X, look at the camera and smile, you better smile and make eye contact with three people or else you're not doing it well, you know and so when they come into our house, they go through auditions and all this I mean, people are weeping, they're like, nobody ever told me I was allowed to just worship God while I'm up here and anyway, so it's just so many beautiful moments like that in our community

where people are being given permission to minister to the Lord to make that their primary focus, first and foremost just minister to the Lord and He will do the heavy lifting in the room if you just start there Catherine, have you felt like a pressure, because culture is powerful it's powerful, so it can creep in in forms and ways when you don't even realize that it is and it can begin to pressure you as a worship leader in ways have you felt that you have, you know, felt that culture of performance creep in and then if you did, how did you fight and push back on that? Yeah, I think that's a great question, I think ultimately it's been interesting when you look at church culture, I mean, let's take it back to even the early 2000s I remember these services where we would feel the presence of God that was expected in our services, you know what I'm saying? I grew up in a culture where it's like, we expected like, what is God going to do? and we don't know, and we were excited we were excited to go to church and be like, we don't know what's going to happen, but he's going to come and it's going to be amazing. And then all of a sudden it was like, I started looking back and I was going to some other churches and we never want to judge that whole thing. We don't want to judge. But the reality is, is that we are created to discern the spiritual environment. And it's like, we've kind of shut people up, but we don't want to be judgmental. We had to come to a point of saying, okay, something is off in this environment. And I remember going to all of these churches and I was taught, I don't want to be judgmental, but I'm like, where is God? And we have that happening right now in culture. Cause it's like, we were created. We remember the deep waters of the presence of God in services. We remember crying. I remember running around with my church friends, feeling the presence of God. And then I come in and it's like, this looks, doesn't look like a charismatic church anymore. And so I finally started asking this question, Lord, where are you in all of this? And I think a lot of it, it comes back to performance. I remember, cause I ended up getting a business degree, but one of the reasons I didn't get a worship degree is because I felt like it was so steeped in performance. And I remember calling my parents and I said, if I take this class and I

go down this path, they are going to change me into something I don't want to be. So I got a business degree instead. But I think, yeah, thank God. But I think what happens in culture, as you know, starts from the top down. And unfortunately, I think part of the issue, and there's issues on both sides, but pastors are saying they want presence, but they don't really mean it. And so, because presence costs more than programs do. Presence is painful. Presence is sometimes messy because we're trying to figure it out. And I think... You don't get to take credit for it. Yeah, you don't get to take credit for it. You have to give room for the presence. You can't force it. You have to tarry sometimes. You have to wait and seek out what's pleasing to Him. And you have to be okay with worship leaders discovering that. And we're not slot machines. There's a journey of intimacy with the Lord that even, it happens in the private areas of our lives, but then it also happens on the public platforms where we've got to have space to pursue Him and to learn and to grow, obviously, within boundaries. But I remember finally having this moment and I was like, I've got to be at least honest with myself. Something is off to me spiritually. And so, I'll just go there. So, there are so many positives. There are some positives that have happened culturally in the worship movement, in the local church, I'll say local church area. Excellence has increased. And that's not a bad thing. They talk about the Tabernacle of David, the two prerequisites for being a part of that was you had to be skilled at your instrument and you had to be skilled though, at hearing the voice of God. And so, we don't have both and right now, overarchingly in culture. Come on. So, the excellence has been good, but at the same time, the excellence has increased. All of a sudden, it's like Holy Spirit has decreased in our services. And we have to be honest about that. And my personal opinion with that, because with the excellence increasing, there has also been a massive amount of sin issues being revealed in the body of Christ right now. And I think you and I were talking about this, but this is what I feel from the Lord. The Holy Spirit is only going to wade into muddy waters for one reason, and that is to purify the waters. And so, if we're honest at our churches right now, we have so much mixture in the worship movement, unholiness, drinking, getting wasted, sex outside of marriage, all of these things that are just polluting the platform. And the Lord, obviously, and some of them maybe started pure, but there's only so long that the Lord will tarry

with uncleanness. And so, the whole point is, yeah, He's so merciful and He's so gracious, but it's also His mercy that causes the Holy Spirit to withdraw so we can be desperate for Him again. And so, this is what I think has happened, is I think the reason we had this beautiful moment, this opportunity to partner with the author of creativity, He's the most creative thing to ever exist to be. We could have partnered our giftings with Him. Instead, we had to increase our creativity as a cover-up for the Holy Spirit not being in our services anymore. And so, now we have, and this one pastor calls it, he calls it useless fires. It's fires that burn bright in our services, but they don't burn away sin. And so, people are coming to, honestly, a poor quality U2 concert, and they're leaving with their chains still intact because they've encountered maybe some mediocre singing, some mediocre guitar playing, but they haven't encountered the real God that breaks chains. And so, that's where it's like, man, we've got to be honest about our platforms and have they become polluted and a good sign of that. is the Holy Spirit is no longer breaking chains and backing us up. You said a key thing, and you said, I've gone into environments, which Jaz and I have said the same thing, and wondered, where is he? I don't feel him. And I'm holding back tears right now, because why as spiritual leaders, as pastors, as worship leaders, is everybody not asking that question? Where is he? If he's not here, I don't want to be here. That's Moses. I'm not going unless the presence of the Lord is going. Feel Holy Spirit. We're talking about you right now, Holy Spirit, but I'm not going. I'm not doing any of this ABC, unless God, you're doing it with me. And we have continued with our services, our events, our conferences, all of our stuff without him. And here's a whole nother thing, is the social media platform, because we're so obsessed with creating followers for ourself, we've lost the vision that it's followers for him. And so if the performance or the sound or this excellence halfway, which is what I really

think, you touch on two pivotal things, excellence in a gift. And then at Mercy Culture, we have excellence as one of our values, but it's excellence in presence. That's it. It has to be. And that's where we've lost it. And you talked about they had to hear the voice of the Lord. And you're not hearing the voice of the Lord if you have the fear of a man, or your performance is under your pastor, or the congregation, or who's buying your album, or downloading your songs. Now we are providing worship for man instead of worship under the Lord. Yeah. Well, and who was the chief musician in the Old Testament was Asaph, and he was over all these things. He was a killer musician. I mean, you had to be amazing at your craft to be in the Tabernacle of David. So imagine being over that and like such a high position, but he wasn't known for his musical ability. He was known for his seeing gift. And that's the whole thing of coming back to the prophetic and what matters to the heart of God, which is presence. It's an intimate relationship with the Lord. And if we can't hear the voice of the one we were made for, what are we doing on platforms anymore? Come on. We have to, worship has to return to the place that it's presence over performance. And if people are upset about it, oh well. If we're pleasing one, it's the returning to the one of pleasing our King. Yeah. The second thing I want to talk about is worship has become a business.

