Why Men Drift Into Spiritual Passivity

He said, "Most men die at 27, but aren't buried until they're 72." That's what we talk about today. How do men keep living? What hinders men? What helps men? Today I have two of our pastors on the podcast. We talk about manhood and masculinity. You're going to enjoy this episode. If you want more, please like or subscribe below. You're listening to Open Bible Open Life with Pastor Kyle Mercer. At Two Cities, we're passionate about making and mobilizing disciples. And that doesn't end with Sunday. We're here to bring God's word and work into your week so you can be equipped to be sent wherever you go. All right, Ryan, Luke, welcome to the podcast. Hey, thanks for having us on. Yep. If we're going to talk about manhood, we'll just see. We were talking before we turned the cameras on. We're not even sure where this conversation is going to go. All we know is that we are three pastors, three men here, and that here's maybe the first thing I'll throw out to you guys. Somehow, I've started to follow all of these Instagram, what I even say, they've got great one-liners. They show up and it's like whether it's like philosophy or Stoics and they'll see a quote and they'll have great music in the background. And, you know, most times I see these quotes, I'm like, I don't know, it's an okay quote. I saw a quote yesterday, music's an imaginary music in the background. Here's the quote. Most men die at 27.

We just don't bury them until they're 72. Mark Twain. Yeah. Let me say it again. Most men die at 27. We just don't bury them till they're 72. Okay. Now, I'll tell you what I thought of in a second. But when I say that quote, I didn't tell you beforehand, I was going to say that quote to you. That's not a Bible verse. Okay. But there is, that might be some all truth is God's truth kind of moment. What do you think? And when I say that, how do men die at 27? Is that true? I think it's for sure it's true. I mean, I still reflect, but when you said that, I reflect back to when we had John Tyson here for one of our men's events and he's speaking and you sit down and you have a conversation with him after the event is over, Q and A up there on the stage. And one of the things you asked him to speak into was to the older man. And one of the things that he responded of like, here's what I would say to the older man, do not lose your sense of wonder, you know, and where it's, it's the, this man who has, you know, just kind of settles with life, disk gets disgruntled with like, here's my expectations, here's my dreams, they've all died. And now I am just coasting for the rest of my life. I'm no longer surprised. I'm no longer just taking in life. I'm just coasting and I've lost it. That's, that's immediately what I think of.

Yeah. That's good. I mean, I'm surprised it's 27. Yeah, even earlier, because I think a big part of it's just like men, men not having purpose in their life, but I can see like, man, maybe 27, they've started the career, they've grown their family and they're kind of like, what's, what's next? And it's kind of just going for the next decades of not doing something, you know. And so I think a big part of it's just losing that mentality in mindset of man, life's an adventure, having this wonder behind what I'm doing, this ferociousness, this fierceness behind what I'm doing, what God's called me to do, you know. So. Yeah. And I wonder too, I had the same thoughts as you guys. I'm thinking to myself, you know, particularly I'm thinking of the guy who there's two different types of guys that would die at 27. And again, like you said, it could be 25 or 32, whatever, but it's the guy that basically has settled into, this is my marriage and it's not really what I thought. And we can or can't have kids and this is what it is. And I'm never going to make a lot of money or this is just, I make a lot of money, but I don't really like my job. And then in some version, they wait till retirement or the weekend or, you know, their next vacation or something like that. I think about that guy. And then I also think about maybe, you know, is there a version of this as we think about the men in our church for a single man? Does that make sense? So there's, there's the, there's the death of like, okay, I've kind of got a couple of things and now I've just like settled in. How would you see it for, how would a single guy experience that? Yeah, I mean, trying to think about that season of life for me personally, even just

friends that I've walked through singleness with, you know, I think a big part of it, it can be, it can feel like a dream that's died. And they've missed their opportunity maybe in a sense. And I think that can flip a switch in terms of them just coasting them from then on out. Because I think it takes more intentionality because you don't have those responsibilities. You don't have that, like that family, those kids around you each day where it's like, man, I have eight to five, nine to five and then I'm at home. not momentum behind it, it can kind of just start to slow down. Yeah, maybe there's the death of in, I'm not saying also go men go here, but in hedonism, it's like I almost just am dying in my absolute pursuit of pleasure and realizing nothing's going to satisfy me. Right. I mean, even think about it from like the realm of sports, you walk into the locker room of a winning team, the atmosphere is much different than a team that you walk into and they're on a 10 game losing streak, there's little hope, there's little of like, hey, I am actually giving everything I've got, I am going to sacrifice to charge up that next hill. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, after a bunch of losses, you start to change your perspective. Yeah. And I think that's, I mean, the essence of what you're talking about there, dying at 27, regardless of whether you're married, single, or wherever you're at, it's like after so many losses, how do you hold on to that optimism? That's right. That's right. Maybe like, if I could even just toss the question back at you. Yeah. I mean, like, how do you hold on to the optimism after, after so many losses? I mean, if you're, if you're young and you're not really getting, you know, 27, I say young because I'm, yeah, yeah, yeah. I met someone one year down the road, and I got in the corner and said, I just met this

