A Christian’s Role in Politics

Is it a sin if Christians don't vote? Do Christians need to be in favor of the death penalty? Well, we talk about those questions and more. For more podcasts like this, you can subscribe below. You're listening to Open Bible Open Life with Pastor Kyle Mercer. At Two Cities, we're passionate about making and mobilizing disciples. And that doesn't end with Sunday. We're here to bring God's word and work into your week. So you can be equipped to be sent wherever you go. Pastor Kyle, in the late 1990s, there was a country music song. Come on. Someone named Sammy Kershaw called Politics Religion and Her. And the song was basically about how you don't need to talk to this guy about politics, religion, or as ex-girlfriend. We're going to talk about two of those things. Yeah, yeah, but not your ex-girlfriends. No ex-girlfriends, that's right. And so we're going to talk about politics and religion and how they sort of co-exist. We're going to talk about government. First question I want to ask you is, would you ever run for office? No, not right now. I mean, what should it take for you to-- I mean, for some kind of elected office? Oh my goodness.

I love what I'm doing. I will tell you that, like, what is my dream job? Like, my dream, dream, dream job. If I could just have-- if I could-- Lord, give me any job anymore. Of course, President of the United States of America. I mean, how could you not-- Well, I mean, that job will aid you like crazy and never will hate you. But I'm like, there is no job where you could have the potential influence. I mean, it's just-- Sure. And you get your own plane, you know, all that kind of stuff. And you get this really cool White House. But no, I will say this, though. I did not care a lot about politics when I was young. I just don't know. I just didn't. I don't know if I'm becoming the classic old guy. I am much more interested in the last five to 10 years. I mean, I think a lot of us, I say this whole time since COVID, when you realize how influential the government is and how much what state you're in and who your governor is. And you start realizing Supreme Court decisions have a big influence. And so I think political office is very, very important. And it's interesting, I was actually going to say to you, because you said the classic thing is everybody grows up and they're told, don't talk about politics.

Don't talk about religion. I think we know why, but let me just ask you. Why do people say that? Why have they become taboo? Is it like the polite thing is, as you go out the dinner, please don't bring up politics and please don't bring up religion? - Well, I think it's because whenever those topics are discussed, people get very emotional. They are very sensitive topics. They tend to bring about lots of divisions in relationships, in families. You know, like the stereotypical Thanksgiving thing is like, when you go home for Thanksgiving, you know, Uncle Bob is of this political sort of tribe that no one else is and it's just leads to lots of fireworks. - Oh my goodness. - And so I think people don't want to talk about it, because it leads to like so much conflict. My grandma, she had in her 70s, okay? She had a boyfriend, okay. Like, they didn't live together, but you know. And his name was Bob. And I can still, literally his name was Bob. Okay, we just call him Bob. He was an Uncle Bob's Bob. And he was like in his 70s. And I can still remember being a Uncle Joe's. This sounds like a movie scene, but I remember being a Uncle Joe's.

And Bob's dead, but Uncle Joe's still alive. But I remember walking in, and I don't know if they'd been drinking or whatever, and one of them is standing up. The other is sitting down and they are screaming at him about the Vietnam War. - Oh man. - And it got political, it wasn't a religion, but it was political. And it was two different experiences of that war and what it meant. And here we are, and it's Thanksgiving. And I can still, I mean, this was years ago. I think before I was married maybe. And it's just like, and they were yelling at each other to that, of course, where Aunt Marilyn and my grandma, I mean, everybody's like, calm down everybody. And they finally calmed down, but you're right. These are highly emotional. They're highly divisive. They're also often connected. If a person tells me they are pro-life, I know 10 things about them. And if they say they're pro-choice, I know 10 things about them usually. They almost don't need to tell me the other things because it's all connected. And one other thing, I'm answering my own question, but I've said this for years, I think it's true. It's very hard to be around people who think very differently than you.

It just is. I think if we could all choose, now Christians, we want to reach people, we love all people, and so we're willing to take the gospel into the marketplace of ideas in these antagonistic environments. But in general, people don't want to do that. - That's right. - You go to certain pockets of the city, it's like everybody lives in the center of Asheville because everybody here is liberal and woke. And they feel very good. Where everybody moved out to the country because everybody here is MAGA and conservative and has a truck and has a gun. And they don't have to worry about interacting with anybody who thinks differently than them. And so when you come to religion and politics, and they also, it's like there are big consequences. Of course, more with religion than politics, but it's like, we believe there's eternal destinies. And it's like, one of us is either we're both wrong or one of us is wrong, you know, but we're not, we're both not right. Kind of like, yeah. Yeah. That's good. So you mentioned Joe and Bob, they cared a lot about politics. You mentioned that when you were young, you didn't care almost at all. I didn't. How, how should Christians think about politics or maybe how do we live in the tension between on one side of things, not caring at all about politics and on the other side of things, caring way too much, being way too into it, idolizing politics. How do we give appropriate attention to that tension? Yeah, as Andy said, I would say. Yes, that's good. Well, I think one of the areas of maybe to start is to read the text that we were just talking about. So a couple weeks ago, I was preaching on Romans chapter 13. And so it's like, well, what does the Bible say

