The Dumbest Statement in All of Christianity | Spiritual Leadership Podcast with Landon Schott & Mike Signorelli

I'm just gonna, I'm gonna be that guy right now. When you first got saved, there was no seatbelt. The only way I've succeeded in ministry is taking the seatbelt off. I have to be willing to go through the windshield. The windshield is carnality, the windshield is the flesh, the windshield is my emotions. We actually need to take the seatbelt off and crash all the way through that car and die to self. I am the crash test dummy. The problem with the American church is not its passion. It's not that it's so out of control, like we need to tame this thing down. Their interpretation of a spirit moving is singing K-lub songs. And if you clap to close every song at your church, like that's a sign. I'm always gonna beg you to go there. Can I confess a sin on your podcast? That's gonna make the intro real for sure. So you want to get in trouble together right now. Let's do it. Being spirit filled with the seatbelt is not the way to go. Today I'm talking to a church planter that did everything wrong but had the spirit of God lead him and that's what made it right. He's gone from one campus to seven campuses and is turning cities upside down. I'm Landon Shot, this is spiritual leadership. We're helping leaders become spiritual leaders. Let's get after it. [music] Mike Singarelli is the founding lead pastor of V1 Church with his wife Julie. V1 means no turning back, a church that's built on a radical commitment to Jesus. He's the director of the Domino Revival, a film of breaking generational curses and bondages.

He is a dynamic minister, pastor, father, leader. It's good to have Mike Singarelli with us today. But when you were talking about not wanting to be the guy that says I'm the only one, even in DFW, we're in the Bible Belt. And if you want to count spirit filled churches, not just theology, but practice, like you're talking about a handful in DFW that will speak in tongues in a church service. Not afraid. Do you guys speak in tongues in church services? Yes. I'll do it on the podcast if you want to. Let's do it. Let's take the seatbelt off. So I have a rule for it though. You can't speak in tongues publicly without quoting Jude 120. Come on. So Jude 120 says, "And build yourselves up in the most holy faith by praying in the spirit." And so I've done teachings on this before, on this podcast in our church, that the problem is it's bad theology where people say you can't do it in a church service without interpreter. But that's not true. You can't speak in tongues. We can't prophesy in tongues without interpreter. But when you're using your prayer language, that's different. Absolutely. But it'd be the same thing if someone tried to hijack the church by preaching their own sermon or singing their own song or anything that you're doing to take attention. So I say the church all the time, the worst thing that you can do is take attention on yourself. The best thing you do is give attention to God. So for speaking in tongues corporately, nobody's prophesying in tongues, but we're all using our prayer language.

That's in order. Yeah. So the whole purpose of that was to bring order. That's it. But there's many different things you could do out of order besides that it's not just speaking in tongues. Right. How do you interpret that? Okay. So well, first of all, go to Southeast Asia and preach to some of the churches that I preach at with 20,000, 30,000 people roaring in tongues collectively. I think this is a uniquely like American or North American problem. Like I don't see as much resistance globally to speaking in tongues corporately because I travel a lot overseas. There's not enough persecution in America yet. Right. Yeah. Well, you know how it is. And so Jude 120, I think matters. The other thing I said, I had a clip that went semi viral in the theological circles because what I said was when you add in the context of us having a microphone and being able to preside over a group of people through a sound system and that keeping order, then that fulfills the prescription for order, if you know what I'm saying? And so like in the ancient world without a PA system and a microphone, you didn't necessarily have the ability because you're all speaking at relatively the same volume. And so there's some different qualifications for how you do things based on the environment, the technological aspects of it. And so I was just trying to complicate it, you know, speaking of complication, I think that I think people are theologically lazy. And of course, and when Paul's talking about in Corinthians, don't speak in tongues unless

there is a word of edification and he goes on this list of stuff, I don't think people wait long enough for the, for the, for the edification to come, for the word of wisdom, knowledge, revelation to come. And so I would say that most people are lazy and they don't push in long enough or deep So for example, a lot of times, I would say this at the same time, it also drives me nuts when people are spiritually lazy and they speak in tongues at the wrong time, where like, I've been in church services and it's like a car accident, you're like, ah, like, it's like someone trying to kiss you on the first date when they just meet you. I'm like, I don't know you. I don't want your lips on me. That's weird. Yeah. And so when you don't realize the purpose of it or the timing of it, it's awkward. Yeah. So we never talked about this before. I didn't tell you what we were talking about, but, but so I would say the purpose of it, how I would articulate it is moments of warfare. So like there'll be times where I'm preaching and I'll feel witchcraft. Yeah. So rush of anxiety, I'll lose train of thoughts, like a lot of times it's in your mind, like you feel confusion. Yeah. So God's not the author of confusion. And you start feeling this confusion moments. I'm like, oh, there's witchcraft in the room. We've had times where there's been voodoo dolls left in chairs in the balcony in these moments where I felt this. Yeah. If you've got a prayer language, praying the Holy Ghost other times on like the verge of breakthrough where like you feel like there's this spiritual synergy in the room and we're

on the verge of breakthrough. And when people praying the Holy Ghost, it's like this rush that comes. And then the third time I would say is when I don't know what to do, yeah, and there's these moments where I'm not going to make it up. I'm not going to come up with something. There's no power in that. Yeah. And so there's be these moments where I'm like, hey, let's pray in the Holy Ghost. And it's at peace. It's in unity. It's not out of order. And then all of a sudden like boom, like the Holy Spirit's just bringing into my mind instructions things to do. Those are times I notice it. When do you notice it's most beneficial in services? Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm a big proponent of speaking in tongues. And let me just say this and I hope this doesn't come out mean spirited because my hope would be that there would be pastors watching this, that this would be an invitation, right? My intention isn't to like offend anybody with what I'm about to say, but pastors don't demonstrate on stage what they don't demonstrate off stage. Good. They don't do in church, what they don't do outside of church. In other words, for me, I'm going to speak in tongues on a microphone because I speak in tongues significantly longer and more off that stage. It's just, it's an identity level thing, right? And so same thing with deliverance and casting out demons, like they're just pastors that because they don't cast out demons and never have cast out demons or it happened a few times here and there. Well, their church is a reflection of them.

