Homosexuality & Christianity | Spiritual Leadership Podcast with Landon Schott

Hey, today we're going to be talking about struggling with same-sex attraction and being in ministry and in church. What does it look like? What are challenges? What are helpful things and what are things that are not helpful at all? But most importantly, how does someone walk in freedom and deliverance? I'm Landon. This is Spiritual Leadership, where we're helping leaders become spiritual leaders. Let's get after it. Well, I'm excited about this conversation today and my journey with dealing and engaging with same-sex attractions came from really two things, a rebuke of the Lord, and then like this like really grievance that came up in my spirit. So the rebuke came, I grew up in Seattle, I mean, leading the way in gay rights, affirming. I mean, I remember growing up in Seattle, going to Capitol Hill, I'd shop there, get coffee there, and there's rainbows everywhere on the streets before that was a thing. And one time I'm in downtown Seattle, walking through Nordstrom's, and this dude who was selling makeup says to me, like, hey, do you want a sample? And when he said it to me, I just looked at him, which was disgust. And I was like, no, I don't want a sample of makeup. And then I walked past him and I don't remember if I thought or if I even like whispered like, be a man. But it was like this like disgust in my heart towards this guy. And I'll never forget, I'm walking out of the department store, like into the mall area, and I heard the Holy Spirit speak to me. And he said, you will never reach them if you don't love them. And it reminded me of when I was writing my Jezebel book and I asked the Lord, I was like, why does this person bother me so much? He's like, because you're not a father. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, okay, so you're informing me of what's missing in me to do my job or to spiritually grow.

And in this moment, like the Lord revealed, like, you don't have a love for this community. And so the beautiful thing is that might not be something that's innate in you because how are you raised? And I was raised in an environment that people used the word gay and then other derogatory terms constantly, and it was just like normal language. And so it was like, hey, don't be dumb. But instead of saying don't be dumb, it's don't be gay. And I mean, I've been in groups with pastors and leaders in church where people would talk freely like that, and none of these people hated gay people. They just were dishonoring, disrespectful, and unloving in their words on a regular basis. So it created this awareness in me of like, ah, my mind and my heart is not in sync with the Lord's. So then I started asking him for his heart. Once I started getting his heart on this, I realized, whoa, whoa, whoa, there's a lot of people struggling with this. And so for me, this is in my youth pastoring, traveling ministry days. And then I'm realizing not many people are talking about this. And I don't want to be like Elijah where like no one is and like, we're the only ones. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying it was few and far between. And then there's a lot of people struggling. So this is coming off like the emo scene into the Katy Perry, I kissed a girl scene. And there's all of these like nudges constantly, then from Katy into Lady Gaga. And it was just this push to be curious, to be bi-curious. And the conversations were changing. California was pushing over and over and over. It was becoming more public on the scene. And so like the underground movement became public. And then in the church, it remained really, really quiet. And so I would say a lot of you guys are the product of the seeds that were sown in those years.

How old is everybody in the room? 33. 33. 34. 34. 32. Okay. So all early thirties. So you guys are all, what's your, is it? We're millennials. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yep. Born in the nineties. Okay. And so all of you came through that same season of like indoctrinations and the church stayed quiet for so long. I remember writing Gay Awareness in 2015. So this is before. or gay marriage, and pastors literally told me, a pastor literally told me, he's like, I'm not going near your book with a 10-foot pole. And I remember just so grieved of like, but what about all the people in your church that are struggling? And if you're not saying anything, then who's going to spiritually lead them? I had another pastor, like this world leader, literally at a conference coming to me, he's like, you better not write that book,

and encouraged me not to. And his response was, it'll cost you your reputation. I'm like, I thought we were supposed to make ourselves have no reputation. And so for my mindset, it's always been like, it's worth the one, it's worth the person, it's worth whatever comes with that. And then the other pushback that you get from the people that don't want you to touch it because it creates an awkwardness, is other people are like, why are you so obsessed with this? Why are you talking about this? And people only respond when you touch something that's sensitive to them. It's like when you're like, man, someone's always hitting my hurt foot, but you didn't notice you bump it all the time until it's hurt. And so when you get near that sensitive thing in someone's heart, all of a sudden they start responding. And so we're having this conversation today. And for people that don't know, you guys are all our friends and you guys are pastors. You are a one-day pastor, soon to be, who knows, but it's on your life. Actually, I think they call you the bishop of the reverend behind the scenes. And so, but you're all in ministry, you're all worship leaders, and then you're all serving high caliber

in mercy culture worship. And what I love about this and this conversation is every single one of you have struggled in different degrees with same-sex attraction or homosexual practice. And now today you are living in freedom. You're living in holiness. And you are ministers of worship and the gospel that's going around the world through mercy culture worship. And this is a part of your testimony, which is so cool and beautiful. One of the prophetic words that was released over our house was that this was a year that we would share our testimonies. So we believe it's a mandate of the Lord. Revelations 12, 11, you're set free by the blood of the Lamb word of your testimony. And not only that, there was another word that shame would have to go. And so I have two prayers for this conversation we're having today. Number one is that people would be bold and tell their testimony. Privately, publicly, it doesn't matter, but that you would break through barriers. And then the second part would be is that shame would break off people's lives. And it would be something that no longer holds them down.

And sometimes when you're struggling with something, the enemy will always tell you that you're the only one. Or a lot of people have been pulled into the gay community because that's the place that they've been accepted or welcomes them until you leave, and then it's pretty gnarly. But I would love that for the church of not an affirming place, but a loving place that will love people where they're at, walk them through what they need to be walked through, and help them live in freedom, deliverance, and holiness. Pastor Jaz, why don't you start us out? You've been public with your testimony, which I was shocked, okay? You shared your testimony, I think it was one July for the first time. And some lady that I wanna use a name and be mean, but I'm trying to walk in radical love because it's a prophetic word. This lady gets on the YouTube and she's like, I can't believe she would talk about that. And I can't believe that she would share that. That's so inappropriate. Wow. And like, I love people with their comments and we appreciate their comment ministry, but I have never, ever been more proud of you as a daughter. I've known you since you were 14 years old or junior high in our youth ministry,