about it? You know, it's like, in one sense, and we'll read Romans 13 a second, in one sense, people are like, well, let's just, you know, the separation of church and state. Let's be all careful. By the way, that's often not any of our founding documents. As you know, that's something Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist. But it's interesting because at one level, you can go to the New Testament and go there, well, there's not a ton of pastors on the government. There are some we can talk about them. You go to the Old Testament and you're like, I think God in government is a massive theme. I mean, whether it is, and I've given all the examples for whether it is Daniel and, you know, the lion's den and that whole thing, whether it is, of course, Moses and Pharaoh, whether it is many of the prophets having to confront the own king of Israel. I mean, the whole checks and balances. So in one sense, you read it, you go, I think this is a much bigger theme. And then I'll tell you what else is interesting, and I'm not a granny, great church historian. But I would just say, it's only in the last 100 years that we haven't talked much about politics from the pulpit. I mean, I'm not talking about, we shouldn't endorse a candidate. We should not get ball partisan. But I think for some reason, we are uniquely afraid to talk about it, whereas you pick up a bunch of sermons from the 1850s. It's normal, whether you're Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Presbyterian, they're all talking about it. Well, I think you've mentioned before that Charles Spurgeon preached against socialism from the pulpit. And then you think about the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther, much of what he was protesting against was certainly political in nature. Well, and I'll tell you what made, you know, the story of how Billy Graham became famous. Billy Graham became famous because he actually preached against communism and the Soviet Union as an application to some things. And William Randolph Hearst loved him, the Jeff Bezos of the day, and two of the most famous words in church history, or sorry, in the 20th century church history, were Puff Graham. And he became famous overnight. And later in his life, he actually talked less about politics. But early in his ministry, even Billy Graham talked a lot about it. Okay, so let's, let's talk about a couple passages and then try to right size it because I think, you know, the simple way to say it is like, okay, well, obviously politics should not be an idol. You know, our job is not to save America as much as it's to save America, some of those great one liners. At the same time, I think we would realize that politics is a great servant. It's not a savior. And, you know, I think with politics comes debate, comes free speech,

comes arguing for the best ideas, comes voting policy. It's like, well, as far as I understand it, if you can't debate and talk about something, the only next step is fighting. That's right. And so free speech is the last defense before fighting. That's how I understand it. So let's read this passage. And then we could go to any other passage. I've got at least one or two other ones that we could talk about in regards to where does Paul particularly address? Because what you'll have is this is more an epistle, a letter where he's giving us instructions. You also could go to the book of Acts and actually see more narrative, less a prescriptive, more descriptive, how they did it. Okay, I'll read this and then we can talk about it. Because obviously, there's a lot that I talk about in my sermon that never, or sorry, that I write out that I think about that never makes it. Okay. So let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God. And those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authorities, resist what God has appointed. And those who resist will incur judgment for rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who's in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do not, or but if you do wrong, be afraid for he does not bear the sword in vain, for he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore, one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath, but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this, you also pay taxes. For the authorities are ministers of God attending to this very thing, pay to all what is owed to them. It's a taxes to whom taxes are revenue to whom revenue is at respect to whom respect is at honor to whom honors this happens in all time. I look at my notes afterwards because I got, I got, you know this, but on my average notes are 7,500 words, 22 pages, I never get to all of it. And most of the cutting happens when I'm up there. But once I've decided what to cut in the first sermon, that's normally what gets cut in the other sermons. One of the things I didn't talk about is the, the difference between what the Bible says to the individual and what the Bible says to the state. And I actually think this is an important conversation because otherwise Christians get in trouble. Or they feel caught. So they're in, they're in college, for example, I'll give you a great example.

Um, and they say, well, you know what, I cannot even believe, Christian, that you would be for the death penalty. I mean, did, did, did not Jesus say turn the other cheek? It's like, that is what he said to the individual. The job of the state is not to turn the cheek. The, the job of the individual, so the main attribute of the individual in the Bible is love. And the main attribute of the state is justice. And so I think we are completely consistent to go, you're right. You need to forgive. You know, it's interesting. We're in the middle of, uh, what's that guy's name? Um, the guy that the Caleb Flynn. Yes. Have you been watching this stuff? I know you, I've seen the clips. It's it's dark. It's dark. Yeah. This guy, by the way, it looks like he's aged 20 years and three years, whatever this trials. Okay. Well, I, I'm, I almost didn't watch it. It's just cringe, but I'm like, I got to watch it. I got to look at it. It's like looking at the sun. You shouldn't do it, but it's like, but I need to. You should, it's like, I just, I'm like, I need to watch this man's sentencing. Cause every time I watch a sentencing, I think of the final judgment. Oh, yeah. This guy was a worship pastor. I don't know whether it was at a good church or not, but he was a worship pastor.