That's the, you know, leadership is impartation. Like I don't ever ask my church to evangelize more. I go into the streets of New York City and I evangelize more. And then the evangelism increases in our house. So I think when you talk about tongues, there's, there's an impartation level from the senior leader where it's who it has to be an identity thing. And so for me, I pray in the spirit, I will say this just to go a little bit more specific. I have a view of tongues being like a Holy Spirit encryption, you know, because there's the tongues of angels. There's the tongues of men. We know this biblically. And so I think there's times where the Holy Spirit's giving you information and there's a communication through encryption. And I think that that prophecy and even the interpretation of it could be like giving access to whatever that mystery is and speaking it. But there's other times. All those revelations that come. I would put that in that category. Yeah. That's it. It's, but it's, it's multi dimensional, right? Because there will be times where you're praying in tongues, like I'll give you an example. One of my worship leaders was singing in tongues next to me. And I couldn't hear because the monitor wasn't on. So I thought that he was singing in Spanish because he's Hispanic. So I just assumed, oh, we're switching from English to Spanish because we do that. And when it was all over, he goes, man, Pastor Mike, thank you so much for letting me sing in tongues from stage. I've never done that before. And I said, EJ, I thought you were singing, I thought you were singing in Spanish, bro.

At the same time, his sister texted him and said, when did you learn Portuguese? Wow. I was just watching the V one church live stream and you were singing in Portuguese. He's like, I thought I was singing in tongues. But it, of course, was the tongues of men. And she said, you were singing the phrase, I give all my adoration to you. Beautiful. So it's like in that way, there was a dimension of worship he was entering into that was a spiritual worship. That's another theological land mind for people to unpack because the Bible says to pray in the spirit, to sing in the spirit. So how do you factor in you can't speak in tongues on stage when you're singing in the spirit, right? When you don't need interpretation to sing in the spirit. Here's what it is. People are always like, well, aren't you afraid your church is going to go into chaos? Do you really trust your leaders? And I tell them, I'm like, it's not that I trust my leaders, it's that I trust the same Holy spirit in me is the same Holy spirit in them. And if I trust the Holy spirit, then I will trust us in unity with the Holy spirit. Does that make sense? And let me explain why because like I'm known as someone who is extremely demonstrative in the gifts, and our church, you know, for we hit a lot of the megachurch metrics. So I confuse people, right? Because they're just like, you're not like the megachurch guys in that way, because you're more like a revivalist. But I try to explain to them your engine, like we have this triumph, right?

That engine is a controlled explosion. Like that's what's happening is that gasoline is being sprayed into the pistons and it's perpetually being ignited by a flame that's exploding and that's moving the pistons through a controlled explosion. I think the design for the church is supposed to be a controlled explosion, like an engine. And I think that when people are like, oh, it's gonna get, you know, too chaotic, it's gonna get too crazy. It's like, well, you would have never invented the engine. - With someone that says it could be too chaotic, you've exposed yourself that you're not a spiritual leader. And here's what I mean by that. - Yeah, come on. - I was at my son's junior high football game yesterday. And I'm talking with another dad and we're talking about his son. And his son's a pretty self-motivated sure of himself kid. - Yeah. - Okay, so like the kid's cocky, okay? And the dad brings up that his son's pretty cocky. And I was like, whoa, whoa. I was like, I'll take that every day of the week. I would rather teach someone humility. I'd rather teach them to put governors on than try to motivate and passion. So the person saying, like, I don't want it to get out of control. Like the problem with the American church is not its passion.

It's not that it's so out of control. Like we need to tame this thing down, right? You know, one of my favorite things my dad used to say is, you know, you could put the fire out if you could start it again. And you got these people that don't have God moving in their spirit and their services. Or like their interpretation of a spirit moving is singing Caleb songs. And you got a four minute service. Like if you clap to close every song at your church, like that's a sign that the spirit may not be flowing the way it should if your transitions are claps. And so I'm not being ugly. What I am saying is there's more. There's more to it. And what I would encourage these pastors and leaders is, is let the Holy Spirit invade your services. Let them invade your sermons. Let them invade. Like you're so worried about control that you become control lean. - Yeah, there is one way to God and it's through Jesus. But in Jesus, there are many ways to connect with him. You can commune with him while creating, denying your flesh and feeding your spirit, ministering to his heart through adoration, meditating on his scripture, getting alone to be with him, meeting him in creation. Asking him questions and listening for his response,

learning something new about him, moving into an encounter with him, making the crooked wave straight, serving his people and remembering what he has done. Your daily personal encounters with God change everything. Discover how you connect with God, texting counter to 590-90 to take your assessment today. - I would, like one of the things, the statements I hate absolute most in all of Christianity is people are like, I'm Holy Spirit with the seat belt. I'm always gonna beg you to go there. So you wanna get in trouble together right now. - Let's do it. You're way more well-known than me. You'll get way more than me. - But like that statement is so stupid. - Yeah. - And what it does is it tells me, you don't know him like I know him. - Right. - Because the more I'm with them, the more I wanna be with them. And there's a difference between people being out of control and weird on their own. These are people that are, now, mind these are the same guys that paint their chest when they go to football games and they're overweight, screaming and yelling, acting a fool in all of these. You have to fool when your stocks are going up and down.