I am so appalled, and I know as leaders, as pastors, as worship leaders, like what an honor if this is our job. And I'm not saying we can't be paid when that's your job, as if you're supposed to work 40, 50, 60 plus hours in doing that, and then go get another job, try to pay your bills. But it's turned into where a song becomes the golden ticket for fame and fortune. And you have people that are fighting over rights. You have people that are fighting over royalties and who gets the credit for a song. And if the song's going to be played on this platform, what band members get to be a part of it so that they get the credit for this song that's going to blow up? I mean, I'm like, where has the holiness, where did it go? Our hearts, and again, of what we just said, is no longer on saying, God, what songs, what lyrics would please you in this hour, would move your heart, would shake the heavens and the earth. Instead, what's a catchy sound to make sure we get the most amount of downloads and the most amount of money and fame and follow? Part of the reason that's happening is because there are people who don't know God, don't love God, don't live for God, who are leading in this space. The Christian industry. Yeah. And so when you look at the CCM space, Christian Contemporary Music, you look at the record labels that are releasing Christian music and worship music, a lot of these people are not Christians. It is a job for them. And so they are after making money so that their record label, whatever they're doing can succeed and it can be at the top and be the best. And so a friend of mine, he signed to a record label a few years ago, a very well-known Christian record label, and we were just talking and processing, and he began to tell me that the record label instructed him to start singing and they needed to record more long songs. And he was kind of confused as to what they were talking about. And they began to explain to him, well, the long songs are the ones that are popular right

now. And they were referring to what some would call spontaneous or prophetic songs, like the songs that are long with a little extra part at the end, you know what I mean? That's a great way to explain it. So they were telling him, those songs are making money right now so we need you to like, we need to produce some of those for you, intentionally make some songs a little longer. Not because God's moving, not because the Lord is speaking, not because he's breathing on something and we're trying to steward it and we have the fear of the Lord on stewarding what the Lord is doing, but we need to make long songs to make more money for our record label. And so that just gives a little picture of, just one of tons of stories that are happening in the industry like that. And so yeah, the truth is there are people making money off of what should be sacred and what we should be carrying the fear of the Lord on and it's convoluted. This is not, this isn't my world. So I'm not, I am a worshiper, okay? My kids love my voice. They love my voice. I was actually at a conference like here a month ago and I fooled one of the worshipers that was there. She's like, you can sing. Can you sing? I heard you had a note. And I was like, oh my gosh, can you record that right now so I can tell my husband in jazz? But no, I can't. I can't sing. Like everybody's leaving the church finally to worship. Okay. So this is not my world.

Yeah. This is not my world. But, and I think the other thing is that it's not my world because, and I don't fully understand all of it because what's so beautiful is Mercy Culture Worship has done it so different. And in a second, I want you to share that because if it encourages one person, because I've never heard of it done ever, but the process and how we came to that point. But I had this thought as I was praying this morning. I wonder how many people like your friend that you're talking about, like they don't know another way. They've only known one way. This is how in 2025 you have to worship lead. This is how you have to do it to become successful at your craft. This is how you have to do it to release songs. And so they have submitted to an unholy or worldly culture type of way to make money off of Christian songs. And maybe this conversation of you guys exposing how displeasing this is, one person gets to hear like, this is wrong. So are there any like other stories that you guys have that just exposes the, I'm just going to say it plain, I don't know how else to say it, but this is how it is to me, gross. It's gross because it's displeasing to the Lord to fight and argue over songs and lyrics or to demand to be on a platform for a certain recording of a song so that you get credit for it. This type of stuff, as a pastor, I'm shocked. I'm shocked over, like it's heartbreaking. And so like, is this stuff that you guys are seeing that like, oh, is this like a one and two type of thing that I've heard these scenarios? But from what I'm understanding is like, this is in massive churches everywhere. I think some of it, I mean, even to stealing songs, I mean, it's just, you know, this is my frustration. This is a very real podcast.

I feel like leaders, and I understand, you know, the younger generation is not, they're not victims, but leaders should be protecting instead of exploiting. And so in this season, if we're honest, everyone, it's so many people are building their own kingdom. They want to make money. I understand all of that, but in doing so they have exploited an entire generation of young people. It's the young people for the most part that are, you know, they're so hungry to do what the Lord has for them. And it's like, maybe it started out pure, but the people around them were wolves in sheep's clothing and they were exploiting their gifting. And so I feel like it has to, again, start from the top down, but then also young people are not victims. And we have to come to a point, I feel like even with equipping the younger generation of saying, you don't have to bow to the system. And we need you to make good godly life decisions so that you don't have to get into this circuit in this sphere. And you can actually say, I'm not going to be a part of that system, you know? And I think even just a practical one, I wanted to lead worship my whole life. You know, I was like, dad, I feel called to lead worship. And obviously we trust the leading of the Lord and I've been able to earn a living leading worship and I'm thankful for that. But he said, Catherine, get a business degree, because if you're going to get a worship degree, you're going to have to go to a church that you probably don't believe culturally in what they're releasing. And you're now going to, you're going to be stuck earning a paycheck. The only way that you can earn a paycheck is by compromising what you believe as a worshiper. And so he said, you've got to use some smart, you know, thinking with this and steward your life well. And he said, go get a business degree, get a job and then trust the Lord to open the

right doors at the right time. And he did that. You know, and I think sometimes we have this thing and we've not trained a younger generation just to say, okay, I understand that you want to do this full time. You know, we all want to do that full time. So you, you learn to be intimate with the Lord, steward that behind the scenes, take every godly opportunity, but also make sure that you're making a living, a living and able to, to live your life the way that you're called to. So you're not dependent on these systems that are going to exploit you. Right. Because it is, it's exploitation. That's just what it is. And they're saying they're good business people and it's like a trap. So it's like once they begin to compromise in it, they're selling a part of themselves, you know, because there, there's got to be a conviction that many of them have felt at certain points that could not listen to it because it was the way. And they kept silencing that conviction. And the next thing you know, they've become a part of this system fully in, which is so stuck. Yeah. into making a living is all connected to that system that you've just bowed to. And so how else are you going to? I have a story with that too. It's not quite the music industry, but it's with travel ministry. So when I was first introduced to travel and travel ministry, I'd come from a small local church. We believe in holiness, purity. We didn't drink all those things. And suddenly I'm on the scene with these ministry leaders and they're drinking, they're cussing behind the scenes.