He was on American Idol. He had a, he had a wife that seemed to love him. He had two beautiful young kids. And so now, you know, he fell in love with the woman again, a lot, well, not allegedly anywhere. This is what he's been convicted by a jury of his peers. There you go. Okay. There you go. But so this guy, um, falls in love with the woman half his age and kills his wife. And I'm watching it was interesting. I, so did you receive the daughters reading the letters? Yes. So basically they don't read them, but the daughters who are like, yep, not even teenagers, yeah, have these letters read in the court system. And it basically says, you know, dad, I hope you find forgiveness in Christ. They're, it was like very gospel centered. And I pray you will, cause I guess he's never admitted actually doing this. I pray you will finally now confess your sins to Christ and be forgiven. But then it said, but dad, I want you to know, I don't plan on visiting you. And I'm like, there's so much there, like there's forgiveness, but doesn't necessarily mean I need to be hurt again, where I forgiveness doesn't mean I need to have a relationship with you. Oh, yeah. And there is the, I care about your soul. This is a couple of conversations we had about the state. Um, as an individual Christian, I care about your soul, Caleb Flynn, and as your daughter, um, and I don't know that she's consciously thinking about this. I'm just, I'm just saying this is how I experience it. But I'm also grateful for the role of the state.

Cause I love my mom who you killed. And now you will spend the rest of your life behind bars with no parole, but I hope you repent, but I also hope you face the consequences for your sin and this life. Just not in life to come. And I think I don't even know if I'm answering your original question, but this is some of the tensions that we feel in the role that the state plays. Oh, yeah. And the role of the Christian play. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit more about the death penalty. So something I've learned over the years is that college students specifically have a very tough time with the idea of the Bible being pro death penalty. But if you look to Genesis nine, we looked to this past year in 13, you know, what we can see is that there seems to be a clear ethic for the death penalty being, honestly, in many ways pro life in that it is a deterrent, which people, a hundred, some people will reject that notion, but I think that it's hard to argue that the death period, the death penalty does deter further violence. Why should Christians be at least open to the idea of the death penalty being a good thing? Well, I mean, it honors the image of God in a person. And it says that for a life that is taken, you know, for, you know, of course, there's a difference between manslaughter and second degree and first degree, but, you know, in our language for first degree, pre meditated murder of an individual, it's life for a life, you know, and now here's the thing here. I'll give you a, um, I'll start with this. Um, Boston marathon bombing. I'm going to forget all details. I didn't know we're going to talk about this. And so I don't know the details on this, but I remember that, of course, this happens in Massachusetts, Massachusetts doesn't have a death penalty.

Well, guess what they do? They go federal with it because, and I think this was under the Obama administration, maybe I can't remember, but the whole point is even the people who want to go, you know, we're kind of, no, not the death penalty. No, no, it's like, well, wait till there's a wait till the, uh, they show up and bomb at the Boston marathon. All of a sudden, everyone's like, even the people in Boston go, yeah, let's throw them federal. This is the death penalty. So I think there's part of us. Hopefully not, you know, it's like there is, well, I'll show you this. So this is verse four, the state is called an Avenger. Chapter 12 it talks about just in Romans 12 I won't find all the verse right here, but it basically talks about oh beloved verse 19 of Romans 12 beloved never avenge So he's talking to the individual. Yes Never avenge yourselves Why we'll believe it up to the wrath of God and then we're told the state is part of the way God avenges in this life No, it's not perfect. You know, this is another one of the how would we say this one of the weaknesses of the state is that when a school Shooter God forbid, but when a school shooter comes in and kills 15 kids and then shoots himself You know if you're in if you're an atheistic materialistic naturalistic person that you die and disappear It's like well justice is never served, but it's like actually we don't believe that we believe that unfortunately Human justice has failed in this situation because we couldn't get him and we can't punish him But even if and it's kind of the whole thing. It's like even if you get him. What do you get you can't give him 15 life sentences? He's only gonna live another 80 years. You can't you know, you know, so I think the death penalty so I will say on the and I think the death penalty is biblical. I am pro death penalty But I think that the Christian that was I've tried to read the other side the Christian response is But Paul firms a sword here. So I think New Testament, right? Well, he doesn't say a paddle He doesn't say a sword, but I think the the Christian evangelical Christian responses Well, don't we want to give a person as much time as possible to potentially repent and place their faith in Christ? No, I'm sympathetic to that sure, but I think that's the role of the Christian in the church and you know the way things work here is