But when it comes into relationship with God, all of a sudden, I mess with these guys in my church. They're like, you could press 300 pounds, but you can't fast three days. - Yeah, yeah. - And so like there's something off in your spiritual leadership, when you don't have a gear. This is funny, it's so funny. So a pastor friend of mine who's one of the most like alpha males I've ever met in my life, I challenged him one day. I was like, I can't figure out, how are you as an alpha male in every area of your life? But when it comes to spirituality and the gifts of the spirit, you're a wimp. - Bingo. - And like you hear guys say this, and they think they're smart when they're saying it. They're like, well, I just figured if the Holy Spirit wanted to give me something, he would give it to me. I'm like, do you do that in business? Do you do that with your wife? Do you do that with anything else that you go after? So it's only the Holy Spirit you become a pacifist? - Yeah. - Like it exposes, this is spiritual something's off because you change when it comes to your relationship with the Holy Spirit.

friends that say, well, you know, I believe in the gifts of the spirit with a seatbelt. So the question that I ask myself is, what do I think they mean? And I'm just going to, I'm going to be that guy right now. And I'm, for those of you watching that know me, I'm saying this to love in love to you. What I think that they are really doing in my heart of hearts as somebody, I'm in my 20th year of ministry. I pastor a lot of people. You and I have sat across from thousands of people in pastoral counseling sessions. And what that did is it gives us a barometer for truth, right? Like you and I know when people are lying to us because they tell us their darkest secrets and pastoral counseling sessions. So the more you spend time with humans that just tell you what they really think and feel, you start getting a more accurate discernment, right? Does that make sense? So when, when I have people in front of me who I know speak in tongues, who I know believe in prophecy, but they make a statement like, you know, I just, I just, I believe in it with a seatbelt on what I honestly think is they are picturing the face or faces of people that they care about their opinions. Good. I don't think it has anything to do with the Holy Spirit. They didn't consult the Holy Spirit. Do you want me to have the seatbelt on or not? What do you want me to do? Do you want me to speak in tongues? Do you want me to prophesy and instead of being orientated this way, they're literally thinking of the faces and the people that they want to think that they're into intellectual, intelligent and they're, they're posturing themselves in such a way, we're like, well, I'm not one of those guys. Yeah. And which in and of itself is divisive. Let me just say this. When I met my wife and when you're in the, the throes of that initial relationship, you take the seatbelt off emotionally, physically, mentally like that, that is, and I think about this whole concept of this, this I have against you that you have forgotten your first love. And so when you first got saved, there was no seatbelt. You know what I mean? You were like, God, whatever you have for me, that's what I want, whatever you want me to do, that's what I'll do. But it's people pleasing. And I think what me and you have in common is that we just have decided we are not going to be people pleasers. You know what I mean? James, there's an aspect of that. If I'm still trying to win the approval of men, I'm not a servant of Christ. Yeah. I'm reminded as you're talking of Paul, of Saul losing the anointing. Yeah. And he loses the anointing because he's what? Afraid of the people? Yes. And the moment he chooses pleasing people over obeying or pleasing the Lord, it's the moment he loses anoint. Well, can I just say this? So here's the problem with trying to work yourself into the upper echelon of intelligentsia is that those people hate even

each other. Those people eat each other alive. So you could say, well, I'm a reform charismatic. Oh, I'm like, I'm a theologian. But you don't understand, even in the gospel coalition, it's like a gangster. It's like a West Coast East Coast, like rap battle in there. Like, you can know I'm saying like you have like 75 year old white guys that are taking shots at each other. They got the theology of grace without the practice of grace. Yes. And it's this thing where it's like the people that you, when you made the seatbelt statement, the people you are imagining here, you say that, that think you're more intelligent, they actually don't. And as a matter of fact, you're, you already lost whatever you're trying to win with them. And I think for me, the reason why I've, I've been so openly demonstrative is number one, the power of I'm not going to ever repent or apologize for the power of God on display. Because it's, it's literally the foolish things of the world that can found the wise. It's like when I'm, I'll give you an example. I have a multi site church where I preach from one campus and it streams into all the campuses. I will get into a prophetic flow while I'm preaching where it feels like I have a apple VR headset on and I can look into the campuses. And people are going to think I'm crazy for even saying this, but I, I kid you not. I was, it felt like I was in Long Island. And I felt like I could look into the Brooklyn campus. And I just saw gang member. So I start saying like, Hey, and there's this Latin king and he came and blah, blah, blah, blah. I get off the stage and I administer the thing. You need to surrender your life to Christ. blah, blah, blah. What my pastor at that location was like, bro, well, he didn't call me bro, but it was like, you know, pastor Mike, I was sitting next to the guy. There's no way you could have known. No one told you ahead of time, but I'm sitting next to a Latin king gang member in that service. And, and it was like, you look through that screen and said, I just, I feel like he's there. I feel like my point is this. Um, the only way I've succeeded in ministry is taking the seatbelt off. I am the crash test dummy. I have to be willing to go through the windshield. The windshield is carnality. The windshield is the flesh. The windshield is my emotions. The windshield is my mind. You get what I'm saying? Like, like, we actually need to take the seatbelt off and crash all the way through that car and die to self. It's the same people that are saying, I don't want to be over spiritual. Again, the problem of the Church of America

is not its over spirituality. That is not the number one thing that we're facing. - Ministry was never meant to be done alone. The presence-driven church network exists to equip senior leaders and their teams to lead presence-driven churches. A presence-driven church is one that is built around the presence of God and has a defined, healthy culture that pleases the Lord. Our network offers relational and spiritual leadership for the lead pastor and their spouse, as well as community with other network pastors. We help develop and implement a healthy culture for you and your church. We help equip your church in outreach and discipleship of new believers, as well as provide a membership platform that assimilates new members and equips them in their own daily personal encounter. If you're interested in learning more about the network or how to join text network to 590. - So what would Mike Singarelli say to the pastor who's like the Nick at Night Nicodemus? - Yeah. - Where they're DMing you. - Yeah, it happens a lot. - They're coming to conferences where they want more of it but they're afraid to speak in tongues with their elders. They're afraid to do it at church services. They're nervous about... So how does someone go from the seat belt statement,