as when you publicly shared your testimony so boldly about what you went through in college. And so I know you've done it before, but would you just share kind of your journey, what you experienced, and how the enemy attacked you in this area? Yeah, so I think my personal testimony is interesting because I never struggled with same-sex attraction. I actually walked with a lot of people in their homosexuals, same-sex attraction struggles in high school and college. It was just like, I played basketball my whole life. And basketball, women's basketball, it's a big part of the culture. It's everywhere. And so I was constantly around that, constantly in relationship with people, just helping them walk through that, process it. And my senior year, but I will say this though, as I was walking with people, I kind of had a similar experience as what you articulated is sometimes there'd be this thing that would come up in me that would kind of be like. just stop. Just like, just stop doing that. Just get over it. Like figure it out, you know, would kind of be the mindset sometimes and couldn't understand the feeling that people had of feeling stuck in it. I just couldn't like wrap my mind around it. And anyway, I get into college, I'm playing basketball. And my senior year of college, there's this young lady, the Lord tells me that she's going to come to know the Lord, that I get to be a part of it. So I'm stoked, excited to walk with this girl, to know the Lord. And in the midst of that, long story short, I tear my ACL. And she ends up being a person in our community or on our team that helped me heal

through this whole thing. As she's helping me, as I'm healing up, we're friends, we're building, and little by little, these boundaries start getting crossed in our friendship. It's emotional boundaries, and then it's physical boundaries. And before I know it, I'm in a full blown homosexual relationship with my teammate. And I remember being in the midst of it and just being like, how in the world did I just get here? I was walking with Jesus in the midst of this, but there's this friendship that got perverted along the way. Again, I never struggled with same-sex attraction, so it wasn't like this long wrestle my whole life. It was just this relationship, this friendship that the enemy perverted. And so I ended up in this full-blown homosexual relationship with this girl. I feel stuck. I feel like, man, I can't tell anybody that this is happening because I'm going to get... I will never be able to do ministry again. People disqualify me from everything. My family's going to think this. All these thoughts that come up. And so I'm trying to hide it. We're literally living a lie. We're not telling anybody. Our coaches didn't know. Our team didn't know. We're hiding this. And one day, it was kind of like rock bottom moment for me where I just felt like... Y'all know the moment where you're like, something has to give, something has to change. And I remember where I was. We're in a hotel room. The enemy will do this, right? But we got set up to where we were always scheduled to be together on our team. We were like cubby partners. It was like always together. And so this one day, I still remember where we were in this hotel room and she was asking me about the Lord. She was curious about God and the things of God. And I felt like, man, I can't lead her to Jesus because I'm literally leading her away from Jesus. And I just felt just sick to my stomach. And so I went to the Lord and I was like, Lord, I don't know how to get out of this. I feel stuck. And I'm giving you permission. Tell on me. Tell somebody whatever it takes to pull me out of this pit. I'll give you permission to do it. The Bible says that when we face temptation, that God will always provide a way out. And so I'm like, I need you to show me that way out that you talk about in the scripture. And long story short, the next day, one of my friends calls me and she says, Hey, I had a dream about you last night. And this is kind of random, but you were in a relationship with this girl. And she starts to describe what the girl looks like, tells me her name, tells me some of the places we hung out at. And she says, I know you never struggled with this. So it's probably just prophetic. It probably doesn't mean something else. What do you think it means? I'm on the other line and I'm bawling. I'm like, no, no, no. You don't understand. I told God

if he provided a way out that I would take it. And so I just start telling her everything that was going on and just, you know, just kind of blurted it all out. And it was the perfect person for that. She was so, uh, just full of mercy and the love of God. When I told her it was beautiful, went to my pastor at the time and just told him everything, just brought it all to light, went back to the girl, broke up with the girl, told her about Jesus. She gets baptized, gets saved, gives her life to the Lord. Um, and that was kind of like the shift of all of it. Um, but, uh, there was a, there was a process for me after that. Um, one, I thought that I could disciple this girl after all of that was over. So I kept trying to like walk with her through it. And so we kept falling and so God delivered me out of this moment, but we kept falling back into sin because I was being dumb, you know, and I thought I could help, you know? And so I needed to completely separate myself from that relationship to heal and walk through a deliverance process and renewing of my mind, all these different things. Uh, and so, um, yeah, I mean, years went by and a few years after that, I would say was when I felt like it was a, uh, just walking in complete deliverance from the whole thing where I could testify about it. But it was a, it was a few year process of deliverance and freedom for me out of this relationship. And it feels good to be able to testify about it today. Yeah. What I hear in your story is the partnership with the Holy spirit and the prayer. Holy spirit helped me is one of the greatest prayers that you can pray. He's the helper. And there's so many times where people can think, either I have to do this, like I have to be strong enough, it's willpower, it's on me, or the opposite is like the Holy Spirit anointing, and if you sow into the right ministry, if you get the right magical hanky, or you get holy water from Jerusalem, then the Lord will do it. And there are these beautiful moments of deliverance where the Lord touches you, and at the same time, you have to walk out deliverance. Paul, where history is about to begin.

Legalizing gay marriage in Minnesota. This morning, the Supreme Court recognized that the Constitution guarantees marriage equality. I was a young minister, and I was seeing all of these young people struggling with homosexuality and same-sex attractions, and nobody was talking about it. It was this taboo subject, and I was grieved in my heart because I saw so many people struggling that needed help, and they were looking for spiritual leaders to help them, to teach them the Bible, and to stand with them. So I began to ask the Lord, give me your heart and your mind for sexuality. I spent a multi-year journey seeking God, studying God's word. Gay awareness is a Bible study. It's a Bible study of the heart of the Father and the mind of Christ. It's a story of deliverance. It's a story of righteousness. It's a story of freedom, and so many different individuals that are following Jesus and living successful Christ-centered lives by denying their flesh and following Jesus. Gay awareness will help you learn what the Bible says and equip you to live a holy life. Gay Awareness by Landon Schott, available now on Amazon.com. I look at deliverance like, you know,

if we had robbers in our house, and the police come in, and they cleared them all out, and they got them out, well, that's the moment of deliverance. But then we have to shut doors, windows to keep things out. And so it's this partnership where the Holy Spirit does that beautiful work of deliverance that only he can do. And at the same time, we walk out disciplines and self-control, and renewing our minds, and stewardship, and boundaries, and all these other things. And so it's not one or the other. And a lot of people are in this place where they're stuck, and they're waiting on a miracle. I'm just waiting for the Lord to take it from me. You know, I'm a heterosexual with a beautiful wife, and I have to guard my eyes. I love watching football. I know after a football plays, they go to commercial, and when they're going to commercial, there'll be some cheerleader with half the clothes on, bending over camera, doing something with pom-poms. I'm like, that's the time I look away. And I tell men all the time, it's like, hey, the first moment you see something where you feel temptation, that's not sin, it's the second one. And so the enemy will always come, and try to mess with people,