I don't know for sure. We could look it up on the eye. It takes a while to get the death penalty I mean, so it's like you have a long and actually nothing who someone famously said Nothing will sharpen the mind like a nearing death So it's like there's it actually could be the grace of God. You're going to die in two years by by lethal injection That'll sober a person to make them try to find a chaplain or different. Oh, yeah That they can see so I think both could happen well recently in the news Chris to Pike the Tennessee I mean, this is a big deal. Oh, yeah, I mean, she was seen as to death was it 30 years ago I think like in the late 1990s complete failure of the state. Yes It's like in the weirdest way possible the state failed to kill her and so but it's but then you actually see the different domains of responsibility because now The medical community is saving her because of the hypocrite earth. Sure. It's like fine state. You messed up Okay, our job is a saver you may kill her again. Oh, yeah It's this strain you actually see what Kuiper calls fear sovereignty It's what I was trying to talk about about I didn't get into the medical community in their role But you see the state in the family in the church. Yeah, one of the things that I try to explain to college students We're never having this discussion is that we're not for the government being able to wield the the sword Punish wrongdoing then the unfortunate Reality is that individuals are going to feel the need to take justice into their own hands How do we live in a society where families aren't just taking revenge against families is because we have a system of government that We trust at least currently is going to punish wrongdoing. It's like which is way better than the alternative Which is just we're just left to sort of take care of ours like you said wild west Well, you know at the of onset one time he goes man I wish I lived back in the wild wild west he goes where I could kill a guy and then shave my beard become the sheriff and look For me for the next two decades But it's like there there is that wild wild. I mean you see the chaos Pre-flood you know you see the Kate sodoming a mora I mean you book of judges everyone done. I mean you've got you have what is it 400 years before there's a king? You know that's a whole complex thing because you know God was king and then they wanted a king, but Yeah, this state is a huge I mean that's part of what I'm not saying I did a great job But part of what I try to do rooms 13 is go listen the government is a good thing given by God none of them are perfect

They're all flawed and failing Part of what we're trying to do is go. Okay, the job of the government is to punish evil promote good I'll go back to your original question though, because I think this isn't we've been all over the place But I think it's been good What is the right role? I mean let's think about this guy I don't know if I have the right answer, but we can maybe learn together. What is the right role of a Christian's investment involvement thinking about politics. It's like well I Do think that the average Christian? Should be informed. Yes. What's going on but it but it does feel like a full-time job sometimes to be completely honest with you My community if we were talking about this last night and I said that I think that every Christian needs to have a baseline care in Concerned for the political realm in the same way that every Christian needs to care about adoption of foster care every Christian needs to care About global awestess and then just like many people have a unique burden for adoption of foster care There will be people who have a unique burden about the political sphere and trying to take their faith - No, no, so I'm just like, okay, so I'm thinking it is hard to stay informed. So I've been saying this on the podcast for years. A cheat code for me is Dr. Moller's daily briefing. No one who knows me doesn't know that. You know, he just did like a 20 minute episode on the Cornell case. Very helpful for me to understand. And he'll do that every day. He'll pick up one, two, three major events and he'll help us think through him. And I've been doing this for 15, 20 years and I think he's pretty balanced. And he'll be, he's not like super pro Trump. Like he'll say things like I voted for Trump but then he'll also say things like President Trump, you know, I remember one time he just had a whole episode

of like President Trump, like said something negative about the Constitution, he should never do that. He is under the Constitution. So like, I feel like Dr. Moller has been, in my opinion, consistent. - Sure. - There's the world and everything in it. I don't know if you know about that one. The world and everything in it, okay. It's another, it's a little more boring. It's a little more bland. It's a little more just giving you the news but from a Christian perspective. I think that's all, that's by world opinion. It's a similar thing that Dr. Moller writes for anyway. They've got a podcast. There are, of course, I think one of the things, Josh Howardton, who most of our listeners are gonna know. - Sure. - He has become unbelievably influential in a very short season of time by giving a Christian response to what's going on politically and he kind of stepped in, in my opinion, kind of right as Charlie Kirk dies. He, I'm not saying he's, you know, the second Charlie Kirk. I think Charlie Kirk was an interesting, I mean, here we are, your later time with Charlie Kirk, but Charlie Kirk, from, you know, and this is of course divisive and not everyone agrees with me on this, but like, I think he was a genuine Bible believing,

I know we're on the same page with this, but Bible believing Jesus, love in Christian, who over his life became more Christian than he was Republican and political and conservative. But early on, might have been more, in his own words, conservative than he was, and Republican, you know, kind of thing. I think, so, for example, you know, I didn't know what we were gonna talk about in this podcast, but, you know, I was looking up because I thought, well, I know we're gonna talk about some politics and everything, and I'm like, I'm liking myself. Does the average person, you know, so the average person lives next, could even ask this question. So, okay, in November, we're gonna have an election. And does the average person even know what's on the ballot? Like, do, does, and I'm not trying to patronize, speak to anyone, does, do people realize that every state has two senators, that every senator serves for six years, and that this is a year where we vote on one of our two senators who will serve our state for six years, and they have very different visions of life of flourishing. Do people realize that a North Carolina Supreme Court judge is up for election? Do they realize that we only have seven of them? So, some states have five, some states have seven, some states have nine.