They're seeing inappropriate movies, all these different things. And I was just floored. I was just this, and I thought, okay, well, maybe it's just my church because it was like everywhere I looked, all of these people were living unholy. I mean, DUIs, I mean, just stuff that it was just unheard of to me. And and I just remember thinking, well, maybe I need to just be the light, you know, because I was looking everywhere and I was just like, where are the holy people, you know? And so I didn't compromise or anything like that. And by God's grace, I ran into a still ministry friend to this day, and he said, Catherine, there are people that love Jesus out there. And he said, you want to line yourself up with people who weep at the things that grieve the heart of God. Come on. And so I was looking at my future and I had had this kind of quick launch into ministry and I had probably about six months of trips booked out, which that was huge at age 21, you know? And I was like, this is, you know, this is I'm able to earn a living at this point. And I, after that conversation, I felt like the Lord told me to give it all up. And so I remember I was in Australia, I was looking out at the water and I was thinking that means I'm going to have to cancel all my trips because all of these people are acting like this. And so I remember telling my friend, well, it's been a fun run. Can you go ahead and just cancel all the trips? And I thought, well, I'm done. And yeah, I'm 21 at this time. So I was like, I can move in with my parents if I need to, you know? I was still, I was finishing my business degree, but then the very next week I get home and the first ministry trip that I canceled, a place called The Ramp had called and I didn't know who they were. I don't even know how they got my phone number.

And they said, you know, we're interested in you coming out to lead worship. But the thing that's so amazing is we've got to get courage again to follow the Lord and trust the leading of the Lord and trust that he's really going to take care of us. And so that was a huge turning point in my life that I refuse to compromise and I have to trust that the Lord is going to honor that. And so we've got to get some grit into the worship movement again, that we care more about the heart of God and we care more about his standard of holiness. And we believe that he's big enough to take care of us. And so we, again, learn to lean into the voice of the Holy Spirit. And as we follow that, those doors are going to open, but it's going to be the doors that he wants, not the world's doors. Come on, you just brought up the third thing that I wanted to talk about, and I'm so concerned about this in the worship community. I come out of a wild past of alcoholism, alcohol addiction, drug addiction, sexual immorality, like pretty much every sin that there is to sin, I was a part of. And that is so much of our culture, what our culture promotes today. Addiction is skyrocketing. We're not just talking about the younger generation, we're talking about generations. Because drugs, alcohol, it is so prevalent with oppression, depression. This is what we turn to. This is what people in our congregations are struggling with in a fight for their life. And our worship communities, pastors too, but today we're talking about worship cultures, pastors too, both, are inviting alcohol into their songwriting parties. What? Let's, let's go get drunk, like I'm, I'm mind blown, okay? This girl out of the world coming into church with an expectation of like, y'all have Jesus, the one that gave his all on the cross to die for you, to redeem you, to make you new. That's what it is. He did for me, and you guys are all choosing bondage? Yeah.

What? And then that's what you're putting on display with your influence that God has given you? Or did you purchase it? Because now you can purchase influence, that's a problem, is you can get it in so many other forms than God giving it to you, but either way, if you have it, you better steward it with the fear of the Lord, and we are not. And so not only is there this massive sin issue with alcoholism, which is just called—oh, that's just religion. You're just—no. I'm sorry. That is not religion to say alcoholism is not okay. Drinking in your songwriting is not okay. Putting it on display for generations that are stuck in addiction is not okay, and that is not religion. This is called freedom that we're fighting for. But I am shocked that this is okay with senior leaders. I'm shocked that this is what so many worship leaders think is okay. Like, why? Why? Why is alcohol so prevalent in the worship community? I don't understand. Do you guys understand? Help me understand. I don't understand either. It's concerning. It's grieving. And I think—it makes me think—there's a quote we say a lot around here at Mercy Culture, and it's, what leaders do in moderation, everyone else will do in excess. And I do think there is an issue—you kind of alluded to it—but I do think there's something to be said about pastors leading in the drinking culture, because if you have

churches being led by pastors who are willing to drink alcohol and have that as a lifestyle and do it publicly and in an open, then you can't expect worship leaders in a worship team to live in holiness and purity and righteousness if the leaders of the church, the pastors of the body of Christ, aren't fighting for that. That'd be silly to expect. I'm so concerned for shepherds one day when they have to go before the shepherd. And I think the issue is, you know, there's nowhere in the Bible that it flat out just says don't drink alcohol, right? It says don't get drunk. And so a lot of people will use that as an argument, as a pass to drink. The only issue with that that I see is all throughout the Word of God, there are several warnings over and over and over again that are basically letting us know in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, that if you drink alcohol, you're less likely to be sharp in the spirit. You're less likely to hear God clearly. Like it's just everywhere, especially if you look at the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, it's all over the place. They're drinking alcohol. It's their lifestyle. And then God comes and corrects them and is correcting the prophets and saying, hey, these cities, these people, the people of God are not thriving because the shepherds are partaking in alcohol. Like it's biblical. He paints it out for us, Eli's sons. And so it's all over the Word of God. And so if you want to use the argument that God never says that I can't drink, that's great. But go look at the rest of the Word of God and look for the actual context about what God is saying about alcohol all throughout the Word. And so anyway, so that gets me like fired up, but we're on the right podcast for this,