and learning how to have your guard up, boundaries up. And so I'm 42, I haven't looked at pornography in years, and years, and years, but I still have to guard my eyes. There are Christian, born-again, Jesus-loving, workout, Instagram people that I won't follow. I'm glad you love the Lord, but I don't love your spandex. And so that's just not something, and I know guys that struggle with heterosexual sin, and you're following people that you should not be following. That needs to be a boundary, and so it's a mixture of God doing it, our disciplines, but again, that beautiful partnership with the Holy Spirit, and praying, Holy Spirit, help me. Danny, share a little about your story. Okay, so mine's very different than yours, Pastor Jeff. From the moment I could even think about anything sexually related, it was always towards men. It was never towards women. And I remember, I grew up in a super conservative house. My dad is an atheist, my mom's a Christian. Me, being a kid, hearing this, being like, oh my God, what am I gonna do? I have to hide. So it created this thing in me that no one will ever know, that I'll just have to live like this. I was fully saved at 13, like I met Jesus at 13, and when I met him, it got even worse,

where this war inside of me started, it was just dramatic, the war, because now I had scripture that told me, you know the lists that Paul writes out, fornicators, homosexuals, you will not inherit the kingdom of God. And as I read that, I'm like, but wait, Lord, it feels like I was created this way, because I've never known a different way, but you say I'm condemned, and then learning about God, that he's good, but if you... he's good, why did he create me this way to be condemned? And so there's this whirlwind of, do I trust you God? Are you real? Are you not real? Anyway, so growing up in that from teenage years to high school years, right at the end of high school into early college, I struggled with pornography. I never actually entered into a relationship with a man. It was all private, trying to hide it, all that stuff. One day my brother comes up to me, it was like, hey, I'm like, hey, he's like, are you gay? Like, just straight up asked me. And like, it was in my heart, I was in a similar moment to your friend calling you with the dream. Similar moment, I've been asking the Lord, like, what is my way out? Like, you have to help me.

And I just broke down and I was like, I don't know. I think I am, like, I'm not attracted to women. Like, I don't know what's going on. And it was beautiful the way that my brother and I'm one of seven kids and they're all Christians and it's beautiful. And the way that my entire family just, I call it like they became the wooly blanket that wrapped around me. And they said, hey, like, whatever you're going through, it's okay, it doesn't matter if it's homosexuality, it doesn't matter what it is, we're gonna see healing. Like, we're gonna pursue healing, we're gonna go after it. So I remember, I call it like my deliverance year. It was one year where they literally like put me on a plan, like a workout plan, they put me on a food plan, they put me on Bible reading plan. My mom, she's spirit filled and like any pastor or any like prophet that was coming in town, she's like, we're bringing you to the prophet and they're gonna pray over you. Most humiliating thing, right? Like most, like she like dragged me to these random churches and I'm like, I'm 18, 19. I'm like, this is not like, this is totally going against my pride. But I humbled myself and I was like, sure, pray for me. And so it was a consistent year of going after relationship with the Lord and going after deliverance. Like that was the thing we were believing for,

multiple fasts, all this stuff. But throughout the year, it was more strict, more strict, more discipline and no change. Nothing was happening in my heart. And I was getting so angry and the scripture that kept coming up was in Matthew when Jesus said, my yoke is easy and my burden is light. And I kept saying like, God, your yoke isn't easy. Like this is not easy. Like what is happening? And so one night I told the Lord, I didn't ask him, I told him, I said, you're gonna deliver me. I'm gonna drive to a field. I don't know where I got this from. I'm gonna drive to a field and you're gonna deliver me. And so I get in my car and I'm about to drive to this field and I look up into the woods. We owned this land in Pennsylvania and I look up into the woods and these lights come on in the woods. And I'm like, what the heck? Like I'm gripped with fear. And this is real. This is not a dream. This is not a dream. These lights come on, they come off, come on, come off. And I'm like, what is happening? And the Lord says, go up there. And it's like one of those moments, almost audible. And I'm like, I'm not going up there.

Like we didn't have iPhones back then. I didn't have a flashlight on my phone. It was a little flip phone thing. And so anyway, he talks me into it. So I walk up there and the atmosphere was crazy. Like spiritual warfare. I promise you, I was hearing metal clanging up in the trees like pitch black, dark. I'm like, I'm gonna die. The Lord brought me up here to die. See, if you were black, you would have left. That's what I'm saying. You see? I'm glad you know. That's how I know you know the black community. All right, keep going. So I'm up there and I'm like, God, you brought me up here to die. What do you want me to do? And he said, this earth has been, the enemy has stolen this piece of earth. I need you to give it back to me. And I started having memories of abuse that happened to me in the woods in that moment. I'm sorry, I'm about to get emotional. And so I was like, I was angry though. And I was like, you want your earth? Like, what about me? Like, why are you telling me about your earth? And so he starts walking me through a prayer

about cleansing the earth and giving him the earth back, that it belonged to him. Enemy stole it, but it's his. So right after that, I'm standing there. I'm like, okay, cool, you got your earth. Now what? And it's such a bad attitude. I was not in reverence. And the Lord says, in the same way, your heart. And he showed me my heart in a vision. And he said, there's a little black piece on your heart. He's like, I have all your heart, but this one spot. I need you to give me that spot. So he walks me through a prayer, giving him that part of my heart. And mind you, I feel nothing. Like, I don't feel the tingles of the Holy Spirit. I feel nothing. I feel like I'm gonna die still. And after that, I'm like, cool, God. Now what? what? Because I didn't feel, I didn't feel anything. I didn't feel release. So I just stood there and I was like, I'm not moving until this is over. So I'm standing there, it's quiet. In the woods. In the woods, in the dark, just standing there. Like I'm not leaving. And then all of a sudden I start hearing an animal walk straight towards me. I grew up in the Pennsylvania woods. I grew up hunting. My wind was going right to this animal. And I'm like, this is a lion. Like, you know what I mean? How?