Do they realize that a lot of decisions that are going to affect the life of them and their children are gonna be decided at the state level of our North Carolina Supreme Court? - Yes. - There's only seven judges we're voting on one this year. You know, it's like, and I don't mean to get to it. It's like, well, I would rather people just have the process of like, be informed. Like, you know, the shorthand for me has been, read your Bible, vote your conscience, trust God. Some version of that, and I'm not original with that. I'm not sure someone else has said that. But I think it's being biblically informed. I think there's a lot of things in which politically Christians can disagree on. Obviously. And then, I do think that there is, Jordan Peterson, who I often quote, says that when you lose the theological, in every society that loses the theological, for some reason the political takes, it collapses into the political. Nothing else. It doesn't good entertainment. Like, nothing else is quite heavy enough to handle what we lost in the political, isn't either. But the closest thing to it is the political. And so what you kind of see is the constitution becomes people's Bible.

Or some other thing, or some other document. The story becomes the story of our nation. The promised land becomes America. The president becomes the savior. I mean, I'm giving extreme examples. So we want to avoid that, but it's like, I kind of, I think it was Dr. Moller who said, what did he say? Something like salvation is not coming on Air Force One, but it matters who's on Air Force One. - That's right. - And it's that kind of, I kind of, I know we're on the same page, but I think a couple more minutes let's be helpful. Like, I think it's like, how do we say both things? It's like, dude, I know Jesus Christ is returning. I know God's in control of who's in control. But I also know that God's, here's a deep thought, God's providence is not necessarily his endorsement. Do you know, it's like, okay, yes God providentially does all things for his glory and our good. It doesn't mean it's his endorsement of every candidate that it's the best person ever in. And I think we have a role to play as what I'm trying to say. Unfortunately, Christians will retreat from the polls and sometimes they do it for various reasons Sometimes they just are apathetic sometimes their their lives are busy, which you know many of us are lives are busy Sometimes it's because they feel Like their conscience condemns them for voting anyone voting for anyone. Yeah, but the the problem with not voting I've shared this with college students over the years is that if you are a Christian and you are not voting then what you are essentially doing is you are increasing the value of the votes of

People who may not share your biblical worldview. Yes, and so we're only given so many ways for us to Use our biblical worldview to influence what is happening in society And so the Bible we would we would love for as many laws to be consistent with scripture as possible, right? You know, like we're not we're not wanting like you said you gave the different categories of yeah We don't want the church to be you know controlling the state and all those kinds of things But voting is very important because elections to stay at the obvious. It is massive consequence. It is so important I cannot even imagine I don't know what someone would have to do to me For me not to vote in November I mean like and and I'm just like it is part of it is an issue It is a huge issue of conscience for me in in the sense that as a Christian being a good citizen Which I'm supposed to do. Yeah, and and as a stewardship of the responsibility that I have and then honestly I kind of feel like and I wouldn't be this necessarily directly something that I'm like if you didn't vote I don't want to hear anything you have to say about about anything politically Because you have abdicated and abandoned yes, the only responsible that you have I think another thing we talk about though is and I don't know all the answers but what are local ways for people to get involved in politics or Just to play their role because it's kind of like part of what's happened This is a whole another episode of something sometime, but it's like we've talked about this for but with mom working full-time We have I mean mom was the backbone of all local politics and I'm talking about like the PTA and The school board and the neighborhood Association and all the things where it's like and mom had her eye on it. Mom's like that's not gonna be good for my kids that's and it's like mom's gone and The worst people show up to that a lot of times. It's like they the most I mean, you know people are possessed by two things demons and ideas You know, it's like people who are possessed by some type of goofy ideology show up And they don't have kids and they don't have it then they're just thinking about themselves and it's dangerous And so I'm like I want to get I want to empower people I just want people in our church to know like we're not trying to get Political we're trying to stay in our lane of we are theological. We tell the truth. We make disciples We administer the sacraments. We send out people on mission, but we do speak truth to power, you know