you're thinking about other people to really breaking free and leading at a higher level? - So I want to shout out Jonathan Pecluda. Do you know him? - I do, don't. - Have you ever met him? - I've met him a few times. - We kind of had an argument in the DMs years ago and to be honest with you, I don't even remember what it was all about but it was like we were chest pumping a little bit. You know, you talking about alpha males like me and... Now he's much bigger than me. (laughing) You know, I still try. So we were chest pumping a little bit. Then all of a sudden he reaches out a couple years later and he's like, we need to talk. And of course he released a book about it and it's a great book about spiritual warfare. His best friend was on a golf course with him and they started talking about the demonic and his best friend, a born-again believer, somebody that they've co-labored, they've done life together for years and years, starts manifesting a demon on this golf course and Jonathan casts the demon out of him and then essentially he's like, "I need to talk to my cow." (laughing)

You know, and we did a great stream on my channel about this and it was a cool reconciliation moment between us. But I guess here's the thing to the Nicodemus, to the person who's like, I know there's more but I don't know what that looks like. I believe that God will bring these sovereign invitations and you just have to say yes and walk through those doors. You know, my mother, the way that she received the baptism of the Holy Spirit is that she went to a Catholic church. She thought she was gonna be a nun, which my mom ended up having five kids. She would have been the worst nun ever. (laughing) But then she ended up transitioning to a Nazarene church and what she started reading the Bible for herself, she was leading worship on her youth, Nazarene church worship team and she got to acts where they're in one mind and one accord then the Holy Spirit enters the earth and they begin to speak in tongues. And so she asked her youth pastor, why are we not doing this in our church? And he said, man, that's above my pay grade. You got to go talk to the lead pastor. I don't have a good explanation. So she sits across from the lead pastor as a teenager. This is my mother's story and said, I just read about this and acts and then it keeps happening.

It's not a one time thing. So why are we not doing this? And he said, well, you know, those were signs to the first century believers and they have ceased in like frequency to the point where they don't happen anymore. Classic cessationist statement, right? And so one of the best decisions my mother ever made was to not believe that lead pastor. She went home that night and she started playing her piano. My mom's side of the family's from West Virginia. So it's like, you know, honky talk, you know. And so she's playing this piano and she's worshiping and she's like, it makes me emotionally be saying it. She's like, I believe. I don't know what this is by a lead and the way my mom always tells the story is it's like a bolt of lightning struck her. And her head went back and she just started speaking in tongues. Now her stepdad was passed out drunk in the other room. Her mom was drinking a beer, getting drunk and her mom came over, be quiet. You're going to wake your stepdad up. You know, and she was like, I can't stop. I can't stop. So Pentecost entered my family in a living room with an alcoholic stepdad passed out in the other bedroom and her mom getting drunk because a teenager was like, I don't believe this pastor. And so I think that if I could say anything,

like the update on that story is I was preaching that story a couple of years ago, not knowing He reached out to me and he said, he goes, I had tears streaming down my face, watching your livestream. And I didn't even know the man, he reached out through my website. And he said, I'm filled with the Holy Spirit. I have the gift of tongues. I believe in prophecy. I believe in all the gifts of the Spirit. And yet I haven't stepped into it 'cause I know what it would mean. Like a divorce from my denomination. But I watch you every week. And he said, when you said that, I was like, it's time. That dude literally went back to his church, led that whole Nazarene church through baptism of the Holy Spirit moment, the whole place went up. Of course, he got kicked out of the denomination and he suffered as a result of that, but he celebrated that suffering. And so I just wanted to share some stories because from Jonathan Pukluda, the Nazarene pastor, it's like, yeah, we lose some, but we win them too. And it's just sovereign. - As you're telling this story about your mom, I had the thought, I find it interesting how many guys that are against being filled with the Holy Spirit, but they're pro-drinking cultures.

It always goes hand in hand. - And so you can be drunk with wine, but you can't be filled with the Spirit. - Come on, please. - I find it interesting that that seems to be a pattern over and over and over. And so you got this pastor who's listening to us right now, he's on the fence one more time. What piece of advice would you give that guy who's got to practically make a decision how he's gonna lead? - Yeah, it's gonna come down to do you fear the Lord or do you fear man? So if you're getting paid through a denominational structure and you know that you're compromised, you know that you're not operating the fullness of what's available to believers, then that's between you and God. And I fear God. And I think what was shocking to me when I first planted my church, we were coming up on 10 years now, is being in New York City, meeting people who claimed to be Presbyterian, but were more Pentecostal, claimed to be Methodist, claimed to, and I would be like, but why? And I realized like some people do ministry for the income and some do it for the outcome. - Wow.

- And it was like, for me, I was just like, you can't pay, my theology's not for sale. I don't want your checks. Matter of fact, I sold my house, cashed out my retirement and just downsized to a 600 square foot apartment. I'm fearless. And it's like when Jesus told the rich young ruler, like, well, go sell all your stuff. It wasn't because we shouldn't have stuff. It was that the stuff had him. And so like, I think there's a lot of idolatrous pastors that are afraid to lose it all, but when you lose your life, that's when you find it. And so I think me and you, what we have in common is like, people will never know the depths of sacrifice. I just hear little three minute bits of your story when we hang out and I'm like, yeah, before it was ripped out of our hands, we gave it, right? Because even the pastor that's clutching onto the denominational affiliation, they're clutching onto their house, they're clutching onto that paycheck that gets printed, you know, it's gonna be ripped out of your hand one day, anyways. - And the guys that are spiritually dangerous so the guys have nothing to lose. - Oh man, I'm in zombie mode. You can't kill me twice. Like, come on now.