I don't know. I just start, you just start racing. You're like, this animal is going to eat me. I'm going to die. And then I'm like, Lord, you brought me up here for your land and now you're going to kill me. Like what is happening? So this animal is walking towards me. It gets like 10 feet from me, but I can't see it. And it's like cracking sticks walking straight to me. And I'm like, God, what is happening? And he says, do you remember in Mark when I cast the demons into the pigs, I want you to do that. And I'm like, what? And so he walks me through this prayer of casting three demons into this animal. It was homosexuality, perversion, and self, self-pleasure. And so I cast these demons into this thing, this animal, and I stand there, still don't feel a thing. I'm like, okay, Lord, what is happening? I'm just standing here with an animal. Like what is happening? All of a sudden the animal starts running away from me. So like cracking sticks, like just booking it away from me. And I'm like, cool. Literally out loud. I'm like, cool, thanks for this. That was awesome. Like, so felt nothing. What was the point of this? Then the animal gets like, I don't know, a hundred, a hundred yards away. And I, this is real life. Okay. You ready for this? I start hearing a tree cracking as if it's going to fall over like, then it falls over, hits the ground and you could feel like the reverberations. And I, I audibly hear the Lord say it is finished. And I fell over and I just started weeping and weeping and weeping because it was the first time I felt that true deliverance that these demons that have been messing with me my entire life were finally gone. And then after that, the Lord told me to walk around our property seven times. And he started speaking to me about my freedom. Now that I've been delivered, what does freedom look like? He told me it was going to take a three-year journey. And he said, now that my soul is free, my body needs to catch up. And so he was telling me all the things that I need to do about renewing my mind, renewing my body. And it was a three-year journey. I actually met Amy, who's my wife now, I met Amy one year into my three-year journey. And so when we met, I was still in the thick of walking out freedom. But I can confidently say that, you know, this, that was 14 years ago. I am, I have been delivered and it's possible. Incredible. Incredible. I'm trying not to make a joke, but it, it felt like, it felt like an episode of stranger things or something. I don't watch that series. What I love about it, listening to you talk reminded me of conversations I had with John Paul Jackson as a young man, and listening to you say things that are crazy.

And then when I mean crazy, as in like hard to understand, and then the scripture that aligns with the story and then all things that point to Jesus, because there'll be some people that will sit back and listen to that story, cross their arms and be like, I don't believe that, that you're making things up. And those are the people that stay bound. And those are the people that don't experience. I promise you, if that's your heart posture, you won't experience deliverance. You won't experience freedom, but it was the people that just said, I just got to touch Jesus. It's the people that broke roofs open and got their friends down. It was the people that were able to do those things. The other thing that's interesting about your story, and we're making jokes about it being in the woods and stuff, but if you studied the Bible, majority of encounters with God were not in church. Mm-hmm. Outside. It's real. Majority of them were out in life and nature, the water on the other side, just random stuff constantly happening where people are like, no, no, no, I'm not gonna get delivered. This is really important. I feel like someone needs to hear this day. I'm not gonna get delivered because it has to happen in church services, and you're going to church services. Yeah. And majority of church services, the goal of church services, depending on what kind of church you go to, but unfortunately, the goal of many church services is to entertain people. Yeah. And most people ain't getting delivered there. That's right. But then even in the churches that are built around the presence of God or are biblically sound Spirit-filled churches, a lot of their goals are to disciple people. Yes. And so in those services, deliverance and freedom isn't your goal, unless Pastor Jasmine is preaching and she's got a... word about someone cutting themselves or doing whatever they're doing, or Heather's preaching and people start just getting delivered and demons coming out, but what I'm saying is it's not a focus enough in a lot of churches.

And that's why I love about Daily Encounters and the vision of Mercy Culture is because it's not about a stinking church service. I love our church services, I love it when you guys lead worship, like I can't get enough of it, but honestly, despite you leading worship in church services, because I listen to Mercy Worship every day in my Daily Encounters, so I don't need you in church services, but I really don't look forward to, as a person, church services like that, because we're ministering a lot when we go to these services, I look forward to my Daily Encounters, it's somewhere out there, that church out in the middle of sticks I go sneak out to, my runs on the trails praying in D.C. or whatever I'm doing, I know he's going to meet me in those places, and those are the places I get delivered. So I want to encourage people, if you don't have a Daily Encounter, if that's not what your relationship with God's like, it might be a lot harder, and there's some people that are like, it hasn't happened in so long, because you don't spend time with the Lord. And if you begin to spend time with the Lord, I promise you, you are going to have an encounter with God, may not look like yours or yours, but it'll be unique to you. Yes, yes, yes. Jay, I remember the first time I met you was at one of the first Teen Nights of Mercy culture. I remember that. It was at Seven City Church. It was, yeah. And you were a worship leader at another church, and we were hustling and trying to get worship leaders from other people's churches. Just kidding. Wait a second. Just kidding. That was offensive to your souls. I'm joking, we've never done that. There's been local pastors that tried to do that on you. True story. That's another podcast.

Anyway, met you, had no idea what you struggled with and didn't know your story, and yours is crazy. Like the amount of abuse, the amount of just demonic harassment and activity that you endured, it broke my heart. I remember hearing your story for the first time, and people are going to hear it here, but I remember thinking you are a miracle. I can't believe you're sane. I can't believe you love the Lord. And then the wildest part, I'm going to let you share your story, but the wildest part to me is how you went through so much darkness and were still involved in the church, and how so many pastors overlooked you for so long, and as long as you're leading worship, as long as you're singing, as long as you're performing, the church stuff, it didn't matter what your soul was going through and what was happening. Share your testimony. Yes. What I would say is I was a little Black boy. I grew up in church. I had a grandfather who was a pastor. My mother took me to church all the time. Some people say, oh, I was a PK. I was kind of like a PK. I was like a GPK. That's what I called myself, my grandparents. It wasn't my dad or anything. And so she kept us in church, single mother, two boys. My father is an athletic being. Me and my father didn't have that much of a relationship. So the reason why I say that is because when Jalen came, Jalen wasn't the athletic kid. Jalen was the sensitive, creative kid. And one of the things that my grandparents, thank God,

the Lord spoke to them and gave them a word about me. It was like, hey, this is a... I remember my aunt and my mother was like, hey, your grandmother used to say this. Like, hey, he's a very sensitive kid. You have to steward this very well. It's a gift from the Lord. Now, I don't know if they steward that very well, but it was an attack. They spoke out what the Lord said and the enemy was like, oh, really? And so I was raised in church, loved the Lord. My parents loved the Lord, was in the environment of that. And then I remember when I was younger, I think the first time I've ever encountered perversion was in school. My grandparent, my grandmother was a teacher. And it happened within the little Jack and Jill bathrooms with two classrooms. I was second grade. I was sexually molested as a little kid, as a young boy in that restroom. In my mind, school was unsafe for me. And as the journey continues, things like that kept happening year after year after year. And so growing up, I would say, being in church and hearing them preach the word, my grandfather preached the word, he preached about homosexuality, he preached about all these different things. And like what you're saying, like, you're reading this word and you're like, what is happening? Like, what do I do? Being raised by women as well. I was more, some would say effeminate. I was more, I was a sensitive kid, but I hung around amazing women of God who prayed. And so I would always hear, that boy need to toughen up. Is he gay? He a sissy or he's these things.