I guess. Yeah. A scenario that happened that I was a part of, there was a songwriting event that I went to with some of the most well-known worship leaders in the nation. I mean, most of the songs that we were singing during that time, the people in that room wrote whatever songs the body of Christ were singing. And I was there and we all went out to dinner at the end of one of our songwriting days. And at the end of the night, I looked around the table and there's alcohol all over the place, just all over the place. I watched one of the leaders of this movement buy a glass of alcohol for one of the worship leaders sitting across from me for her birthday. And they celebrated it and were like, oh, I can't believe you got me this. So like literally just all over the place, just alcohol. On our way out, there are people in the restaurant that recognize a lot of the people in the room that are asking for autographs and pictures with people that they recognize in the room. And we're on our way to the cars and one of these worship leaders is stumbling, starts to get into somebody else's car because she's so drunk. She doesn't know which car is her car. So that was just like night one. We get to night two and we're all at this, we're doing like a Topgolf game type of thing or whatever, just having a good time together. And I start seeing worship leaders start ordering drinks, drinking, playing Topgolf, just ordering drinks. And one of the worship leaders is sitting next to me and he said, is, uh, Hey, you don't, you don't drink. I said, no. He says, why? I was like, I don't, I don't have a reason to drink. Just, you know, just the simple answer. I don't have a reason to drink, you know, not a good reason. There's lots of bad things, but there's really no good reason. Yeah. So I said, I don't have a reason. And I said, uh, I said, why, why do you ask? He says, well, I looked around the table last night. You're one of the only people at the table that

didn't have alcohol in front of him. I said, yeah, I, yeah, I don't drink. I said, do you drink? And he pulls out his phone and he had an app on his phone that was like one of those tickers. And it was counting the seconds, the minutes, the hours, the days, um, since the last drink that he'd had. And, um, he, he was celebrating how long it had been since he had been sober. And I said, so why did you, how, why'd you stop drinking? Like, what's your story? And he says, well, I just started to realize nothing ever good happened in my family when I drank. And he started talking about the brokenness that came into his family when he used to drink and that he just knew he had to stop drinking if he was going to be a good husband and a good father. And it, it just, oh my gosh, like it just lit a fire in me. Uh, I can't, I shared the story so many times with our worship community, because here you have a room full of America's worship leaders, just having a good time drinking, celebrating their freedom to drink alcohol. And you have a worship leader in the midst of them. Who's literally fighting for freedom, fighting to stay free, fighting to stay sober. And you want to flaunt your permission so much that you're willing to make a brother fall. Like it's just, it's insanity. And so I, you know, we, we talk about this all the time, but I've never heard anybody. I've never heard one time. Anybody come to me and tell me my life is so much better since I started drinking. Everything is just, man, I hear God so much better. I'm a better dad, better mom. Like life's awesome. Every since I started drinking, I've never heard anybody celebrate that. I've never heard that testimony, but I've counseled, pastored, led, walked with so many people whose lives, families, callings, destinies have been torn apart as they engage with alcohol. And so here's this guy again, who's fighting for that. And the worship leaders of America just having a good time. Also opens the door to other sin and other compromise. That's just how it works. That's how Satan works. It's like, let me, let me get you to open the door to this, but that's not where you're going to be at. You're not having one glass of wine five years from now. That's not where you're going to be. Satan

knows that and you're acting like a fool. Like you have control over yourself. And here's the other thing is they want to go flash scripture around that. It says that it's a sin. Um, only if you get drunk, like they're not getting drunk. Yeah. Okay. Where's that line? Where's that line or what you've been drinking so much for so long now your tolerance is higher. So you get a flaunt that you can have for without getting drunk in front of the guy who's counting to be free. And so like when you're talking about that guy, I was that woman jazz. So like I'm three months off of alcohol and drugs. When I meet my husband, Landon, I am three months off of overdosing on drugs left in an abandoned apartment for three days for dead, like trash. When I meet Landon, a pastor's kid, youth pastor that invites me to church that I ended up marrying you guys. I'm telling you right now without a shadow of a doubt, if I would have married a drinking pastor, that alcohol was okay, you know, on our anniversaries and parties and I would not be the woman that I am today. Yeah. If he did not draw that line in the sand, I was fresh out of God delivering me by the grace of God that I'm alive today for a man to come in and disciple me, to show me what purity looks like, to show me what righteousness, what's right in God's eyes. And this is what is heart wrenching and heartbreaking is either you have spiritual leaders, worship leaders and pastors that are either leading others astray, which we're held accountable for as spiritual leaders. We're going to be held for at a higher level by the Lord. How many did we lead to him? And how many did we lead astray? You guys, the people that I was having conversations with 10, 15 years ago, when the grace message and every grace book was out everywhere being preached everywhere. And it was tagged with the drinking culture that was birthed all with the grace. Landon and I were having these conversations. We were the Pharisees. Okay. We are the Pharisees to everybody. We're not going to have them come to our conferences anymore because they're not cool. And they're saying that we shouldn't be drinking and we want to drink everything that we want to drink.

You know, those people we were having conversations with, either spiritual sons of the house or pastors, almost all of them have fallen. Almost all of them have fallen into drugs, alcoholism, affairs, their life has fallen apart. They're either not in ministry anymore or trying to build this house of cards that's fallen and trying to rebuild it into something. And all of those people we had the conversations with, here's the problem, is alcohol. And I remember, I remember fighting, we were living in the state of Arizona at the time when they were trying to legalize marijuana. And even people in the church saying, you guys are religious, you know, you have no idea if people are fighting cancer, you don't have any compassion. No, no, no, no. I may be some 20 some year old, whatever that you don't want to listen to right now. But what you don't understand is I'm not a church kid. I'm from the streets and I know exactly what marijuana and what alcohol is opening the door to and it's sin and more sin and more addiction. And that's what we've seen. We've seen in worship culture where it's not just stopping with a couple glasses of alcohol. Now we have blatant sin. We have sexual sin. We have homosexuality. We have all of this that's happening. And then they're victims too. And I know that we talked about senior pastors not standing up and leading correctly. And I think that honestly, that's a whole nother conversation. But I think we also have to speak to this worship culture, whether they're the leaders or those that are following in it, wake up, wake up. This isn't a game. God is going to hold us accountable for those for honestly, how we are stewarding our lives, stewarding his platforms and stewarding his people.