great kid and I was like, he's only a decade younger than me, but I called him a kid because he wasn't married yet, we were talking for a while and, and I tell him my, my, my kids when I picked up, I'm like, I just, I met this great kid and they're like, dad, which kid am I? I'm like, no, one of the student leaders, he said, anyway, you know, but so I'm getting old. But I'm sorry. You're saying, yeah. No, but I was just, you know, like, like, how do you hold on to that optimism? How do you hold on to that wonder when it looks like everything that either it's like, I've accomplished all the dreams that I did have, you know, I had the dream of, of getting the job of getting married, of having the kids, getting the house. And then this is like, I don't even know what the dream is next. I don't even know how to dream bigger than that because finances are tight. I'm trying to run the household or even just like when you're, you're single. And I, I've tried all of these avenues. How do I keep showing up, you know, with that, that fire in my belly ready to charge the next hill as, you know, I know a book that we've talked about before, John Eldridge, you know, his book, Wild and Heart, I haven't read it for years, but you're right. Classic. If any, maybe this isn't a full endorsement because it's been a long time since I read it. But that, that, that was a book. It's interesting. Well, because we're going to get into some books today. But, you know, I don't want to say every generation, but it seems like every generation, there's a couple books about manhood that just, or sometimes it's a movie, or, you know, there's just something and it just resonates either as a vision or counter vision with every, you know, I mean, don't tell me a fight club is not some, and that's not an endorsement of a fight club.

But I'm saying, don't tell me that that is not, I mean, it's, it's about way more than this. But that's about manhood. And so what is it? Yeah. And a guy who, think about this, we're in Plantomas. I mean, Edward Norton in that movie, I mean, he is, I remember that, you know, there's a scene in that movie where he's talking about the one piece of Ikea furniture he's missing for his household. And, you know, when I saw this movie in my BC days back in the day, okay, but when I saw it, I was too young to really understand what's going on, but it, you know, it's basically making fun of like modern middle-class men or maybe even upper class too. It's like, oh, you know, and Brad Pitt shows up in his life and is like, oh, is, so you, when you get that final piece of Ikea furniture, that's going to complete your, you got your condo, you got your house, like, then he asked that famous question, how's that working for you? Yeah. And it just kind of sits there. Right. And so, but, okay, wild or hard. I don't know what you're saying about that. Well, I was just saying about that. I mean, you know, even it's funny they bring up fight club because like one of the, he talks about three things within the book was, you know, a battle to fight and adventure to live and a beauty to rescue, but like, you know, fight club is like a battle to fight. Probably the wrong fight, you know, in the, you know, in the parking lot, not necessarily, but it's just, you know, and I just love to be free to answer that question of what does it look like to show up over and over again when you feel like I don't know how to actually hold on to the optimism or get that optimism back. Yeah.

That's a good question. So, again, I don't answer your question and this, I know we're talking a lot about social media, but I do think this is where people live. Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't know what, maybe it just knows you're talking to a 42 year old man. Like, I don't know how social media knows less or because I watched a clip on manhood from a thing. But, but I am currently getting like one of the big things I'm getting advertised right now, or sponsored ads for are like these men's journals. Mm hmm. I don't know if you've ever gotten. So the advertisers, the advertisers subscribe to one, yeah, there's, there's the advertisements for them are awesome, like, I'm like, whoever their media person is, like, I hope he's a Christian let's hire him. Like, I'm like, because it starts out like this, it's Matthew McConaughey. So it's just a clip from the podcast with Matthew McConaughey and he's like, all right, come on, dust yourself off. No, I'll get back up get back It's not acting, he's talking about what you do. And he's like, you got yourself off, you get back up again, and I'm like, this whole branding, they're tapping into something, okay? And I'm gonna answer your question. They're tapping into something of, you need a new start. So like, I'm getting advertised 90-day journals. It was like commitments. Like I saw, like, if you do this journal, you only drink water for 90 days. I'm like, interesting.

I'm like, not even black coffee. It's like, you know, it's no social media, which is so interesting, 'cause you're selling me this on social media. It's no social media. And honestly, you'd look at a lot of the things, and it's a commitment to 10,000 steps a day. It's a commitment to 100 pushups a day. It's a commitment to eight hours of sleep a day. It's a commitment to no alcohol. Obviously, if you're only drinking water. And I'm like, there is something, so I think I'm now answering your question. There is something that like guys are looking for like, is there a chance for me to reboot? Like there's, you know, there's these things that are like, you ever see these man camps you can go to? Where again, they advertise. And they're like, do you want to like, and it's like some military guy screaming at you. They show you, some of our listeners, if they ever see us, well, no, I'm talking about like, these, the advertisements are like, do you want to go to Ohio, you know, in November? I'm like, I don't want to be in Ohio, and I don't want to be in there in November, for sure. And it's like, and we are going to crawl through the mud, and then like, and jump in freezing water. And then like the images of the videos of like,

past things are like, the guy is screaming at them. And like, I had a buddy who went to something like this, and it was a Christian version of it. And they put him, this is a true story. I'm not even going to mention the ministry 'cause I don't want this to be on the line of like, who this was, but this is like a nationwide minister. That's kind of stuff. They put him in a cold plunge until he confessed all his sins. Oh, gosh. I mean, did he lose some toes afterwards? Well, I mean, like basically, you can't confess all your sins, obviously. Yeah, but that's not everything. Oh my goodness. What else? And in the, like, you know, I have many problems with that, just to be super clear. I think we all would. But you know, it's interesting that he looks back on it and he's like super loyal, dude. Yeah, sure. He like advocates for that ministry. He would say things like it saved his marriage. He was in a dark place. And I just say, I'll let it say, I think guys are looking for a restart. I think that's part of it's like, you know, I'm not trying to, what am I trying to say?