And the prophecy of those words started to be fulfilled over my life, even though I did not know what those things meant. And as I got older, being in church, learning what that looked like to, to feel the Lord, to experience God and to see people radically saved, but internally, I'm not. And so what I saw in church was people living double lives, people preaching about the Lord, but struggling with sin behind the scenes. And I really didn't see freedom. I saw, I saw men who struggled with homosexuality in the church and not be free. And it kind of became this commonality. It kind of became the thing. And you saw many other things. And so I think one of the things that was really challenging to me as I was walking this, this journey out with the Lord was, was God real to me? And was he good to me? Yeah. And at one point in my life, I took on this notion that, oh, the Lord predestined me to be this way because of the circumstances that were out of my control. I would say being in church, seeing miracles, signs, and wonders, and praying, Lord, will this happen for me? Yeah. And it didn't happen. Yeah. It, it was hurt. It was, it was hurt. It was, it was, it was a hurtful thing for me, I would say. But then I saw his goodness and I was like, but you're real. So something, something is here.

Yeah. And after year after year, school was a kind of a safe place. Abuse kept happening. At school, as I got older, I started to get into sports and sports was a thing. I was like, okay, I'm in sports. I'll never forget the day I broke my dad's heart. He's a football player. And he's like, you don't play football? I was like, no, I don't get the point. I was like, wow, I just broke my dad's heart. But then I found track. I was like, yes, this is it. Like, I can prove that I'm a man. Yeah. And so I started getting into sports. Little did I know the enemy was going to come and use that. And there's going to be a bunch of sons that are in track and field dealing with the same thing. Struggling and having attractions to other guys. And I was like, oh, wow. And I learned how to kind of be a wolf in sheep's clothing. I learned how to walk the talk, like talk to talk, walk the walk. Yet hoping like, Lord, one day, one day you're going to come save me. And as I got older, one of the things that I realized in this, in my journey was how much I kept it to myself. Yeah. And how unsafe I felt. For me, I felt church was unsafe because they were just preached about it, but they never would talk to me about it. It was like I was the pink elephant in the room.

And they knew it, but they didn't know what to do with me. And there was moments where I remember getting caught watching porn on my grandfather's, in his office where he encountered the Lord on his computer. And like nothing was said to me. And I think that was a perfect opportunity like to father me in a way. And then as it kind of got, I think those moments of like checkpoints of like, okay, the enemy started to mark unsafe places. He's like, oh, well, school's not safe, Jaylen. And now church is unsafe and family is unsafe. And so what it did was created this world in me and I started to build and protect myself because if nothing was going to change, that was my mentality at the moment, then I just have to protect myself until something does. Or, mine was like, or I'm out of here. And it was that kind of either or. I think when I was, I grew up in Fort Worth, born and raised. This is my city, my town, my home. The Lord finally answered my call. He was like, hey. You can go to Dallas and this is like college time. And I was like, yes, I get to be free. I just want to go away. And I think the Lord was like, okay, you get to go. And I really went kind of head in to that world. At the time, I didn't know what it was. People were saying like, oh, are you gay? I was like, no, I'm not really. I like girls still, you know? But this attraction to guys just happened to kind of linger. I kind of wanted to like do away with it and hopefully that it would transform

or something would come about. But it was there, it was always there. And when I was in Dallas, those moments of just like perversion kind of overtook me. I was away from family, being invited to parties and places that like, it was, I would say Sodom and Gomorrah in like real time. Being invited to parties where I've seen people out and about that were at these parties and it looked like you probably wouldn't even believe. And all the while, like loving and pursuing God, which made absolutely no sense to me. It was conflicting what was happening within me. And I'll never forget, I was a part of this nonprofit where we would like do outreach and ministry and we would go and prophesy. I'll see miracle signs and wonders. And the topic of the gift of the spirit, praying in tongues came up. And we was like, oh, like, no, maybe that's not for us. Then that's not a thing. We had this guy come in and he was on set to preach. He came in wet, it's summertime. And he comes in wet and he's like, we're like, why is he wet? Like what's going on? And he was like, I have to change my message. And we're like, what are you talking about? And he's like, the Lord told me to preach on baptisms. I said, I'm not doing that.

I already have something planned. If you want me to do it, make it rain. And the Lord made it rain. And so he prayed, he preaches. We all, well, they all get baptized in the Holy Spirit. I'm sitting here like this. I'm like, Lord, is it gonna happen? Is it gonna happen? I ended up waking up on the floor and I'll never forget when I opened my mouth to pray, my heavenly tongue came out. And I didn't realize, but that was a first sign for me in a while that God heard my prayers. That he would infill me with his spirit. Yeah, he would infill me with his spirit. He would give me a language that was incomprehensible to my human mind and that he still had his eye and his hand on me. And then it became this journey. He brought me to this church and I was worshiping and still living in sin, still living a double life, praying, crying, many suicide attempts. I remember driving in Dallas. I'm like, Lord, I'm done. And I remember this one moment, I was like, Lord, I was on the side of 75. I was gonna run out into the street. And I was like, Lord, I'm done. But I came to a point, I was like,

Lord, if you never heal me, I'll still love you. Like just for no other reason, but just to love you. And I remember feeling a shift in that moment. And it was started this journey, leaving the church and the Lord kept bugging me to come back home to Fort Worth. I was looking at this job. One of the bosses was like, hand me these pastors. Like, I think you will like them. And I'm like, I don't know who you're talking about. Like, I'm not gonna lie. And I'm like, I don't know who you're talking about. Like, they just came from Austin and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, why are you telling me this? Because I wasn't trying to come back home. I just wasn't trying to come back home. And then later on, somebody moved in town from California to come to this church they were talking about. And I'm like, okay, Lord, I don't know what's going on. And she was like, hey, I gotta invite you to my church. And I'm like, what do you call this church? And he's like, Mercy Culture. And I was like, okay, like, why are you telling me this? And all the while, I'm still like wrestling with God. I was like, Lord, will deliverance ever come for me? And I remember she invited me to a team night. That's where I met you. And I remember coming the first time. And I was like, wow, the presence of the Lord is here. Great for Fort Worth. I'm never coming back here.