I grew up as a pastor's kid and I grew up not knowing Egypt. I've had maybe just a taste wine and that's it. I was curious about the taste. But the thing that has been exactly what you said is so disheartening to me or sad is we tell the world that we're a hospital where you can come and find healing. And then we give them the very thing that has made them sick. And so coming from a pastor's kid who had a peaceful life, and I feel like knows the way to Jesus and how to steward his presence, then you're going to tell me that we're going to have an environment where recovering alcoholics have to come in with their issues. And if we invite them to our house, the first thing that they're going to have to do is decline a drink. The first thing that they're going to have to, we're going to be so unloving. And so I think the biggest thing is, is what is this book all about? This man Jesus came and died on a cross because he loved us. The book's about love. And so are we loving ourselves and our fleshly desires? Are we loving the broken people around us? And that's the story of Jesus is he stopped for the one. And so if we're not living our lives in a way where broken people can come and find healing, I mean, some people are having to stay away from the church now. One of the reasons is because of the issues within the church and how people are living. I remember my dad always saying this, and I wholeheartedly agree. He would say, the law of love trumps your law of freedom every single time. And I remember, I remember the same thing, though. People would say, you know, no offense, Catherine, I'm just more free than you because we'd be talking about alcohol. And I mean, I have story after story. I remember years ago, and it's not even some of these people, maybe they drink responsibly, but I remember they had this one girl over, she looked normal. She didn't look like she had any issues.

She was a recovering alcoholic. They gave her, you know, they offered her some alcohol. She relapsed and had to sleep it off that night at their house. There's story after story about that. Another one, some pastors were drinking. And this, I just heard this recently. And the person said, you know, I thought I was, I could do it because my spiritual leaders were doing it. And she said, all of a sudden, we're in another country. And my husband and I get wasted and we start watching inappropriate things on the TV. And she said, I've never, she said, I've never touched alcohol ever since. But she said, I was with leaders. And I thought, if they can do it, I can do it. And we do have to wake up. And it's, it's the reality that the law of love, do we love these people like Christ loves these people? You know, the law of love will trump your law of freedom every single time. You might be able to have that one drink, but what is going on in our culture right now? For what? Yes. So, so are our pressures and weights real? Run to him. That's it. It's a counterfeit. It's a counterfeit. Is there oppression? Run to him. But it's these feelings that we have this, I feel depressed, so I'm going to have a drink. I'm so stressed.

I'm going to have a drink. I don't have fun, I'm working too hard, so I need to let my hair down so I have a drink. No, no, no, no, all of that is found in Jesus. But here's the problem, is in worship community, if we've so detached ourself from pleasing him in the first place, and it's all about performance, and we're not pleasing him even in our song writings, and all of the sudden, why am I seeking to please him with my life? I can do whatever I want in my private, I'm giving everything else to church, so I'm going to have this part of my life, and I'm going to do what I want because we've just stopped pleasing him in every single form. So I want to ask people that question, why? Why pick up the alcohol? Why? You don't know what that end all is, if it's destroying your marriage, if it's destroying your children, that you're a teenager, that they see it and it destroys their life. Is it worth it? And I'm telling you, I can testify to people, it's not worth it. It's not worth it what it leads to, what it opens the door to. And you know what's wild to me?

I'm sitting in November in a meeting in Georgia with President Trump, and he begins to testify to an entire room of pastors, you guys, that he's never touched alcohol or drugs in his life, and it's how he raised his kids because he wanted to have a sound mind to raise his children, to launch businesses, and to lead a nation. And he said, I'm not putting anything in my body that clouds my mind and my judgment and the decisions that I have to make. Oh my gosh, if a man that does not probably have the most intimate personal relationship with Jesus understands the consequences of alcohol, how in the world has the church become so confused? And I believe it is a lie from the pedal, which I have to just say this, it was probably one of the greatest sermons to a room of pastors I've ever heard in my entire life. I was like, preach Trump to this room because I knew probably half of that room secretly has issues that he had no idea of his testimony of not touching alcohol. But I believe one of the greatest lies around it is that you are free or non-religious if you drink alcohol. As if that's how we war against spiritual forces in the world is by drinking something. I've also heard people say it's something that makes them more relevant to the world.

You can minister, you can understand people, you can sit down with somebody, just have a glass of beer with them and you can just connect with them on their level. But it's like, you can't have authority over something that you're entertaining. And so what happens the moment that the person that you're trying to be relevant with and to connect with, they have their demons and their battles with alcoholism and they're addicted and da-da-da-da. How do you cast that out? How do you help them walk into freedom if you're entertained by yourself? No, it's not a relevance issue. No way, let me just tell you from an 18-year-old girl back in the day, I remember seeing some of those pastors drinking. I remember at 18 years old being set free thinking what type of fakes and frauds? I literally thought, what type of fakes and frauds are these people? That's what an 18-year-old teenager that came out of a life of alcohol and drug abuse thought of pastors and spiritual leaders drinking that thought it was cool. I thought, who are, no, no, no, no. I want nothing to do or to follow these individuals. And so I think it's so important that we're exposing this stuff

because if people are that spiritually immature to believe that it makes them relevant or that it opens us up for the world to want Jesus or to want the church, no, no, no, no, no. They have that. They have it. They have as much as they want. If they come to church, they want something real and tangible they've never had before. They wanna feel the presence of the Lord, the very thing our sin is chasing out. That's the thing that they're craving for. They're craving a real move of God that transforms them, that delivers them, not offering something they already have. We have something the world doesn't have. And the worship community has to begin to offer people from the world coming in something that they don't have. And it's the presence. We have to return to the presence. Yeah, and I'll just say this. One of the things that's a little scary to me right now, I don't know if scary, concerning maybe is a better word, is the worship. community, worship music right now is becoming more popular, like we're gaining a lot of influence in the world. I think we first started seeing it probably early 2000s, Hillsong just kind of was blowing up and, you know, they're outside of just the four walls of the church, TV, all these

things happening. And then we saw with Mav City Music, they got really popular and got all this notoriety outside of church world, like it's happening right now with Brandon Lake and the jelly roll situation. Like it's, there's, there is a, there is something really beautiful. It could be, it can be beautiful. That is happening where people are hearing worship, people are getting exposed to worship music and they should be being exposed to the presence of God. If we are doing what we should do, you know, that's what should be happening. And so, but I'm only saying that to say, if we have the mindset that we need to do all of these things to be relevant as worship leaders, and then these opportunities are opening up for God, where God's actually trusting us to be in these rooms, in American Idol and all these crazy festivals and all this stuff that's opening up, but we're living lives of compromise, I would just venture to say it, what it, what it, what it feels like to me is we forfeit the trust of the Lord. Like, I want to be trustworthy to God. I want to be, I want God to be able to trust me in those spaces. And when we live lives of compromise in the midst of gaining influence in the world, we're not being trustworthy. Like we've craved influence over authority, that's why we're not walking in spiritual authority in the church anymore, because we've craved influence so bad, we've actually given up authority. And what should be happening when we're in those spaces, deliverance should be happening. Salvation should be, people should be getting set free. And I'm not saying that none of that is happening in any of these situations. I've heard some beautiful testimonies recently, Brandon Lake, Jelly Roll, some crazy stuff. It's beautiful. So God is moving, but I'm just saying, we have to stay set apart with what God is trusting us with. I want to be trustworthy before the Lord.