- I've found something that I've wrestled with quite a bit is the more the church grows, the more people try to change you. - Yeah, oh man. - And no matter what, I'm not saying you don't scale, I'm not saying that there's not moves that have to happen based on what God does and how things grow, but I'm saying at the core of who you are, you start listening to different voices, you start listening to lawyers, you start listening to consultants, and then it becomes about building or managing or a business instead of the altar that God originally built. And so the man that you were to get there now changes and now you can't sustain it anymore because during wartime, you stayed home. - Yeah, yeah. Can I confess a sin on your podcast? (both laughing) Yeah, that's gonna make the intro real for sure. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know how to cook. So let me confess a sin. So when I first moved to New York, we had 18 people in the church and I led all 18 of them to Christ, myself. So I was probably one of the weirdest church planners because my whole launch team, I led to Christ, myself. There was no transfer growth. It was a Greek Orthodox Catholic, Hindus, there was a Jew.

I mean, it was a former atheist. Like the craziest, like I call them like the Mighty Ducks. Like the team you're not supposed to win the championship with. You're like, this is the worst team ever to start a church with in New York City. And at the time, Hillsong was multi-site. They were just dominating New York City. You had C3NYC, you know, you had all these like millennial churches that were just exploding. And so here comes me into the city with these. - Mighty Ducks? - Yeah, with the Mighty Ducks, man. And I was like, and every single. the finances went down. And it was like the money we were taking in versus the money that required for bills. And I'm talking minimal bills, but I just, and I'm trying to get biblical stewardship into them or whatever. Well, I started thinking about the, and he's a friend of mine, so if he's watching, like this is, I'm not, it's not shots fired, but the Chris Hodges arc world, 'cause he's Chris is a brilliant leader, you know? And I actually got to quarterback this with him, which I'll tag it back so, so we'll hang on. But I started thinking about that whole like arc world, and I was like, you know what I need to do? I need to be like a professional church planner.

I need to just dial all the systems and, 'cause my mind, I tell everybody, I have like a hybrid brain, you know? And so I was like, I just need to lean into that side, whatever, and we started doing that. And I kid you not, it was like every week, lower and lower and lower. And then finally, I got deeply convicted, and I was like, this is not what the Lord told me to do. This is not who I am. I'm not Hillsong. I'm not Church of the Highlands. Like I got to be, and I, so we were doing a volunteer huddle before service. So service hadn't even started. I was like, if you haven't been baptized in the Holy Spirit, just raise your hand. Everybody raised their hand. And now I'm convicted, 'cause I'm like, I've been passing this church for six months, and zero of our volunteers have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. And I said, okay, line up. And I just, I gave them a brief explanation of what it is, biblically, and just start laying hands. They all start speaking in tongues, falling out, whatever, I mean. I just feel it now, even talking about, it was like the power got hit the place, the 9 a.m. service starts.

We came and start the service. People start coming and boom, and I'm talking the church just starts rising. So it was like when I killed the idolatry of the church growth guru strategies, the idolatry of even leadership. 'Cause when you think about biblical leadership, it's like sometimes what biblical leadership looks like is God asking you to do the most asinine, weird, stupid thing ever. And that's what actually works. And so when I killed all that, our church just started, I mean, and I started giving words of knowledge and prophecy and activating people and training people and then the church just kept growing. And what's funny is then it eventually turned into a multi-site national church. And full circle moment, Chris Hodges asked me, "Will you come teach at highlands?" And I'm like, yeah, sure. So I do my best John Maxwell impression. I have my, is it a true story? I have my blazer on. And I even told him, like, give me a high top table and give me a chair. Like I'm not even gonna stand up because I know I'll go straight like Pentecostal and like I gotta be good. Landon, I'm telling you, I get done with that sermon.

Is it that bad? No, all I did was pray the sermon out. And like 300 people come running towards the front, shaking, crying. That's cool. And I go to lunch with Chris and I was like, I am so sorry. I know you'll never invite me back. I was like, I know you believe in Pentecost. He has spirit filled, you know, lineage. But I said, I didn't wanna disrupt. And he's just, Mike, I'm gonna stop you right there. It's on your life. When it's real, it's real. And he's like, I wanted to tell you something. He goes, I believe that there's a few men in this generation and your generation that are destined to make the new model. And what me and Dino and all those guys did, we had our time, but I believe it's your time and you're building a new model. And he was like, I think it's a good thing that you didn't do my model because you had to find your own. And it kind of felt like going to Wizard of Oz. You know, you get all the way to Oz and you're like, now I'm the multi-site national church planner and I'm at Highlands. And he's telling me like, hey, thank God you didn't do Highlands 'cause like you did

what God told you to do. And that was the right thing. And I was like, it's kind of like when you're the cowardly line and then like, well, you thought you were cowardly, but you always had a heart. And I think that's been my journey in all humility. That's been my journey, you know? And so I think when that's why I tried to temper back what I said 'cause I can throw knives on podcasts. And like, but I have so many cessationist friends that I'm like, man, I wanna be salt to them because I feel them, they're yearning for more. And I love about your ministry and your church. And I'm not just saying this 'cause I'm in your world and I wanna ride your motorcycle. But is that you are, because you're unapologetic, over time the conditions externally get worse and worse and it gets darker and darker. And that lampstand ministry that Mercy Culture has, it's starting to norm. It's like when you think about the wise virgins, they all have lamps, they all have oil, they're all virgins. The only difference is the wise have more oil. So before the nighttime comes, it almost looks foolish. Why would you carry that much oil? You're doing too much. Think about the revelation. It's like you're doing too much. You're, it's over the top.