Great for Fort Worth. Have a good time, guys. And then the Lord started like hounding me. He's like, Mercy, I'm seeing it in movies. I'm seeing it on phones. I'm seeing it everywhere. And so I was like, okay, Lord, I'm gonna come. I'm gonna come. I'm gonna come to this place of mercy that you're asking me to come. And then I think it was another team night. And I was like, I was in there. And I think it was the same service where Pastor Jasmine, she's up on platform and she's worshiping. And before I remember going to that team, I was like, I just want to go to a place where I can worship, like when we feel your presence, we will not move on. Pastor Jasper's up there. She's like, somebody pray for this moment. We're not moving on. I felt it. I was like, where am I? This is crazy. And then Pastor Landon and Pastor Heather gets up and they set this line. It was like, we're just here to walk you down the aisle to your groom. And it hit me in my gut. And it's like, the Lord was taking this spiritual list that I had growing up in church. I'm going to deal with this. I'm going to deal with this. I'm going to deal with this.

And I'm like, mm-mm, mm-mm. And I was like, okay, Lord, I'll be here. And so somebody was like, hey, I have to meet Pastor Landon. I was like, I'll meet that guy soon, one of these days. And mind you, I've been worshiping and kind of living double lives, like being on platform and on the next day, like sitting and I'm like, and I've saw this in many other people. And I'm like, Lord, will you save us? I mean, we're going to come in front of you. We had a conversation and mid-conversation, he was like, you're a worshiper? And I'm like, do I lie to my future pastor right now? In this church? And I was like, I've done it before, you know? I was like, I've done it before. And he kept the conversation going. He's like, hmm. And he just kept the conversation going. And at the end, I was like, yeah, I feel like I'm going to come here. I'll never forget when you told me, he was like, when you're ready, let me know. And it shook me because usually I've experienced with like, oh, you have this gift. We need this here, come. And that began this process of this journey of freedom for me. I remember that season where I came into Mercy Culture. The vision is to take people from corporate encounters of God to daily personal encounters of God. And what I didn't know was that after all of those years, I would say 20 plus years of like suffering, like internal suffering, that I didn't know the solution and the key was daily encounters. And I was like, I'll never forget, I was like, Lord, you were so kind. Like you protected me from pastors and people who were trying to manipulate my gift or make a pass on me.

Like there's been situations like that. And it was like, no, I'm going to bring you to a house of mercy to receive mercy, to receive the love of God and to encounter me. And in that process, I wasn't on the worship team. I remember serving on the door with signs and just coming every Sunday and plugging in and daily encounters. And it was just one day, things started to shift in my life. And I just remember like, oh my gosh, it's the key. Like I've heard the word preached and my pastor, our pastor don't compromise on the word. Like there've been sermons where he's preaching about biblical sexuality, he's talking about the truth and from a heart position. And I remember just coming on and I'm like, what the world, like I didn't, it didn't feel as it once did before. Because I'm encountering the Father who loves me so much, the Holy Spirit in tandem with all these things. And I'm like, oh man, like this is totally different than what I've experienced before. And that's, yeah. There's more to the story. I remember me sitting with you and Pastor Jackson was like, who knows everything about your life? And I'm like, nobody, because I lived, I kept, I kept it so close to the chest, you know, just trust and abuse and all these different things that I didn't, I didn't trust people. I didn't trust the church. I didn't trust no one. And that began this journey of like living in the light. And she was like, you don't have to tell me, but find somebody who you need to tell your whole story to. And it was, began this journey of deliverance and more freedom. Because when it just, when you're inside internally, you just kind of, you're in this cave of like self-condemnation and abuse and trauma and lies and truth.

It's very hard to get into, but once you shine that light into it and you start bringing people in and that's when I really started to see true deliverance and true freedom and transformation in my life. And so I stand here today because of all of that journey, it's a lot, but it's kind of like a high level. Oh man, I'm so stinking proud of you and love your stinking guts. What'd you feel like when you told me, cause you told me a pretty raw version of your testimony. You went to a coffee shop, it took a while. What did you feel as you told your pastor those details of your journey and your story, your testimony? Yeah, it was, it was, the Father is so good, I would say, because he knew at what level I could handle. And I've never been in a position like that where the Lord is telling my, you know, my pastor at the moment she's like, hey, who are you gonna tell? And the Lord's like, tell her. I was like, okay. And then what the Lord did, he gave me a list of people to trust, to start telling. Which I feel like is a key, you know, especially if you're walking through this this journey, it's like sometimes for some people, for me it was a process. And you ask the Holy Spirit, who do you need me to tell? Yeah, who do I need to walk? Who's gonna walk with me through this? And so I remember telling her and I remember he said, you need to tell your pastor. I was like, uh-huh. I've never heard that before, you know, and I remember sitting down, I remember sitting down across the table from you and I remember you just checking on me first before you even wanted to hear anything. I remember you speaking life and truth over me before anything, before I even shared anything. And I think that was life-changing for me. I thank you for that. Because

for some people, telling your pastor that you struggled with same-sex attraction is just not on the board. Like they would kick you out and they'll put you in the back and hopefully pray that the Lord will do something. Yeah. But it was like this journey of like, hey, like you're in a place where you're okay, where you're safe, where you can kind of settle in. And it was just this amazing opportunity just to sit in front of my pastor. I felt honored that you would trust me with it and then it becomes my responsibility to steward it. I think a mistake that people try to make is no one has the ability to fix anyone. Right. Yeah. And I can't tell you how many situations that I've been in as a pastor. I'm like, I don't know what to do. And people are struggling with demonic stuff, want to kill themselves, losing their mind. Like what do we do? How do we fix that? Yeah. I remember one time I'm leaving the parking lot and I get a phone call and they're like, pastor, it's a bad scenario. It's the hardest scenario I've ever had to deal with pastoring. And I pulled out of the parking lot. I was like, Lord, I don't know what to do. Literally what I said. And the Holy Spirit said, just love them. I'm like, I can do that? And when, I don't remember how many conversations I've had with you about Jay, where like we have strategically surrounded you and just make like, how are we doing here? And not like waiting for people to like get into a bad place, but like stay at a good place. How are your daily encounters doing? What's God telling you? And those kinds of things, it's not like, hey, are you struggling with being gay today? Like that's not the topic of conversation. It's how's your soul? What's God saying to you? How are your daily encounters? And then from those places, I'll never forget, there was a young man in my earlier days of ministry, worship leader,