We're not trying to be the cool, the church is not trying to be the cool version whenever the world's doing. I do think, you know, obviously people need the word of God explain to them and give it, they need hope. I think guys are looking for moments and mentors. I just came up with that. But there it is. I genuinely, I'm like, when I think about it, I'm like, guys are looking for a moment. They're looking for it. They're like, could it be that, could this event be it? You know, different guys think, could it be this girl? Could it be on my kids' board? Could it be my, they're looking for it? Yeah. Could it be New Year's? And then honestly, they're looking for mentors. Like I need somebody, you know, like, you know, when Kevin Myers was here, Pastor Kevin Myers, you know, he just talked about the importance of his mentoring relationship with John Maxwell. He talked about that publicly. He talked about it privately. Yeah. So I think that's part of what we want to do. I mean, Jordan Peterson, who we've all talked about before. Yeah. Who, you know, is very sick, very sad. I want him to get better.

I want him to come to Christ, all this. But he, you know, has this message. Do you ever watch his message to churches? I'm not. So, I mean, it's kind of silly and I've deeply respect Dr. Moore, or Dr. Moore too. I deeply respect Dr. Peterson. But he, he gets up there and it's like a, it's got to be at least 15 minutes, 20 minute message. He's like, here's my message. Here, he's like sitting in like, in his, in his house. He's like, here's my message to churches. And one of his main messages to churches is put billboards everywhere in your city saying we want young men here. And I don't even know how to, I mean, we can figure out how to do that. I'm saying I'm not even sure that that's the best thing for us to do right now. But his whole thing is like men are so hungry for, and we're, we're getting closer to here. I try to preach that's in such a way that's practical to men, we have masculine men, we have elders, we have fathers in this church, but like the church should be a place where men are like, I can, I've been saying for years, men are practical theologians. They want to know, how do I forgive my dad? How do I make enough money so that I'm not always worried about money? How do I have an intimate relationship with my wife?

How do I invest in my kids? And it's like, that's, a lot of times we're answering questions that men are not asking. And we need to answer questions the Bible is raising up. But I'm like, men are asking some deep, practical questions about how to make their life work. - Right, yep, yep. That's what I thought about too when you're asking that. It's like men, mentors, I love that. It means just like men need other men in their lives to show them how to be a man. And so I think about even when you get in a rut, it's like you need someone who's maybe ahead of you Here's what you can do. I just like to poke and prod to get things stirred up in your spirit to continue to go forward. But I mean, I think books, like I love, there's so many great books on how to be a man. Like, I feel these are ingredients, having other men around you, like bake those. It's like, great. Now I'm putting these into practice and applying them to my life and I'm changing my family and changing this trajectory of where I'm headed. So I think it's a big part too. It's like, if you feel like you're in a rut, I mean, surround yourself with other golly men who you aspire to be and learn from them. That's right. A big part of it. Yeah. Well, you know, let's talk about that for a while, because I do think so if we want to get real proud to go for a second, because part of what we're doing here, let's mention it now, I guess, is October 9th, we're going to have a men's night.

Um, that's great. We're excited about it. This is, it's our first time that we're doing in what we call maybe an in-house internal. Um, I'm going to be preaching to the men. Uh, I'm excited. I haven't done that ever in the history of our churches, had all the men in the room. So it's going to be great. Yeah, I'm very excited. God's putting some things in my heart. Maybe toward the end, we'll talk about a couple of details about that. Um, at the same time, like, those, those are like catalytic moments for our church. Amen. Those are moments. We need to help guys get mentors and the mentors can be, you know, obviously a couple of things. Um, you're going to probably find your mentors, number one, being in church, coming early, staying late, number two, getting actually in a group and being a meaningful part of it. Number three, eventually finding your DNA group of your guys. Number four, being on a serving team. I mean, I know some guys may serve in areas where it doesn't quite work out, but you get in those environments. You're eventually going to, and I just know the culture, it's going to get on you. And what I want young men to understand. And I'd still put myself in the young man category and a lot of ways from halfway through life. But it's like what I think young men and what I need to understand is older men are so excited to invest in young men. They cannot stand it. If they're rightly oriented, they like, they literally cannot stand it. Like if they're in our church, they are in our church, maybe they love our worship, whatever. Maybe they like to teach, but they are in our church again and again and again, because of

the young men in our church, because of the young fathers, because of all the college and they're excited about that. So let's, here's what I'm thinking and I want to hear other practical things. I, I'll, I'll, I'll start, I'll, and I'll, I'll go second to books. Okay. I think the number one thing men need, and actually he talks about it in this book, Fighting Shadows. Okay. So we'll start there is he doesn't say it's the number one thing. I think it might be the number one thing men need after. I'm assuming church, I'm assuming they're part of the church. Okay. I'm assuming they're Christians, assuming they love God's words. I think they need, I think what he calls in here, a hang. Yeah. So what I mean is, so I've got, um, on my sabbatical, um, was talking to our direction holders and one of the things that they were like, man, we really, like, for your long term health, and you're coming back from the sabbatical and it's been 10 years. And you guys know we're heading into a very busy fall and a very, very busy future. They were like, we want you to have a hang. I don't care if you call it your DNA group. I don't care what you call it. And so there's a group of four of us now that get together. Here's what we found works for us. We get together at least once a month, but when we get together, it's at least three hours. So I'm not, this is, as Larry Osborne, like I said, this is prescript descriptive, not prescriptive. Okay. Narrative, not normative, like, but what I have found is I've been in all types of DNA groups and I'm pro-DNA groups and I'm pro-DNA groups meeting consistently in the mornings. And that would probably be the number one thing DNA groups do.