Be the light and darkness, don't become it, you know, don't become the darkness. How is mercy culture worship different? How did you hear from the Lord and begin to steward something that you've never seen done before in the worship community? Yeah. I mean, one of my favorite things that I've learned from you, from Pastor Landon, and just in the journey that we've been on with mercy culture is it's Ephesians 5, 10, find out what pleases the Lord. It's become a life scripture for me. And I don't have any tattoos, but if I was going to get something tattooed on my forehead, that would be it. You know, like I, that's my life scripture and our community has kept that in front of us. We want to find out what's pleasing to God and then do that thing. And one of the things that the Lord has led us to do that is, it's very unique, but we spent the last four years asking the Lord what he wanted us to do regarding royalties and splits, song splits, all of that kind of stuff. And we weren't, we weren't going to ask the Lord about it originally, if I'm honest, it was just kind of like, this is what you do. Everybody does this. So you just, you do this and you don't take advantage of people and everybody gets some, some of the pie, you know, you just, there's like a way that everybody just does it. And one day I feel like the Lord spoke to me and was like, uh, you never asked me. And I was like, okay, Lord, what do you have to say about this? What would please you? And a group of us, our core team, a core team of leaders for the worship community got together and we began to ask the Lord what would please him in this area. And he, the first time he spoke to us, we all, it freaked us all out. We were all like, uh, excuse me, what? And we were all here in the same thing and we're like, this makes zero sense.

And so we like left it, came back to like a few months later, so we came back a few months later. And a long story short, it's been this crazy journey of going before the Lord several times coming before you, Pastor Landon, the leadership of this house. And essentially what the Lord invited us into as a community was that nobody on our team gets paid for any of the songs. There's like none of us touch any of the songs that get released from Mercy Culture. And so it's not like I, I'm an artist, just personally, I make music outside of Mercy Culture worship and I get paid for my songs. And so we're not like, nobody should be getting paid for music. Like that's not what's happening. But for Mercy Culture worship, for what God has given us, what he's asking us to steward as an artist, we felt like the Lord was saying, if you're going to be a part of Mercy Culture worship, the standard is. you don't take anything. You don't put your hands on God's songs. And we introduced it to our team, told our team in this past year, and we have just under 200 people who are a part of our community at this moment. And all but two people said yes to what the Lord wanted to do in that. And we're ecstatic about it. Like people weeping. I've never heard anything like this. What an honor to get to be a part of something like this. Just radical lovers of Jesus who are just, I don't want to put my hands on. And one of the reasons, and we understand this is radical. I've never heard of another community doing something like this before. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I've just never heard it. And one of the reasons that we felt like the Lord instructed us to do it this way was to protect the purity of what God is doing. And he's spoken to us a ton about it and continue to show us the fruit of it on the other side of the decision. Because what can happen is, and you kind of alluded to it earlier, but what can happen is people start arguing about who's going to be on this set and who's going to be on the stage for this song. Well, because Pastor Danny's on the set and Pastor Danny comes up with fire songs. And so I want to be on the set with Pastor Danny because maybe a fire song will come out and I get a cut of that song and I'll be one of the writers on the song. Stuff like that happens. Or the other type of stuff that goes on is, well, we notice we made a ton of money off of this song and this song was only

three minutes long as opposed to our 20 minute song. So we should do more three minute songs and not obey God and the songs that he's given us and asking us to release, but do more songs like this so we get more notoriety and more money. And so then you start to compromise actually just pleasing God in worship because you got to release the songs that'll make you more money. And so our journey has been, part of the fear in it, I'll just be honest, my fear before we introduce this to our team is what if people just get so afraid and start getting stingy creatively and they won't release songs because they want to sing their own song and make money off it on their own album? What if people just stop bringing their songs before the Lord? And I had to give that to the Lord and what has happened is it feels like the Lord is trusting us with more of his songs. It feels like, me and Pastor Dani were talking about this a couple days ago, there's been this fresh outpouring of new songs that are just straight from the throne room where we just get together in rehearsal and just new songs are birthed. Almost the entire Revival and Reformation album was birthed in rehearsals after we gave that to the Lord. And people spend years writing songs, crafting songs, and our songs are unique compared to some of those songs, but people spend years trying to write these songs and the Lord is trusting us with melodies. And one of our prayers has been, God, give us the songs that no one else will sing. The songs that you've always wanted to pour into the earth, would you trust us with those songs? And I feel like because we've taken our hands off of his songs and we're not trying to take credit, we're not trying to take glory, nobody cares about whose name is on the list to write the song. Nobody's getting, you know what I mean? It feels like he can just trust us with his songs. And so probably one of the greatest moments as a team that we've been able to steward together, and there's plenty of other things that we've done to steward what God is doing here by his wisdom that he's taught us, that he's led us into, but that's probably been one of the most impactful things that we've walked into. It's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. And I'm like the pastor and every Sunday just wrecked, just wrecked in the presence of God. Oh, Tether, of course, because it's, you know, mercy, culture, worship. No, no, no, no. I know the difference between a good song or being proud, which I can weep over being proud of spiritual sons and daughters. And when the glory of God fills the room and it's wild, what's happening at mercy culture that every Sunday, it doesn't matter what campus you're at, it doesn't matter who's leading. His glory is filling the room. There's screams of deliverance of people just