Why would you carry all that oil? Like, we got sufficient oil. What we're doing is enough. Our worship services are enough. Because you don't need to do all that, and they look at me and you with buckets full of oil, like why are you doing all that, man? And I'm telling you this, Landon, I'm speaking unto this spirit, 'cause I got chills all over me. The darker it gets, the more sense our ministries are gonna make. Like the dark, because they're gonna look at our buckets of oil, and they're gonna be like, "Man, it's been the nighttime for a long time." And our lamps went out a long time ago, and we've been shivering in the cold, and we've been isolated alone, and there's Mike and Landon just still blazing. So my encouragement, same thing with New York City, at the time I showed up with Carl and all those guys, it didn't make sense to talk about Islam at that moment. So when I would, I looked crazy. It didn't make sense to talk about LGBTQ+ the way I did, because everybody was, you know, like, it was this philosophical, moral, moral, yeah, moral relativistic, you know, like, I'm just gonna love them a lot. It's like, that didn't work, by the way. Oh, of course.

Meanwhile, drag queens were literally, we were doing funerals for drag queens personas. Like in that era, I kid you not, box is full of makeup and wigs and all this stuff, doing funerals for drag queens while all that, and everybody was like, "I feel like Mike's homophobic. I feel like this." Well, tell the trans person who's no longer trans. Tell the guy, like, I had a Lazarus, you know? It's like, I believe, here's your resurrection power proof. Here's all the gay men who've been married for the last five years in our church to a woman, because it, because they needed deliverance, they needed healing at work. My point is things will make more sense the longer we journey through this night. It'll be vindicating. Well, 10 years in, seven campuses, if you are coaching you 10 years ago, what are you saying? I've thought about this. I'm gonna, I would, I'm gonna repeat what one of my mentors told me. His name was Tim Keller, and he was a cessationist and did not believe in female preachers and pastors, you know? And of course, he was wrong, you know? It's incredibly intelligent, but wrong. But I remember what Tim Keller and his team had us do an exercise one day in this cohort that I was in. So I'm in New York City. I started this cohort with about 40 church planners.

In two years, I was one of four left. 'Cause New York City is like the Vietnam of, you know, I'm like Lieutenant Dan, you know, like I'm missing my legs, you know what I mean? And I'm like, that guy's like, I don't know how I've survived this long in the city. And so anyways, two years in, he goes, I want us to do an exercise, close your eyes. And I want you to imagine yourself not being the lead pastor of your church. And I got, you know, this is the Sicilian side of me. I got enraged. 'Cause I'm like, I've given everything to be the pastor of this church. I've, you know, and two years in, we're just starting to go multi-site. Things are like blossoming. And so he's like, no, no, everyone do this. And, you know, imagine yourself not being the lead pastor of your church and just kept drilling that. The revelation he gave afterwards is like, if you can't do it or you won't do it or there's anything in you that flinches, it's exposing the idolatry that you have around that position. And he was like, are you a lead pastor or are you a son who's serving as a lead pastor? It's just like how people put identity and worship leader. Like, are you a worship leader or are you a daughter who leads worship?

Are you a preacher or are you a son who preaches? And if your eternal identity is in the gospel, you know, 'cause Tim Keller is a gospel guy, then everything's sonship. And then from that is an assignment. So he differentiated the, he differentiated the assignment from the identity. And I had not done that. And I think early on, 'cause you know, early on, there needed to be a separation between the assignment and the identity because we always combine them. And it was like, I got one of the last things Tim Keller did before he passed was separate Mike Signorelli from the assignment and the identity. And what's crazier is kind of a cool prophetic dream. So I had this dream that I was on Roosevelt Island, which is where Tim lived. So now Tim, you know, he died of cancer. And so anyways, in the dream, I see this guy in like a seersucker suit, right? Like old school, like 70s with a full head of hair. And he's like waving me over, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike, come here. And as I get closer, I'm looking, who is that? And in the dream, I'm like, Tim, Tim Keller is that, you know, I'm like, you look amazing. And he was like, yeah. And you know, it was like, like old school Tim,

like glorified body, heavenly body Tim. And he points to the financial district of Manhattan from Roosevelt Island. And he said, Mike, if you answer their questions, they will answer your prayers. And then I woke up. The next day I had a leadership meeting with all of our elders. And I said, I think God used like metaphor, It gets me in trouble to commission us to plant a campus in the financial district of Manhattan. I tell them the dream. So I get ahold of one of my board members and tell them the dream. He's like, hey, have you thought about reaching out to so-and-so, this mutual? I hit the mutual up. I'm like, hey, I know this sounds crazy. I know you have space across the city. I'm looking to do something in Manhattan for my next campus. I feel like God gave me this prophetic dream. And I said, you know, can you just help me look? Or do you have any ideas? He goes, yeah, he goes, let me call you back in a few. He calls me back. He's like, I don't think this would even work for you. He goes, 'cause I know it's not like a normal place or a popular place to start a campus. But the only space I have is in the financial district.

And I'm like, that'll do. We started that Manhattan campus and it exploded. And the craziest thing was I built it off of answering questions. I said, instead of just doing altar calls, I did Q&A. - Cool. - And it was like, so my thing is like, when people are like, well, I'm a charismatic with a seatbelt, I don't even know how to do ministry with a seatbelt on. Ministry for me never worked with a seatbelt on. You know what I mean? - It's funny when you're telling that story about separating your identity. When I came back from my first sabbatical, where I took a time off of four weeks off and it was my first Tuesday coming back after the four weeks of just being with the Lord. And I'm on my morning prayer run when I'm daily encountering Spangtime with the Lord, I run. So I'm on my prayer run to have this overwhelming feeling that I'm not excited to come back. And I feel guilty. Like I've been off for weeks, you know. And then I'm trying to like figure this out. I love my church, love my staff. Like, why don't I want to come back? So I can't figure it out. I'm on my prayer run.