And I'm actually saying the hang could replace or, or just be a supplement to it. But what I have found is when I'm meeting at six a.m. at breakfast time, I have an hour and a half and I'm heading to work and everybody's waking up. And it's kind of like, and everybody's got the agenda for the day on. And when three guys come over at my house at eight o'clock at night and we're like, okay, we could handle six hours of sleep for one night if we need it. And if we get into it, I mean, the first time we had it, it was like, they came over at eight. I think the last guy left it one in the morning. And it's like, I don't know how time works, but I actually think that five hours is more valuable than maybe two months of meeting for an hour and 15 minutes or hour and a half before we had to work. So I, have you guys experienced a much jump in on the spot? Do you guys have environments? Let me say this, I'm sure we've all had environments like that. I'm trying to encourage guys to try to create that more often. If the fire pits almost as important as a bullet is, maybe you guys can talk about that. Whether you do that consistently, I know you've all been a part of that. What, what, what happens in those environments in those hang environments? I mean, especially to when you say that it's unhurried, no agenda. Yes. I feel like it's like it's within those environments. You're allowed to actually, I can think she could be myself. I'm not looking at going. Yeah, it's like, I'm not looking at the clock going. 12 things that I need to get done today. And it starts in an hour. And, you know, I better get out of here or else my whole day is going to be thrown off. But it was like, I actually get to, yeah, I get to take all of, I don't know, pull the curtain fully back and go like,

here's who I am, here's what's going on. And it's probably, it's within those, it's within those settings where it's like, I'm hitting the light and I'm also hitting the heavy, if you don't want to be like that. It's like, I'm just getting to be myself, but it's also like, hey, I want to get to the heart of the matter of what's happening here. And you're providing and opening up the space for that. So, yeah, there's just, there's some kind of, the word just does a lot, I think, through men getting together and sharing and just like, man, the struggles are going through. But having people, you can just voice that too as well. I'm acting as thing about the times that my DNA does that. And so we're in a rhythm right now where we're getting together once a month and just, we're just chatting, we're just sharing updates. - Is it at night as well? - Yeah, so same thing, we just realized we cannot do early mornings at a restaurant. - Which is fun. - Which is fun. - I think practically what I'm finding for a lot of men in the Asian stage and a lot of our men are in is, man, I don't even care if we don't start time at the clock at night. 'Cause if the wife's happy and the kids are in bed and I can, most people can handle like, okay, we didn't get the best sleep one night.

I can handle that to go deep for three or four hours. Anyway, keep going. - Yeah, yeah, it's just, I mean, for me personally, it's an opportunity to let my guard down. They know me, they know my weaknesses, they know my strengths. I don't have to pretend, I am outside of that, but it's just an opportunity to be like, man, be real with these guys and let them into a part of my life that everyone has access to, you know? And so that is a lot, I think for a man, just to be like, it isn't on my shoulders. I don't have to be just, I got this, you know? And so it's just, it's really reviving for my soul in a sense of like, man, this is such a good hang. Like I'm going through stuff, he's going through stuff. Like, but we're here encouraging one another, talking about it. It's not left in the dark. We're not just kind of like putting it beneath, beneath us, whatever it might be. So yeah, I just find those hangs just a very good time just to man be real with two or three other guys. Yeah. - Another thing I think is, so that would be one level. And I'm almost like, if you could only have one thing in your life, it, you know, I don't have a bottle for that, but I just think, man, that some version of hang,

whatever works for you, some other guy might be like, well, it's actually, it's Saturday morning for three hours 'cause or whatever, but, but for me, and it sounds like for a lot of us, it's been, it's been a night. And then I do think there is something about the more like, let's get together and let's talk about some, like, and not that this couldn't be at the hang too at some point. It's like, hey guys, as we're doing this, like every time we come together, read two or three chapters and these are the themes and topics, I've got my own reasons why, but why do you guys think reading books together with other men is helpful? Because, you know, this is gonna be a foreign concept to, anyone who's, most guys are not reading books. Women, for example, more have, obviously being stereotypical, but you're tend to find more book clubs. I don't meet a lot of guy book clubs. I meet a lot of girl book clubs. Hey, we're reading the new one, Oprah recommended it, whatever. You're not seeing where guys go, I'm gonna buy a book, I'm gonna read the entire thing, I'm gonna use a highlighter, I'm gonna think about my life, and then I'm gonna show up and, I mean, why do you think these are so important? Not necessarily these books, but having book conversations. - Yeah, if I could even just back up a little bit, share a story of, you know, from my life, you know,