We do we do we play the prophetic function. That's right. The king Yeah, the Christian should have a prophetic voice toward the government Yes, and honor them as best we can but at the same time We still want to tell the truth with regard to all things that are happening in government Here's a question. How should Christians think about voting for candidates that may be very flawed and once we do vote Does that make us morally responsible for all the things that that candidate may or may not do after we vote for them? It's like because because no candidate is perfect obviously obviously, but we have to in many cases choose the the least of two evils And so how do Christians think about this and understand different people have different their consciences tell them different things like in it But how do we think about this? Well, I mean, I'm gonna use some lines of people I try to use too many one-liners that I think is jargon that people just say but I do think in general We are voting for a president not for a pastor, you know, and so I don't I mean as much as I would love For you know all of our political officials to meet the qualifications of first Timothy three or Titus one or something It's like I and I do think you know when I was with dr. Moller I've put him a lot today because he has a lot to say about this stuff But and I think you were in some of these rooms but at one point he said I'm Augustinian and who's like And he was giving in context and he was basically going in Augustinian person goes We have to choose the best option in a fallen world. Yes, and it's kind of like That's what you know, it's like a you know I don't know if you've heard a line from Winston Churchill the truth is so important. It must be covered in a bed of lies And it's like that's a weird. I'm not sure what to do with that Logically like we're not supposed to lie, but the truth in Churchill was talking about particularly the state and the time of war I mean these are some deep stuff So I think man Yeah, I don't think a vote for a candidate is an endorsement for everything that you do I think just talking like I really try to talk about the candidates Honestly and openly I think sure you know honest I don't listen to him a ton, but I think Ben Shapiro has been a great example of this in my people may completely disagree

that's okay. But when I listen to him, I'm like, I know who he voted for. He voted for Trump. I'm not a never Trump anymore. I'm not an always Trump. I'm a sometimes Trump He ever said yep, and then basically he just critiques it and in the same way that there's part of me that respects Bill Maher in the in a I'm trying to get both extremes Sure, cuz I feel like Bill Maher is up there going. What are we doing guys? Are we gonna just you know, he's just calling out the goofiness of the Democrat Party. Oh, yeah, and so I think we need We need to be in our own ways to go. Here's what here's why you know The honest truth is if we want to just go down to like and that's a whole another in Trump But we had office before we know it and all that but the reason that so many whenever someone's like I just can't believe a Christian could vote for Donald Trump. It's like you have to understand They were not voting for everything about Donald Trump. They don't think Donald Trump's a Christian They light his Supreme Court justice picks or they care a lot about immigration and borders It's not that they're because here's an interesting thing Larry Osborne told me There's a great line. Do you don't think I've ever told you this? He was reading Larry reads broadly and he read this amazing line about Trump and he said here's the thing about Trump The liberals take him literally but not seriously and the Republicans take him seriously but not literally That may be that's pretty spot on that's a word. Oh, yeah, and that is that describes So many people so Trump says something crazy thing eating the cats and eating the dog and and we're and you know Anybody who like you know takes Trump seriously goes? Ah, he misspoke and he's trying to be sure me whatever and the and the liberals like he's eating the dogs He's eating the cats, you know But it but it's like the the people who under the conservatives take Trump seriously But not literally and the liberals take him literally and not seriously. Oh, yeah So well you and I were together recently when a pastor with a group of pastors and a pastor was talking to a political leader And what he was encouraging him to do come on was to push back darkness as much as he can while he is in a position of influence Yes And I and I think one of the things he also said was the Christian in politics and really the Christian in any kind of aspect of life Whether it be the PTA or some higher level of leadership Christian should be thinking how can I take as much gospel as possible? You know being salt and light. It's like salt is preservative. Yes

We as Christians should do whatever we can in living in a fallen world That means things like we're not going to get all that we want all the time And that also means we're not going to have a perfect candidate Yes for many of these things But what we can do is we can read your Bible like you said Check your conscience and then vote in such a way that hopefully Culture will be preserved in a way that's hopefully consistent with biblical values And we take as much gospel ground as possible. Yeah, you know, it's interesting when I think about my heroes As a general rule there are pastors and politicians They are I've fascinated with them my whole life Winston Churchill fascinated with William Wilberforce fascinated with them Abraham Lincoln fascinated with them And so there's be some you know, but um, and I said before I like to read autobiographies and biographies on on uh on former Presidents and so here's another thing I want to read real quick. Um kind of switching so Paul says in I'll try to read this quickly in first Timothy to Paul says first of all then I referenced this text but didn't read it First of all then I urge that supplications prayers intercessions and thanksgivings to be made for all people for kings And all who are in high positions that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life godly and dignified in every way This is good and it is pleasing in the sight of god our savior who desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth So I almost feel like I feel like that's the ideal It's like what is the ideal and it's like and I'm not saying there was a perfect time in america. Okay, but It's like I don't know. Let me pick something up. You know 1955. It's like peace and christiannie could spread and it had its own problems because then people think they're christians and they're not or whatever but it's like It just depends. It's like. Yes. I want to pray For a peaceful quiet life and for the government to leave us alone and for us to keep our own lanes But then I need to realize that doesn't happen a lot And so I I want to not give up ground while we have an opportunity to say something and speak and I mean there are a lot of things going on I mean there is Immigration and its effects genuinely and people can disagree. There is the rise of islam