I said to the Lord, why don't I want to come back? And He said to me, 'cause you don't need it. - Wow. - And it was this, it was this like cool moment that instantly I had peace. I'm like, cool. Like I enjoy my time with the Lord more than ministry. - Wow. - Or podcaster, all this stuff that we do, like I'm really about Him. And for me, it was like this beautiful piece of like, okay, now just keep this. - Wow. - Now just keep this. Take a moment and talk about one of the greatest injustices of our time. It's human trafficking. Right now, there are fewer than 700 long-term restoration beds nationwide for survivors of human trafficking. And we'll say that again, 700 nationwide with millions and millions of people that are traffic, only 700 places for them to go. To answer this cry of justice, our church has birthed the ministry called the justice reform. Right now in Fort Worth, Texas, the justice reform is building a long-term restoration home called the justice residence. It will house up to 100 women rescued out of human trafficking.

The justice residence is a biblically based in presence-driven facility that will disciple hundreds of women into healing and restoration with Jesus. I wanted to ask you and invite you to become a monthly partner with the justice residence. Help it make it possible for these women to have a safe place to learn and grow in their relationship with Jesus, to join us in this fight and to partner with us, text partner to 59090 or visit thejusticereform.com. I want to ask you this question. Man, that's so good. Where do your tears come from? So we've been having a 50-minute conversation. Wow. And you've teared up almost cried twice when you're talking about these moments with the Holy Spirit, your mom, these different things. People got baptized in the Holy Spirit both times we're talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit where instantly this comes on you. What's happening when that happens? I believe it. I'm very, the natural state of my mind is very atheistic. There is a huge war that happens in my mind. This is probably a very appropriate way to bring this whole podcast together because I'm known for the supernatural.

I had a movie that hit number three in the box office here in the US where I'm showing medically verifiable miracles, the proof from the doctors. But I think what people don't understand is how my mind is oriented the 180 degrees, the other direction. And so I've had to submit my mind too. So I think even for me calling out the pastors who say I'm gonna put on the seatbelt to be like, "Well, that's really people pleasing." And I think what gives me license to say that is because in my atheistic, natural mind, I get that where you want people to think that you're intelligent. You want people to think that you're not just this weird Christian. And I think for me, I've wrestled with stuff. I read Francis Schaeffer. You know, I've got a master's in theology with a 4.0. I've went to, I mean, for a while I was in the Reformed camp, you know. and those guys back in the day, like I've just been on this crazy multi-decade journey, but I regard myself like a Jacob, like I'm a wrestler. And so when I'm crying, it's like, what people ask me, like we have 2 million subscribers on YouTube, but teach me the algorithm. I'm like, what people are feeling when they're watching me is my own personal desperation.

They're feeling my own brokenness, my longing, my, they're feeling my wrestle. And I'm still doing it. You have through every season, through every stage of life, that's just eternally who I am. It's like a wrestler. And so that just comes through. So when I invite somebody, it's not listen to me preach, it's wrestle with me. You know, when I invite somebody, it's not watching my YouTube channel, it's coming wrestle with me. Like if you are also wrestling, you'll feel, but also that's where you encounter Beth Elle. That's, you know, that's where you get like the open heavens. And so I think for me, the battle, the battleground becomes the holy ground, you know, because it's like on that site or all that warfare, you know, even with David, like I'm a man after your own heart, like Saul sinned Davidson, the difference was the posture of the heart. And so for me, there's just such a heart longing. Like, so when I talk about the thread of the gospel and the baptism of the Holy Spirit through my family, I'm the generational curse breaker through Christ that gets to tell the story of like when the moment when Pentecost happened in my bloodline, my father side on the other hand, the Sicilian side, you know, he committed manslaughter, went to prison for a while, died prematurely.

My mom got him to go to church one time and the old school Pentecostal preacher was probably preaching to my dad, you know, in those churches, you only get like one visitor every like a couple of months. And she said he got to the salvation moment and was like, please, if it's you let like, 'cause, you know, stop gripping the front of the pew and come up front, give your life to Christ. She said she had her hand on my father's back. My father's name is my name, Michael Signorelli Sr. And she was like, Mike, please, please go up front. Mike, please, please. And he wouldn't do it. He clutched even harder. So I think for me, just the awareness of had it not been for the Holy Spirit. We're moving the scales from my eyes to have my dad's name, to share 50% of his DNA, but yet to be something totally different, being new creation through Christ. I've never gotten over my salvation. I've never gotten over it. I relive it every time I lead somebody to Christ in New York City. And I just believe it, you know, I just-- It's funny as you're talking, I had this picture of your dad clenching the pew. And then I saw your hands clenching the angel. Oh, man, yeah, in the same way he wouldn't let go

is the same way you won't let go, but he's the one that touches you. Dude, it's like, well, I don't know if they said this in your church growing up, but like grab ahold of the horns of the altar. And you know, it's like that picture. And I even said to you, like my dad was a physical killer and I'm a spiritual killer. So like, I'm murderous, but I just slay demons. Like I'm still a killer, man. Like, and that thing in my dad, my dad drove a Camaro. My dad was like a macho man type of dude, you know? And like, I think the Lord had to take me on a journey of redeeming that and be like, what does it look like for you to be a murderer too? But righteously, well, I kill mentalities. I kill strongholds. I kill demons. Like, I kill doubt. Like, what does that look like, you know? And for me being fatherless, I had to go on that journey. But those tears for me is like, I believe it. It's real to me, man. I tell my kids all the time, I'm like, whether you, you know, I will, I say two things. I'm like, we'll get out of these crazy revival services. And I'm like, number one, whether you believed it or not, it was very entertaining. You know, that's my joke. And I said, but your daddy believes every bit of it.