so I was in my mid 20s, already, had already gone through Bible college, I'm married, I've got a couple of kids, and I would say, like publicly, I am not a reader, I don't like reading, I just do it, I mean, and I did it when I was in college 'cause I had to, but it's like at the same time, I'm also like praying very fervently, like just like passage, God give me wisdom. Here I am, I'm married, I've been married for whatever it is, three or four years by now, I've got a couple of kids now, and I'm just running into Roblok after Roblok, and I just can't figure out certain aspects of life, and all the while, refusing to read. You know, it's just like, God give me wisdom, give me wisdom, but I'm just hoping it kind of just like falls upon me. I go to a Bible conference, actually a pastor's conference, a booty Bible college, and as part of the conference, I walk away with 25 books. You know, it's like part of, it's not like I bought them, it was like, hey, part of your entrance, it's included, hey, if you show up here in the bookstore, you're gonna get this book and this book, and I walk away, and it was like, it clicked, like, oh, God's giving me wisdom, and I have to find it, I have to search it, I mean, which is very biblical, I mean, it's, I mean, Proverbs talks about searching for wisdom, and I wanna find it in God's word, but it's just like, also like, I mean, it's almost like that aha, epiphany in that moment, it was like, there is so much wisdom that men and women have poured out

into the pages, refined it into a book, that it takes to go from, I've got a thought and I'm going to put it all here in front of you. And I mean, there's plenty of books that I've read and I'm like, I don't like it, it's no good. But like, yeah, I can't remember who has said it, but Piper, whoever it is, it talks about how it's not necessarily the book or the chapter. Sometimes it's just the sentence, you know, that captivates you and that you have to go find. And it's one thing for me to sit with it, you know, myself. It's like, at one point in time, you know, people would ask me like, hey, what's your favorite book? Oftentimes it would be like, whatever I'm reading right now. You know, just because it was like, it opened up a doorway for me to learn from so many individuals who have walked further down the road than I have. And then, you know, just, it's helpful for me to talk about it with more than just my wife. I mean, my wife, I would say with absolute certainty is my best friend in the world. And I'm not just saying this for, you know, for brownie points, but, but it's like, so it was like, dinner time conversations was me, like just spilling out, here's what I've learned. Here's what I'm thinking through. But like, it's an opportunity for me to sit down with other men and for them to, you know, pour it back in to me.

Here's the angle that I'm looking at it from. I mean, my DNA, I remember John Tyson came, we read through that book. - Yes, me too. And we talked about it together and it was so helpful, especially too from the standpoint of going, there are certain chapters that are going to resonate with me more than it resonates with them and vice versa. And for us to be able to just kind of, you know, chop each other back and forth with it. - Well, when people, I mean, men in general too, just have like research supports this, like we just bond over shared activities. So even just reading a book together, it just, it allows us to talk about things that either we don't want to talk about forces us to sometimes, or it brings up stuff that like, oh, I didn't know I had this father one. Oh, I didn't know I was dealing with this and wrestling with this in my marriage, but this allowed a door to open up for us to talk about it and for me to find peace in it. - Yeah. And I think when you get in those hang environments with other guys and talk through books, and I'm gonna mention something in this book for a second, I think sometimes what let's guys do is a guy opens up about his kids and everyone goes, me too. Or at least two other guys of the five or something say,

oh, I've been, or it was there, I am there. And there's almost like, you know, as we're recording this, I'm preaching on the Romans 11 this week, and I just think men feel that Elijah prayer of God, I'm the only one. And obviously in context, there he's saying I'm the only one who believes, but I think we can feel I'm the only one who's, and I'm trying to make something up, I'm the only one who hasn't talked to his teenage daughter for over a week that's never happened. I bet no one ever has had conflict with their daughters and someone's like, that's actually not how it works. And then there's a sense of relief and partnership. And so here's the thing. So I'm looking at the book, Fighting Shadows by Jefferson Bethke, John Tyson, just as any, I basically, these were just some of the books I had in my office. You and I have talked to many times about men of courage by later on. - Oh yeah, fantastic. - Probably my favorite. If I could only choose one and only have it on me, we can talk about that maybe. But here, let me just read a couple of these topics. And I think you'll see why what you're saying is true. It's like, or one of you were both, you were talking about like,

yeah, there are just like certain things you're like, I wouldn't even have thought that that's so despair, chapter two, he has an introduction to despair. I'm like, okay, I could see a certain guy in the group going, oh, that's where I am. So then I could see other guys going, man, I've not even thought about what despair might look like. Loneliness, shame, lost ambition, futility, apathy. Those are all, the titles are the shadow of. And I'm exactly with you. Sometimes it's a definition. Sometimes it's a story that you're just like, man, this is, sometimes it's a quote like you're saying, and you're just like, this is all of a sudden I, or it's a helpful tool or hack. I mean, men love tools. I mean, we, you know, part of when years ago, I was talking about adulthood, manhood, maturity in general, is moving from me to me, a nautilator in toys to tools. And I do think, I mean, you know, I always think of, I grew up watching home improvement. - Oh yeah. - And I think about Tim, the toolman, Toby. - Oh yeah. - You know it, that's right. - It was his friend, Al. - Al. - And I just think sure those guys, and it's kind of like, they were like, the classic American ale.