I mean there's a lot going on there. There are consequences for a foreign policy And I'm not saying that christians can't disagree on these things But I think the best thing that we could do is hopefully in a great church community Like I'm loving this cover. I know we're having it recorded and all that but I'm like This is the kind of stuff I want our church to be able to do I want guys to get around a bonfire and yes, I want them to talk about And yeah, Joe can talk about sports. I mean, I was just like, why not have some meaningful conversations? We've all had that before, where you're sitting around something going, we're having a conversation. Like we're, and I'm hearing some different points. And I'm hearing this Christian guy challenge me on the death penalty or challenge me on my, whatever. - Oh yeah, you mentioned the rise of Islam. And you know that Josh Howardton, among others, are talking at length about this topic. - They're very concerned. - Fairly often. - Yes. - How should Christians think about the rise of Islam? How should we think about trying to encourage our government to have values in lines with Christianity as opposed to other religions? And so talk about just how should the church relate to the government? Should we care about things like the rise of Islam? What does that mean? I mean, just, I'm just giving you lots of openings.

- No, I mean, I don't think people care about it 'til it shows up in their backyard. - Oh yeah. - So it's like, I've been to Dearborn, Michigan. I was there this summer. It's like, there are some areas. I've been to London, Stan. I mean, that's what you call it. You know, it's like, I'm seeing it happen. - Yep. - And it's like, I don't know enough about, I need to, so part of it is I need to grow up in some ways and understand Islam a little bit better. And I'm learning from Josh. - Yep. - And some other guys who are talking about this. It seems incompatible with Western civilization as I currently understand it. - Yes. - Certainly with Sharia Law. And the real, so the real debate I think among like people who Christians who are maybe in our nation as well, not just Christians, like who are confused by Islam, is they want to go, well, that's not real Islam. Like what's happening in Iran, you know, with Sharia Law since 1979. That's, here's what everyone wants to say. That's radical Islam. And you have to go, is that radical Islam or is that real Islam?

And all the guys I trust, the Dr. Molars, the Josh Howardtons, recently the Philip Anthony Mitchells, I mean, they're very, they're on the tip of the spear more than I am. They're talking to more people, they're traveling more. It seems like, I think it is something we need to be concerned about. I don't know what to do. I mean, I do believe in religious liberty. - Sure. - Okay, I mean, just to state the obvious. I think the truth will win. I think Christianity needs to be in the marketplace of ideas. It's, you know, I think there was a big, I wish we, if we had more time we could get into all this, but I think I could be wrong on this. So I'm saying that, I could be wrong on this. I think they were trying to build a big mosque in New York City, and Tim Keller was warning Christians that we should not be against it. It sounds like what Tim Keller would do. And I love Tim Keller. I'm just saying, but it comes down to like, well, we gotta be very careful because religious liberty for all means for all. And the moment we start saying you can't, so I think, I'd love to hear your thoughts 'cause maybe you've listened to that more. - Yeah, totally.

- I'm trying to think through this. - Yes, I think that we need to understand that all worldviews are not equal. - I agree with that. - All value systems are not equal. And so people like to talk about whether or not the United States is a Christian nation. Where are we found that as a Christian nation? - Yeah, I just, we can sort of disagree on that, but something that we must agree on is that the pool that the founding fathers were swimming in was a Christian culture. - Yes. - Much of what they wrote was with an understanding of all of this is being rooted in a culture that is holding to Christian values. The overwhelming majority of our found fathers. - No, there was no other view except for Christianity and enlightenment. - That's right. Most of the founding fathers were Protestants. - Yeah. - Like like 80, 90% of the, I don't know if I said this in. I think I said this in one of the messages. Nine of the 13 original colonies had a religious test for office. - Yes, I think I've heard you say that before. But I think that we just have to understand, like I said, all worldviews are not equal. And these worldviews are clashing.

- They are. - There is a clash between Judeo-Christian values in the West. - Yes. - And the values of what I would describe as just the average person that holds to Islam values, Sharia law in the Middle East. There is a clash, they're incompatible. - I agree. - And so, you know, when it comes to like religious liberty, it's like, yes, I believe that the Christian understanding is that we want religious liberty for all people. At the same time, we also would like for the government to promote, maybe promote, it's not the right word. Although, Josh Howardton would probably say promote the one true religion, which is biblical Christianity. We're getting close to election season. Maybe we can end our time with you offering a warning and an encouragement to people as we're approaching this election season. So what is one thing that people should avoid doing in this election season? And then what is an encouragement to Christians in this election season? Anything come to mind? - I mean, we've kind of talked about it. I mean, I think figuring out how to be informed is a huge thing. Like, two ways. I think we're trying as a church to go, okay, what does the Bible say? And so about,