in worship. There's people being filled with the gifts of the spirit, breaking out and speaking in tongues for the first time. Nobody's laying hands on them. They're just worshiping because the glory of God marriages that are being restored. Lady, the python literally came out of her in worship. She's like, my stomach started trembling, came out deliverance, you know, through worship. But this is like when we return to what pleases you, Lord, and he enters the room, everything else that's not him. It has to go. It has to go. Catherine. Oh, like Jaz just spoke so beautifully of bringing purity back to this system that I believe has needed a reformation that I hope worship teams like across the nation would just begin to, in radical faith, step up and just wreck the old system. Can I just add one thing? And I just want to say this because it doesn't mean the way that we're doing it is the only way to do it. Yeah. And I think the point that is important here is find out what pleases the Lord. If you as a worship community, if you are just running and doing what the system tells you you should be doing and what the guy from BMI and ASCAP and the record label told you to do, then it might not be the thing that's pleasing to God. If you do what we do, it might not be what's pleasing to God for your worship community. The goal is you find out what's pleasing to the Lord for you. And so every worship team should be asking, God, what would please you for how we do royalties and splits on our team? And then you hear God and obey what he's saying. It's not that our way is the only way to do it. It's just that we stopped to ask God what pleased them and then did that. Which is probably important for anybody to do that's been listening in anything that we've talked about. Like, man, there's disunity or there's fights or there's arguing over who's getting paid Any of the things that we've talked about today, if you're like, man, that's a part of our worship culture, pause, pause, allow the Lord to wreck it all and start over. And like what you said, just to come back to a pure place and trust the Lord that if

it's financial, if it's influence, if it's whatever that needs to be wrecked and destroyed for you to get back into right standing with the Lord, so be it. And so what does that look like, Catherine, for the heart of worshipers, for worship leaders and band to get back into this place of pure worship again? What would be your encouragement? So funny. I mean, I was literally about to say almost verbatim what you said, just the whole point of you stopping when the Lord said, Hey, did you ask me about that? I think, I mean, that's the whole reality of where we're living right now in Christianity is we need a generation to pause and ask the Lord again what he wants. And it really goes, it goes back to obedience that we're his friends if we obey him. And that's, I mean, that's the biblical teaching. And so it's just pausing and we've got to, I think we've got to get back to intimacy, to knowing his voice. What is his voice versus what is the world's voice? What is our own opinion? And we've got to get back to that place of valuing his voice enough, valuing his ways enough, valuing intimacy enough that we say, okay, God, it's not, it's not about mimicking somebody else, although that's great that it worked for them. It's saying you and I have a relationship Lord, and I'm interested in what you have to say about my life. And if you tell me to go, I'm going to go. If you tell me to pause, I'm going to pause. If you tell me to turn left, I'm going to turn left. And it's beautiful. I could start crying because he is, there are pockets of the worship movement that he is awakening. Yes. So sweet. There are pockets of people who have held on, who have said, man, something's not right

in my own heart. And they are repenting. And they're saying, Lord, teach me again your ways. Yes. But I may know you won't find your way there. And that's what I just, I want to commend mercy culture. I think I told you this over the phone, but I'm not like a conference goer. It's so funny. I do that a lot, but I'm a homebody. And I told my husband last year, I was listening to somebody who sent me some of your music and I was listening to it. And I said, David, I feel like these people are my people. And I said, I've never like just flown out to a conference before. Like I don't, I maybe have done that one time in years and I was like, I think I want to do that. And then I got pregnant and I couldn't. So I was like, I can't, I'm pregnant, I'm too tired. But then anyways, I want to commend you guys for pausing and saying and setting a standard for what it looks like for a group of musicians and singers, you know, to say, Lord, I care more about what is on your heart and what moves you than what makes money. And I think if we have more people rising up like that, I think the church is going to be okay. And as much again, we see all this darkness in the worship movement. What I love, it's so hard, exposure is hard, but it means that the Holy Spirit is setting the church up with an invitation for repentance and to draw back to him. And so we see it all throughout the Bible that when he's, when he's calling out sin, it's really a merciful call to repentance. Yes, it is. So repentance is beautiful. Yes, it's life changing.

It's life changing. It brings us back, like you said, into intimacy with him. Jaz, I also want to commend you because in another area, I've watched you. lead this worship community with so many struggles, and you haven't chosen their gift over their health and their freedom. And we've had so many conversations, and you have not in a mean, cruel way, but in a loving, disciplined way that I'm going to put your health, I'm going to put your walk with God before your gift, that you've had people step down when they're in intense struggles, saying, one, this is not a standard for what we set as a spiritual leader from this platform. You'll never be perfect, but you're in the midst of a struggle right now, and as a community, we're going to surround you, and you're going to get free from this, and so we don't need to restore you back to ministry, we're going to restore you to the Lord. And if that time ever comes again, then that door is open. It's not forever closed, but you and your health, your freedom is more important than prostituting a gift that's on your life, and you have put people first before a ministry, and I'm so proud of you. We have an entire community, half of them, I don't even know if it's half, it seems like a lot, has struggled in homosexuality, that have been set free. They're free, they're testifying, they're free, you know, pornography, all different types of sexual sin, addiction, they're free, because their health and their relationship with God was put prior to a gift, and so I want to honor you, because there's so many ways that you have brought reformation to a worship culture, that you are both right. So many senior leaders have not been present and prioritized people over ministry, and I just want to say to senior leaders right now, you need to get engaged. You need to get engaged and care more about your people, staff, and it's not, I'm going to mess up what I just said, it's not your people, they're God's people. You need to care more about God's people, their health, their marriages, their personal life, and what they can do for you, how they can perform for you on a platform, and if you are putting people on a platform on Sunday morning to make your church look and sound better while they're a hot mess and struggling in sin and addiction, you need freedom from

the Lord, senior pastor. But I hope that this is a wake-up call for leaders and for pastors, the pause that we are talking about for worship leaders is the pause that pastors need to take and to engage in real conversation with real people and souls that are hurting and are stuck in sin, and they want freedom. And as long as they're being used as a gift, they will continue to put on a face of religion to perform for you all of the while as their sin is covered, it begins to overtake them and get worse and worse and worse. Can I tell a story? Yeah, absolutely. I know we're super over, I'm just committed to being over at this point. But there's a young man in our community who, when he first came into our community, I just noticed, I started noticing things. So I got delivered out of homosexuality as part of my testimony. And so when you've been delivered out of something, you have an eye for it, you have an eye for it, you know? And so I just started noticing things, I'm like, okay, this is either his testimony or he's struggling, one of the two. And so I just hit him up one day, I was like, hey, let's talk, I just want to ask you some questions about your story. I want to get to know you. And so I just leaned in 100% and was like, this is what comes up in me every time I see you. Is this a part of your testimony? Or is this part of your struggle? Like which one is it? And he started tearing up and he was like, well, it's part of my struggle. And I said, well, give me some history and just tell me your story. And he starts giving me this background of him living an active homosexual sin, sexual perversion, just all kinds of sexual sin.