And like of this one generation flannel shirt, it was flannel shirt and tool belt. And I'm like, man, men, you know, forget the stereotypes there, but I'm just like, men need a tool belt, dude. And they need to know, you know, I was encouraged. We had a young man in our church, which out to me. And he just said, you know, got my first job. Can you, would there be a godly person who could help me think about finances in our church? And I just love that. This guy was in his early twenties. He wasn't saying, I need a financial advisor to say, he's like, I just need a godly man. I don't understand compounding. You didn't say all this to me, but this one I'm thinking. And so I'm like, this is the church. And I do think you bring up a good point. I think we have, we all have need to know, need to grow moments. And I think the best thing to do is define, man, if there's a couple guys, we're even just another guy. And you're like, dude, we are both newly married. What if we read Tim Keller's book on marriage and just talked about it? Yeah. Or I'll tell you another one. I think Larry, so we talk about how much we love Larry Krabs, men encourage. Larry Krab also has my favorite marriage book. Okay. It's called, now I can't remember it as I say right now. But he doesn't write that in marriage book. So it's like building a great marriage. It's the same kind of deep theology, practical application, but Larry, you know, Larry passed away to be with the Lord a couple of years ago. And so he was kind of a generation before us. So everybody knows Tim Keller, they're different. Larry was a counselor, Tim Keller was a pastor. But I just think sometimes it's men, let's get the right book in front of you. Like whether it's you're like two guys getting together to go, what do we, why don't we read Bill Hybell's walk across the room and just talk about why aren't we sharing the gospel? Or you know, gospel-powered parenting. And let's just talk about being, I think that's, but you got to find the right guys in the right stage of life that go.

I mean, a single guy doesn't want to read a parenting book in the right. And neither probably should he right now. But you know, but as soon as you get in that next stage of life, you know, I'm meeting all these guys, I'm talking to the guys who get, our church is getting older. And I'm meeting these empty nesters and I'm meeting these, you know, near retired guys. And they're all interested in like, you know, what's the guy's name? Bob Subb, Bob Halftime? I forget what it's called. It's a very Bob Halftime. No, no, sorry. The book's called Halftime. I forget the guy who wrote it. I wish we had Joe Rogut. Jamie, what's up? But, but there's, there's all these books about like, oh, I'll give you another example. Is it Bob Gough? Is that you talking about? No, Bob Gough's good too. Yeah. Bob Buford, thank you. We got it back there. Bob Buford, that's who it is. Bob Buford Halftime. Well, here's the thing. You know, when I turned 40 is I had, you know, John Tyson and a couple other people, Carlos Lillett, some others, and they were recommending me. They were like, you need to read Arthur Brooks. And they, all these books that I had not even, you know, some, some guys like, I'm trying to even think of who they were, like some psychologist and sociologist and, hey, this is, you know, not a Christian book necessarily, but it talks about what happens to a man the second half of his life. And again, I would have not cared about that book at all, 25 years old, but at 40 years old, I was like, I care a ton about this right now. So, yeah, what would be some other books or topics that you find are very helpful in meeting with men? I know some of it's going to be, as you guys think, I know some of it's going to be applicable to both sexes, but there'll be an answer, for example, fighting, sin, and temptation. What's like, I hope women talk to women like that. But we know that with guys, there's going to be a unique emphasis. You know, yeah, I mean, there's just different categories. I mean, to me, I feel like in the season of life, I'm in right now. I love books, and they're definitely books, but I feel like in this season, I benefit so much just from being around other men who were in the same season as me, young kids, long days, things like that. And so, you know, it's more from our side of like, man, are we engaging in our families? Are we being passive? Are we dealing with loneliness or isolation due to the business of it? You know, and so for me personally, it's honestly been more of just like, hey, let's just, let's just do a kind of a dissection of just what's been going on in your life recently, your family, your marriage, your finances, your intimacy with your wife. Like, just again, nothing's off the table.

You have a hunting license. As Pastor Nate first said, then I've always held on to, I'm just like, man, ask me any questions. Just let's just talk about stuff, to be honest. Yeah, I'm not sure if I would, I mean, because I'm just trying to think through the filter of books that I've read, you know, part of me is like, once I actually go to my phone and pull out goodreads, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, I mean, I just think it through, I mean, some of the books that, you know, like, we've already talked about already, you know, just the wild at heart, actually, I just read through that with, with a young guy, just a couple of months about months ago. When you gave me that, when you said those three categories again, it just hit right here. Yeah. I'm like, that is as true as I remember reading that when I was brand new Christmas 17 years old. I mean, it's a, I mean, that's a book that I've read twice, you know, I mean, I read it probably two or three years ago. Actually, it was talked about on this podcast, it was brought up. I was like, Hey, let me jump on that. And I read it. And then, you know, another young guy who and I were getting together, Hey, let's read through this book. And it was just fantastic. It was so good for me to just go back through it, you know, a battle to fight, you know, it's like, Hey, what is, what is the next hill that I'm seeking to climb up with? You know, I've got, I've got a wife, Lauren, I've been married for, for 23 years. What does it look like for us to charge up that hill together? Like where we're at right now in the season of life, we've got five kids, all girls, you know, ranging from 21 to 12. Like, how do I fight that battle? And you know the Lexington campus like what's going on here? Like what's I mean like those are battles that are fighting that I want to fight and I want to fight well You know the adventure that I that I want to live you know I mean and I don't know if I would separate those too far, you know And to me I've started to use adventure admission as synonyms. Yeah in the same way. It's like I think the great adventure of You know if Abraham is one of the guys that is clearly called out of passivity and apathy Into adventure. It's really mission to bless the whole right and then - I mean just I mean we've referenced it a couple of times But men of courage Excellent. I cannot speak highly enough of that book. I mean just I mean you rustle through like Where are their passive areas in my life? You know, I mean like that's I mean that's a big driving emphasis of the book You know we're talks about where Adam sin of passivity of just kind of I mean he's there It's not when you know someone have you know someone have said, you know when Adam was away Eve went astray