So that's part of being informed. The other part of being informed is like, I would say, man, if you're 18 years in order, I'd say, I hope you are informed about the, I don't know the exact amount of people, but the six different major things. For example, here's a great example. Two of the things that are voted on, there's like two, three effort they're called, like three different motions that will be voted on in November, two of them have to a taxes. It's like, okay, well, here we just read Romans 13, pay your taxes. Unbelievable. We have the ability to vote on what could happen with our taxes. It's like the average person in North Carolina probably has no idea that that's happening. And then we mentioned some of the other things. So I think, I think being informed what does the Bible say? And then my encouragement would be vote. I mean, we didn't put this whole podcast together just to get people to vote, vote, vote, vote, vote, vote, vote, but it's like that, you know, but I do, I'm, I'm serious, man. I mean, you know, Josh Howerton has been very clear, and I think he's right, that there are millions of Christians who just don't vote, and then elections are decided by 300,000 votes or 400,000 votes. And then it gets a lot harder for Christians to live and share their faith and have religious liberty because somebody didn't want to get up and go vote or they didn't want to be seen as political. I don't, I don't know what it is. So I just think, man, I, my conscience is completely clear and, uh, I don't know what their word is, clear is right, but like, um, captive, it's captive to like, I have to, it doesn't matter where I do. I've been in China before during, during, during, I was there in China during the, uh, I think it was the Obama Romney election or whatever it was. It's like, dude, I'm not not voting in that thing. It's like, so I got to figure it out. I got to get the absentee ballot. I got to send it in early. It's like, I can't spend four years having an opinion about something that I never even voted in. So I can't even think there might be a reason, but I cannot think of a good reason that a Christian, can you think of a good reason that a Christian won vote? No, I'm just trying to be honest. No, I'm not saying that a Christian couldn't be, like, because one of the questions you could ask, I know we got to end, is, is it a sin? Let me ask you it. What do you think? Is it a sin not to vote? I think it's an abdication of responsibility. I think it's, I think it's poor stewardship. Yes. Now, is it a sin? Does it displease God to not vote? Maybe. We've been, we've been getting this stewardship. I mean, maybe, I didn't mean overly, I don't know the answer myself, but I'm like, we just have people stand up on Sunday. They don't vote. Stand up. We're going to pray for you. We're going to just come forward, come forward if you didn't vote. Jim, stand up with you. So, man, I want to just add my saying, I think we have an incredible, I mean, I genuinely love our country. I think a good way to, maybe way to end in kind of a, a, I should have said this at the beginning, and if someone stayed to the end to listen to this, hopefully they'll hear this, but I think it comes to the end of the day of like our allegiance is to Jesus Christ. Yes. Nobody else gets the allegiance of our heart. And at the same time, and I am a Christian first, I am an American second, but man, I have, just like you, I've been all over the world, dude. And I have gotten home from Israel or China or Africa or India, all those places. And I'm like, get me home. And I am so grateful to be on American soil. I am so grateful for the Constitution. I am so grateful for freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly. I mean, it is so, I am so grateful for the Supreme Court, the checks and balances, the rule of law, innocent until proven guilty, a jury of your peers. And the honest truth is, and Dr. Mueller says this all the time, it is Athens, it is Rome, and it is Jerusalem. It is all three, it is the deep Christian influence. Yes, it is also Rome. Yes, it is also Greece, but we owe so much of the understanding of how our nation even run, the checks and balances to a primarily Christian worldview. That's like, I'll end with this. You know, I told you, I said on Sunday, I took a under one of the best scholars in the United States. It took a semester-long class on Christian and the founding of the nation. It's complex. Not everybody was a Christian, obviously. A lot of them were. But it is very clear that this nation was founded for Christianity to run free. Yes. And for there to be worship and for people to express their Christian faith publicly. No question.

Yes, yes. My final encouragement to the few people who are still listening. Yes, both of them. Thank you for being here. My final encouragement, I heard this years ago, never make the political personal. I think that's such a helpful word of encouragement. There will be people in your life that you love that may disagree with you politically. Never make those political disagreements personal. That's good. We should still, as Christians, love on those people, be gracious toward them. And then the second increase. and receive these election results with lots of humility. And what I mean by that is we don't know all the effects of how each individual election result is going to actually pan out. We don't know what they all mean. It might, the pendulum might swing one way and that might make things more likely to swing very strongly in the other way. And so I think that just trusting the providence of God, trusting His goodness, remembering, like you said, that we are Christians first before we are Americans, but then stewarding our votes well in the meantime. So Pascal, appreciate your time. - Glad to be here, thanks. - Thanks for tuning in to Open Bible Open Life with Pastor Kyle Mercer. We'll be back every week with new conversations, so make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.