which we'll touch on this in a second, but this comes against a lot of worship leaders. Oh yeah, major. And he calls me like 1130 at night and I'm like, okay, if I'm going to call 1130 at night, this one's important. Yeah. And he was just broken. Yeah. And he said, I thought I was delivered. And we'll touch on this in a second too, because there's so many lies that the enemy does. And here's what I said to him instantly. I'm like, I don't know what to do, Lord, what do I do? And what came to my mind was I said, when's the last time you prayed in the Holy Ghost? Oh, that's real. And he's like, uh, I don't know. So like, you haven't been. Yeah. I'm like, let's just pray in the Holy Ghost, because I don't know what to do. We start praying in the Holy Ghost, peace of God falls on us. And I said to him this, I go, where's your temptation? He goes, I don't feel it. And guys, I have used that spiritual warfare strategy from that moment for over 10 years of battling. And this is great. I don't care if it's homosexuality, I don't care if it's literally demons. When you are being harassed, pray in the Holy Ghost. And then people are like, that's not my theology. Who cares when you're being attacked by demons? Like I love Mike Tyson, like everyone's got a plan until you get punched in the mouth. Now it makes sense. This is not even a theological thing. This is a spiritual thing. If you are Satan and you wanna harass people and they don't ever get peace, convince them the gifts of the Spirit aren't for today. Literally the gifts of the Spirit. And so it was something that we all surrounded you with. And then the other cool part, I would encourage just, you know, pastors watch this, leaders watch this, like make sure you're trustworthy. with your team, where you care about them and their soul more than their gifts. Yes. Yes. I've lost track how many people we've said, like, love you, but don't need your gift,

don't want your gift. And just the patience. We had many conversations about you behind the scenes of stewarding your soul. The other thing, to finish that thought with pastors, is make sure people are whole. Nobody's going to be perfect and no one's without temptation, but make sure that they are whole before you put people on your platform. The other thing I want to highlight is how gnarly was the enemy's attack on your and my relationship. It's like for years, you were surrounded with a spirit of offense. I remember one time, I think I trapped you in the car. You did. Where we, I was like, go to a restaurant, he can leave. We'll just go for a drive. And we just drove around Fort Worth talking and, I mean, it was attacked from racial stuff in the 2020 days. There was friends that got offended, mad, I mean, a swirl of stuff. And the strategy of the enemy was to pull you out of this house of mercy, covering spiritual authority in this place that you're spiritually growing. I mean, guys, that's what the Jezebel spirit does. I wrote in my Jezebel book 15 years ago, you'll be at one church and it's amazing, you've never grown so much, God's moving, God's blessing you, you have one conversation with one Jezebel and now you think you should leave, you don't trust your pastor and you're doubting the call of God in your life about one conversation. One conversation, one podcast undoes years of relationship and God encounters. That's demonic. Very demonic. And so I remember saying to you, I was like, what if the enemy's attacking you? Because we're supposed to be in unity one day and we fought together for relationship And now you're leading at a high caliber, a high level, and I love it because it's real, it's authentic, you're a strong spiritual leader.

And it wasn't a fake put together, fake it till you make it thing. It was we prioritized relationship. So what I want to lean into real quick, and Jay, you can start us off with this and we'll talk about it as a group, okay? But you're all in ministry. This is something that attacks so many worship leaders, so many creatives, and there is this balance of ministry you're called to, but we minister from a place of freedom and authority. Not that everybody's not perfect or doesn't have bad days or is not tempted, but there's a difference between having moments, struggling and temptations, and then like the double life living in a place of bondage where you've never been free. You've never had a deliverance moment. You are giving into this. This is your lifestyle and you love the Lord, but you are not dedicated. And it's so important that the stage stays holy. So I want to be clear with my words here. Not that any person is perfect. I struggled with pornography for years, had to go to Heather when she's pregnant with our first child and expose it. I had to pursue deliverance and freedom. I had to attack that thing. And so you don't get to choose your temptation, but you do choose how you respond to it. And so, Jay, what would you say from someone that was used for a gift and then came into a place where you had a season where you were just a son, and then even like you even put yourself not because of sin, but the Lord told you to sit out for a year last year, which was like a huge hit on our team because of who you were at that time. But it was just a moment of obedience that the Lord told you to do it. And we're like, bro, we're supporting what God told you to do. Which I believe that was an act of obedience for your future of being there. You would never have to be sat down because you wouldn't sat with the Lord for a year. Just awesome.

It's great leadership. I love it. But what would you say, what would be seasons and times where someone isn't ready? They are ready. What did hurt you at times? What helped you at times? What are your thoughts? Yeah. One of the things I feel is seeing the person more than what, if we say that the house is for the Lord, then we ask his heart, I would say for the house. and also for his people. And I think one of the beautiful things was that he brought me into a place that I was surrounded by people who encountered the Lord, that heard God and had a heart for his house and the people that served it. And I think about those who are currently in worship and who are struggling and have like nobody to go to. And my encouragement is ask the Lord to highlight somebody whether it may be somebody in your house or maybe outside like go to somebody and talk to them. Cause I remember there's times where I've been put on platforms and I'm like hurting inside and I just wanted somebody to come. I just wanted somebody to be like, hey, I see you. Come with me, come sit with me. And not like I'm gonna sit you down and leave you alone but like come sit with me. And I have many times I've seen everyone who was on this podcast and many others just sat with me during the process of like, how's your heart?