It's ridiculous. I mean Adam was I mean, it's just like was right there with with her and and did nothing about it and And so like that's been like a driving point of my life of like am I being intentional with my life And this part of me just going I've I've got to make sure that I'm aligned each and every day In order to head in the direction that I need to go that I'm not just Hebrew chapter 2 talks about not, you know, pay closer attention to yourself less you drift Yes, like we are all heading in a direction and You know like a boat sitting in the middle of the water. It does not say still It is it is either you are paddling in a direction towards the Lord away from away from God or you're just letting the winds Blow you wherever you go. It's like I don't want that I don't want that for my life and so it's like I need to make sure that I'm aligned and I'm heading in the right direction and that Passivity does not have a say in my life. Yeah, I uprooted everywhere. It shows up You know when you when you were saying earlier and this you said in this season I'm not reading a ton and then you were talking you went right to mentors and it's interesting I thought you were gonna go somewhere else I thought what you're gonna say and I think mentors even better I thought what you're gonna say is and I think a lot of guys would say this I don't read a ton right now I listen to podcasts. Mm-hmm. We're not against podcast in fact my yes house to live around the past This is the podcast against podcast values. No, but I just saw this um Saw this Saturn. I don't know how old this is. I saw this Saturday night live skit That's how about this? I saw the seven-minute live skit and I haven't thought Saturday night lives funny for years But there's a Saturday night live skit Where it's all about how men age 25 to 45 don't go to the doctor, which is like so true for men Oh, yeah, and so it's it so this whole like it's an advertisement goes hey your husband won't you know? He's 25. He's 30. He won't go to the doctor men won't go to the doctor He said so what we did is we turned the doctor's office into a podcast It's so funny, but it's it was like this call cultural moment to go I'm sure women do too and women have their own podcasts and all that good stuff But there is something when it does come to podcast as a general rule that men listen to an enormous amount of podcasts I mean, I just think about so what I want to talk about toward the end is a Little bit about who are men influenced by today. So we just had I probably did it backwards

But we just talked about man. Here's some great, you know, we thank God for Jobe Martin and a brand new book. I mean, you know Taking an old truth and making it familiar taking the familiar making it fresh We know men are hungry To be fathered in part and for leadership and mentorship. I think in part We see it in the rise of all of these podcasts, you know, we there's personalities So there would be like the David Goggins, you know, just screaming at you I mean as he's running 500 miles Yes, and as he's like he's like the example of like the will to live or something like he lost hundreds of pounds All this kind of stuff there are the Jordan Peterson's and Arthur Brooks And there's a whole category of these guys and I would say they're like the Masculine intellect like we're longing for you know, it's like maybe some of us had dads that were like I don't know, you know turn the football back on and we're like no dad We need an answer like why now, please and so they kind of stepped in that role and then there are the you know The Jocko Wilkins he fits more with dog Thank you, and then there is you know, the Joe Rogans, which is just like, you know, I think I I think I said this before but I saw you to Charlie Kirk. We were we just remembered Yeah, I am passing a year ago and I saw this he was I Think he was talking to Gavin Newsom and It would Gavin Newsom had him on for one of the interesting interviews he said on the interview is he said, "Have you noticed?" He talks to Governor Newsom. He said, "Have you noticed that almost all of the podcasts, the Joe Rogans and stuff like that, he said, "Have you noticed that almost all of them are conservative?" And Gavin's like, "Oh, interesting point." He said, "It's because it's too masculine for the liberals." Yeah, it was this moment where he's like, "Basically there is a sparring." And of course, I think liberals can do that too, I think conservatives can do that. But he was saying the liberals seemed to be un... This was, again, Charlie Kirk's thoughts.

The liberals seemed to be unable or unwilling to jump in the verbal fight of ideas and reason and logic. And so I just thought, I thought, you know, you have, so I say all that to say, Joe Rogan is kind of this, I don't know, like, reasonable, thoughtful, if it's even a word, like, dialogical. Like he'll just sit there. Like what man, like, before Joe Rogan, no one would have ever believed you could have a podcast for three hours. I mean, could you imagine, like, I don't know, I need to do it for a while, like, ten years ago, I'm like, "Hey, guys, other people will watch people they don't even know. Talk for three hours about aliens." You're like, "No, they wouldn't." It's like, "No, they do. They actually do." Oh, yeah. And I've done it too. I sat there and been like, "Whoa!" You know, and this is, especially if you find the right guys and the right topic, and they spar. Yeah. And then, you know, it's a, I consider a great blessing in 2026, like, for free, basically, or for my Spotify subscription, whatever it is, $12.99 a month. Yeah. I get to watch any of this. Who else? Am I missing anyone else? Who else? Sean Ryan. Sean Ryan. Sean Ryan. Sean Ryan.

Yes. They passed her as a Christian leader, I was just thinking of some of the, they got, "You Sean Ryan. Former military." Kind of like Jocko. It's these former military guys that have kind of been red-pilled, or I don't know if that's a phrase. And they kind of, there's some things I learned, there's some things that are changing, and then they re-engage. Theo Vaughn. Theo Vaughn. You're right, though. You're right, though. In his other way. Yeah, Theo Vaughn. I mean, Amy Poehler, interesting is enough, is like up on that higher list of, like, but I think part of that one is more or less, like, she's getting in, I don't know, the very popular, not athlete, actors and actresses. And so I think more or less, it's like, I don't know what they're talking about, honestly, I've never listened to it. I just was recently looking at, you know, some of the top ones, and like, that was another one that was, that was up there. Yeah. Yeah. I think we had the big ones, but I think guys are, they're dying, I say all that. I went, I know it for a while, but I say all that to say, I think guys are want, want to have these conversations. They want, they want to, you know, you just go back to the Shama, love the God with our heart, soul, mind and strength. You go back to Luke two, how did Jesus grow wisdom, sat your favorite God with man?