And he's talking about it. It was happening in his life while he was leading worship at another church, while he was on another worship team. And long story short, we had this whole conversation and he's weeping by the end of it. And he says, I was on a worship team for a long time, several years of my life, and not one person ever asked me this question or had this conversation with me. And he just began to say, thank you for caring. Nobody has ever cared or asked this question. And so anyway, we went on this journey, me and him, and there's another guy in our community, Pastor Danny, that's part of his testimony as well. And there was just a group of us that rallied around him and started walking with him through this. Landon even jumped in and we just rallied around this guy and today he's walking in freedom, like real freedom, because we were willing to have the hard conversation and willing to go the distance with him, to walk with him through this process. And so just to echo what you're saying, it's just have the conversation. Worship pastor, senior lead pastor, worship team, this stuff doesn't just disappear and go away. The alcohol, the sexual sin, this doesn't just dissipate, you know what I mean? We have to be willing to get in the trenches, have the hard conversations, ask the hard questions and disciple people to Jesus. There's a scripture that says, it's somewhere in Proverbs, hopefully the podcast will get it somewhere on the screen or something, I don't know the address, but it's somewhere in Proverbs and it says, those who conceal their transgressions will not prosper, but the ones who repent, find mercy. And it's been a keynote scripture for our community, what we're trying to do, what we're believing for, what we pray for, what we're walking people into, is we want to create an atmosphere that allows for the authenticity and for the conviction of the Holy Spirit to flow so that people come forward and repent and bring things into the light. Because according to the word, there's mercy there.

The hardest part is when things are exposed, and when things are exposed, that's when it's the toughest. But the truth is, we're all in it. Right. Because we've all sinned. Exactly. Because we've all had sin exposed. Exactly. The enemy tries to make you feel like you're the only one. Exactly. There's a problem, again, and I know we've got to end this thing, but so many of these young leaders have risen to fame or great influence so quickly. And so it is true, the greater the influence and the faster the rise, it does feel like potentially a greater fall, so they continue to cover. Our God is a merciful God. Don't wait until you have to be humbled or exposed by the enemy. That will happen because you didn't want to submit to a true freedom, deliverance, healing process, to accountability that's beautiful, to exposing it over and over and over until you're free. And then you get to testify and stand firm and overcome the accuser. But I think so many people are afraid of what you just said, the exposure. They want the exposure in one form, but not that. But we are all in that together. It's a lifestyle of exposing. But it doesn't help when we don't testify about what God has done in our life, right? And so when you're in an atmosphere where everybody's just always talking about what God has set them free from, like the atmosphere is set for people to live in the light. And so that's what I mean. It's like what I love in our community is it doesn't matter, every Sunday in the green room, in rehearsal, people talk about what they struggle with, what God did, you know,

and it creates an atmosphere where people aren't ashamed. They're like, Oh yeah, I struggle. You got free of this? Yeah, I had a hard time. I got, I fell last night. And we're like, awesome. You're living in the light. What you're talking about is beautiful. When the enemy gets a hold of your sin in a newspaper or something, that's how the enemy wants to expose, is to place shame on you. But you get to be your own man and woman to walk according to the word of the Lord that gets to from the mountaintops, this is what I was, this is what I did. But God's so good. This is what he came and did. And you get to give the glory to who actually deserves it. Yeah, you get to give him all the glory for the redemption that we get to walk in and out. And you get to keep yourself from redemption, hiding sin, concealing it like that scripture said. Okay. So speaking of all this, we're going to close on this, unless there's anything else that the both of you are fired up about. I love it. I'm just fired up listening. Okay. Catherine, I would love for you to pray for freedom over the worship community. We're going to pray with you, but I just, I want you to pray for freedom. I know you love to walk in that freedom and deliverance and discipleship, but I'm believing that there's going to be a shift. There's going to be a shift in the worship community.

You started to talk about the sparks that you're already seeing, the testimonies that you're hearing, this awakening and desiring of God and more of him. Would you pray for more of that? Absolutely. And just to those watching, I just feel like there is a stirring in some people's hearts right now, where you just needed to hear this conversation to get some encouragement to say, I've had enough living in this cycle of ungodliness and the rat race of, of what is called the music industry. And the Lord's been speaking to your heart for a long time. And I just want to speak over you and declare that that fire is being ignited in Jesus name. And I just decree over your heart and life that, that the power of God is coming over you. pull you out of this so that you have the authority to make the right decisions in this season, to get back to the place where God is leading you, to get back to the place of hearing his voice, to get back to the place of intimacy, to get back to the place of holiness and purity. And I just rebuke every plan of the enemy that would cause you to make a fearful decision that says the Lord's not gonna take care of me, that if I make this decision, I'm no longer gonna have influence. And we just break off all of those lies. And I just thank you, Lord, that you're awakening a generation of those who love to live a life of obedience to Christ. And I just say, oh, Holy Spirit, would you make that spark a fire right now, a flame in these hearts?

And I just decree to the people watching that you are part of a new breed of worshipers who are rising up and who are making a decision to live set apart and really do things his way. In Jesus' name. Amen, amen. Who the son sets free is free indeed. And so we just pray that today this conversation put no condemnation in Jesus' name, but we welcome a holy conviction that leads us into repentance and into intimacy and freedom, like Catherine just prayed for. Thank you, ladies, for having this conversation with me today. Thank you, everybody, for listening. If you would share this episode, I am praying that this ministers to so many people and even those that maybe you're not in the worship community, but you've really struggled as a Christian with alcoholism because you have been in cultures that has promoted it and you feel a holy conviction of like, no, I'm putting away alcohol, I'm setting it aside. I felt the conviction of the Lord. Listen to that conviction. It's the Holy Spirit that knows what's best for you. And so thank you so much for joining us today and we'll see you on another episode of Holy Disruption. Thank you for joining me on this episode of Holy Disruption,

where we are awakening the bride of Christ and calling the church back to holiness. If you'd like to continue with me on this journey, follow me on social at Heather Shaw and make sure to subscribe at Mercy Culture on YouTube and all podcast platforms. Thank you.