Every page of the 66 canonized books of the Bible, I believe every bit of it. I'm submitted to all of it. And I'm going on a journey to increase. You remember, Jack Hayford? Yeah. You know, I remember I was in a like smaller room setting where he was talking about, you know, that classic sermon he has, like stiff neck center in the stiff neck backslidden center. I don't know if you've ever seen that sermon he preached, but he kind of did a version of that with like me and a group of pastors in a room in Michigan. And he was at, at that time, like advanced an age. And I remember just thinking, like, if he thinks he's a backslider, I'm not even safe because I was like, at your age, how do you even sin your body? You can't even do it if you want. Like, what do you do it? I remember, but I was like, no, what happens? I think it's like, I want to increase in holiness and righteousness and just whatever that means. And I think that's the cool thing is like, you know, LeBron is like way. peak at, you know, before your 40. But I think in the faith, with the journey that I'm in now is just longevity. Yeah. You know, like I'm in my 20th year of pastoral ministry, my 10th year of being a lead pastor. And I just, I just want to go the distance. So those tears are just like, none of it matters. The followers, the subscribers, the, the number of campuses, all that stuff, like it's just, and I think, and I feel that from you, like you're one of those people that really emanates

that, even when you were talking about your sabbatical, I thought, well, his church dwells because he dwells. Yeah. Like your church longs for the presence, because you long for the present, it's just an extension of the man, which also becomes the true form of Christian leadership, which is examine yourself. Yeah. Like you've never had a bad student, just a bad teacher. So it's like, how am I being what I want them to be? And so I'm just trying to walk it out. So those tears are me just doing it, man. Like, you know, and I've been a big thing and I haven't cooked it yet. But I'm working a lot on this concept of assignment versus identity, because I think Christians are American Christians are obsessed with assignment, obsessed with assignment. But we give very little thought to identity. But if you, when you're fully in identity, that will actually produce assignment. It'll align with assignment. Like you only have to think about assignment. Identity is like, you live in an autopilot. You know what I mean? Like, because what we're doing right now, it's like most dudes would have to like teleprompt all of it, script it. You know what I mean? But I didn't tell you what we're talking about. Yeah. Well, I asked your team and they were like, we're not telling you. I appreciate you. Yeah. And as I'm sitting here, 20 years a ministry, 10 years a pastor and you're crying on a podcast. It's good to be real. It's good to be authentic. Yeah. It's cool to be this far in it and you're still really in love with Jesus. Like it's just, it's a sweet thing in the fakeness of so much. Tell me about it. It's sweet. When I'm coaching young leaders, young communicators, I describe spiritual leadership as giving away your relationship with God. Oh, it's so good. You can't give something you don't

have. And it's just taking the journey, your intimacy and you're cutting up in a little bit of pieces and you're just constantly giving away. And you have so much to give away. And as we close, I just want you to pray over the people that are watching. And I'd ask you to give away that passion in you, that Jacob in you that won't let go. Yeah. That you won't let go till you blesses you, that touch from God, that won't give in killing principalities, that thing that's deep inside you. Would you do your best in prayer just to release that on people that are watching? Yeah, I just got this powerful vision while you were talking. You know, there's that scripture like knock in the door will be open. I had this vision of this like tidal wave that just kept slamming against a door. And the person's on the inside of this room hearing the knocking, not realizing it's a wave. It's water. It's slamming the door. And it's like what happens is you just open, you crack that door and the water just blows it off the hinges. That's the best way I can explain what happens with me and God is like, I think I hear knocking, but it's not it's not just a we always pictures like Jesus on the other side, you know, and he just gently walks in. I think that knocking is this massive tsunami that just keeps hitting your door every time the crust of the wave forms. And then you crack that door open and his presence just rushes in. That's what happens to me. And then from that place, you just get totally emerged in it, underwater. You can't breathe anymore. You need gills now. Like you're not you the whole atmosphere shifts. And so for me, because I'm atheistic, because I'm natural minded, whenever I'm like, well, let me just open that door to speak in tongues. You know, that that's what I'm saying. Like, let me just open that door. It just it just blows it off the hinges.

And then I'm like, whoa. So to the person right now who has been hearing the palpable knock of the Holy Spirit, who's been hearing the sound. I just challenge you right now. This man, Pentecost is about to enter your room right now. Pentecost is about to you heard my mother's story. And the Lord says it's time for your story. Now it came through a podcast. It came through you listening. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God there. Your faith was rising the entire time. So I challenge you right now to open your mouth. Say yes and switch from English into tongues and allow the Holy Spirit baptism of water and a fire right now from the very top of your head to the souls of your feet. And father, I thank you for doing it right now, Lord, even as their heart has desired it. Even as they've craved it, God, it was you soliciting and drawing them. And so as they open the door right now, I pray that they will never be the same. Yeah, come on, that's right. Just speak it out. And just yield yourself fully full surrender to the Holy Spirit in Jesus mighty name. Amen. Amen. I can't wait for those testimonies. Beautiful. Yeah, beautiful. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for having me. If you desire to spiritually grow, I want to invite you on this journey with me. Subscribe to Mercy Culture or you could follow me on socials at @landinashot. And if you value this content, I would really appreciate it if you'd share it with a friend. I'm Landin. Thank you for joining me on spiritual leadership where we're helping leaders become spiritual leaders. [BLANK_AUDIO]