It's like men are so longing. I said earlier, practically the allegiance, they want to know, how do I work on my relationships? You know, and then, and then I think so, I'll end with this and we'll go to our men's night and close. I was with John Tyson, we were talking about Jordan Peterson or something. This was a couple of years ago. John Tyson said, he said the trifecto behind our men's ministry is, and he goes, they're not equal. Obviously Jesus is number one. He said, but it's Jesus, Jocko Jordan Peterson, and I'll never forget him saying that to me. And he said, because ultimately I want to get people to Jesus, he said, but men are dying for the discipline of Jocko, they're dying for it. And they're dying for the intellectual stability and reasoning of Jordan Peterson. Yeah. And those are ultimately found in Christ, the fulfillment, the fullness of that. But I think in all of these people we look to, we see part, the best version of them, we see part of what we're looking for in Christ, which is why I close with this, having a men's night, let's do this. Favorite memories from past men's night, and then I'll kind of close with what I'm hoping for this men's night. Oh man. So just to remind you, we've had Clayton King here, Robbie Gallady, Brian Loretz, John Tyson. Oh my gosh. Actually, I actually thought to myself, the two of the books I'm holding in my hand were by God's grace, people that have been in our church speaking to us. Yeah. Well, when we first asked that, you know, go back to him, Brian, the first person we had for a men's night, that was probably my first experience of being in an environment fully of men.

You notice all the worship was men. Just powerful. Oh, there's no room. Oh, there is. There is. It was great. But no, Brian, I mean, I love that, I was definitely a mark on me as a man of seeing other men worship God. Other men sit under God's word as Brian preached it, you know, and so that's a big memory for me. And I even think about, you know, going back to John Tyson of just men, when he gave the call of like, hey, if you feel like you're not a man, I can't remember the exact phrase he gave, but he gave a response moment and men stepped up. They stood up and they came for you. And then they told him to turn around and they looked at the whole crowd. Like that's a moment I'll never forget to. And so that's just again, seeing men in those environments, I think, which is so impactful for me. And those are things that stand out when it comes to those men's men's night. Yeah. I mean, it's hard. I mean, you know, the first thing that jumped in my mind, same thing, not just my son. How can I go? How can I go? I mean, if I were to, you know, I've heard I go to another one. I mean, last year at Clayton King, you know, I mean, as he gives, he gives this message and I remember like, you know, yeah, the, yeah, the elders come forward. You know, I was like, Hey, Ben, are going to respond. And, and just man after man after man is like, I want to get saved.

I want to get my life to Jesus Christ. Yeah. I, I, I remember, I remember you're heading back up on stage and you just like, you know, are walking by me and he's like, dude, he's got a gift. Yeah, such a gift. Uh, and so yeah, I would say those two moments, seeing out pretty hard. And the worship together gets powerful. It is so powerful, 1200, 1300 men in the same room, all singing together. We dropped down to team up on stage. Yeah, I'm telling you that we can all sing. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. And I even think, you know, we, we, we do it a little differently now. But I think, uh, the first one we have with Brian Lawrence, I remember just sitting down with him and his message was good, but the Q and A was excellent. Oh, it was. And I remember he just told story after story of his father. Yeah. You know, he's kind of evangelical royalty. Yeah. Proffered the writs. Proffered the writs, by the way, I just saw a quote from him. So he just spoke at something and this, this is another great quote. When you're born, you look like your parents. When you die, you look like your choices. Yeah. Whoo. That'll preach. I don't know what the rest of the sermon is, but that'll preach. That's right.

Well, guys, 10, we are having a men's night, October 9th. Um, this is our first time. It says the beginning. This is our first time doing a men's night with, uh, I'm grateful as the senior pastor to be able to speak a word. It feels like a very, um, strategic time in the life of our church for a lot of reasons that will become evident to our whole church that three of us know, just where we're headed into the future. And we, we, we have to get the men in the room. We have to get the families to get everybody, but, um, I'm excited. In fact, my plan is to, you know, I'm not warming up a message I've given somewhere else. I'm going to write a brand new message with the bulls eye being the men of our church. We're hoping that, you know, over a thousand men, you know, come together to sing, to pray, to hear God's word, respond. In fact, one of the things that, um, kind of, I feel like I'll put on my heart is I'm actually having something made for each of the guys. It's going to be arriving here, October 5th. It is not a hat. It is not a card. It is not a bracelet. It is not a t-shirt. And when I literally say for each of the men, each man who comes and, uh, who responds will get something that I think, I think is going to mark the moment. I think it's something that dare I say they may keep with them for a lifetime. Um, I think it's going to be very, very special. So thank you guys. Thanks for leaving your campuses. Um, thanks for just sharing a little bit of wisdom books you've read, uh, conversations

you've had. And I'm excited, guys. I'm excited for our church. I'm excited for all of the young men. I'm excited for all of the young dads. Yeah. I'm just excited for the, the unique church God's given us in this unique season. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yep. Thanks for tuning in to Open Bible Open Life with Pastor Kyle Mercer. We'll be back every week with new conversations. So make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.