What's going on? What is God saying? I think that works. Being a community, you can't do it alone. The enemy would try to tell you that you're the only one going through it, that they won't understand, that this is not a safe place. I think that was one of the biggest things that the enemy was kept chiming in my ear was like, this is not safe, this is not safe, this is not safe. I'm like, but I got to deliver it. Like you're doing work here. I hear you, I see you moving and your spirit is here. And so like, don't believe the lie, believe the truth. And what the Lord is saying, stand on the word. Cause sometimes your mind would kind of take something and twist it, but also be a part of community. I think that's what helped me as well. He brought brothers in my life as well. I'm like Danny and my friend Franco and Darielle where I could truly have brothers and tell them my full story and them not do this to me. Not hug me. I've been a part of places where I think they kind of stunted my freedom. Cause I remember being a part of a community where they would say, hey, share your testimony with this person. And the guy was like, I shared it with him. And one, he used it against me

because he thought I was going for this girl. He said, hey, you know, he's gay, right? Shattered me. Horrible. And then, then also felt like I remember sharing it and they didn't embrace me as like, like I was something that could get onto them. And I remember when the Lord started talking to me like, tell your brothers, tell these guys. And it just gave this freedom of like, oh, it's safe. Yeah. A relationship that I once sexualized is now pure. And so there's this journey that he walks you through of like purifying and sanctifying relationships. I saw it with Pastor Jasmine. I saw it with Pastor Danny. I saw it with you. And like him, like, oh, he's like, no, you're sanctifying relationships, restoring relationships. So I think- What were you guys looking for as you stewarded Jay, knowing your stories and his, how'd you guys steward his life in worship? You wanna go? You go first. Well, I would just say one of my favorite scriptures, it's in Proverbs and it says, those who conceal their transgressions will not prosper, but the ones who confess and repent will find mercy.

And so in our community, something that we're always looking for is just the heart posture of repentance, godly sorrow, living in the light. And so we try to create an atmosphere where people know they can bring their stuff, their temptation, their whatever, when they fall, they can bring it into the light. There's a safe place for them to come and say it, confess it. So we're trying to create that type of atmosphere. The only way we can create an atmosphere like that is by us being authentic about our struggles and our testimony and bringing our things into the light when they come up. And so thankfully that has been our atmosphere, but that's what we were looking for with Jay, is Jay, you don't have to hide. We got the same testimony as you, and there's a bunch of other people in our community that have the exact same testimony. And if we're all testifying and bringing things into the light, Jaylen knows, oh, I can do that here. I can talk about these things here. And so it was always just looking for, will you bring it into the light? Will you come and confess it? Will you come and tell us that you need prayer because pride month is this month

and you need somebody to partner with you in prayer because the temptations are knocking because that's what's in the atmosphere right now. Like many months, like in May, leading into June, where we check in on Jay and he'd be like, I need you guys to surround me in prayer. Fast, help. So it was like, let's pray. Let's go after it together. But we're checking in on him. He's bringing things into the light. And I think that heart posture has made it easy to continue to trust. Jay to be a minister in the house of the Lord. It's not that he's perfect, that he never has temptation, that he's never made a mistake, but it's this constant, I need to tell you guys something, I need to bring this into the light. And then moments where God speaks to us things about Jay. And Laura would be like, check on Jay, or he'll give us a dream. And then Jay still is honest, you know, in those moments and not hiding things. I think it's really important that you separate, I mean, you know, people ask me all the time, like, well, how do you deal with someone who's struggling with homosexuality? I'm like the same way you deal with everyone else. And so like, I want to be clear. We're not talking about like, when can someone struggle with same-sex attraction? We're talking about when can someone struggling with sin? And there's a difference between that. And again, temptation isn't sin. I wrote that in my gay awareness book and like, I've had people harass me online. They're like, yes, it is. I'm like, well, Jesus was tempted and knew no sin. Right. Yes. Bet. Okay. I always said to my kids, he's like, no dad, no dad. Okay. Here's my point. My point is, is if Jesus was without sin and he was tempted, it means your temptation is not sin. So it's how you respond to it. And then when you keep giving into sin or temptation, it becomes sin, that becomes bondage. And so we don't set anyone down for ministry because it makes us look bad. Why we do it is because we care about the soul of the person first. I had a pastor friend whose worship leader had sexual sin, and it wasn't homosexual

sin, and he was telling me about the story. He's like, what do you think I should do? I'm like, you need to set her down. And he's like, here's what he said, it's horrible. But he's like, but I don't have anyone else. And I was like, you're compromising her soul. You're compromising the purity of the platform of what will get into the people. How in the world is a worship leader going to lead people into intimacy with the Lord when theirs is broken? And so we have to prioritize the people first. And then people are like, okay, well, how long do they need to be free? And that's like asking, how long should you date? There's not a timeline. When people are like, we dated for two days. I'm like, that's weird. And then other people are like, we dated for six years. I'm like, that's weird. And so it's not about amount of time. It's about a wholeness. And so when are they whole? When are they strong? What's best for them? And so you don't wanna have fear based warfare. If you lead worship, you're gonna be attacked. If you do a podcast, you're gonna be attacked. If you do testimony, that's fear based warfare. What I mean by that is that's leading spiritual warfare through fear rather than faith or the fear of the Lord. So we get attacked when we wake up in the morning. It's not about if we tell our testimony or not. The enemy comes to kill, steal, and destroy, and we have victory in Jesus' name. And we overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. And so I wanna encourage people, it's not about being perfect. It's not about not having temptation. In fact, I trust people more when they're sharing their temptations. When they're like, hey, this is stuff I'm going through. This is what I saw. This is what happened. And that's how we're able to bind together. I wanna encourage people that are listening to this podcast. If you wanna spiritually grow, do not tell your leaders when you have fallen. That's fine. We want you to do that. But tell them when you're struggling. Tell them in the temptation. Tell them in the fight. And that's where you will see the greatest amount of spiritual growth is learning how to fight better in that moment. Let's talk about this real fast. What are things that are helpful when people are struggling with this, and what are things that are not helpful? What are helpful and not helpful? Fire away, any thoughts that you have. I think the first thing that comes to my mind, you already touched on this a little earlier, but right after my deliverance moment, I got filled with the Holy Spirit a month later and speaking in tongues. That is the most helpful thing. I don't think I would have been able to walk out my freedom without that gift in my life and operation. And I was this young 20-year-old who didn't even know what it meant or even how to use it. It was

just the Lord was teaching me. And so many moments when I was in temptation using that gift to pull me to a higher perspective or to invite the Lord to come into the room, that is so helpful, speaking in tongues. I would say a non-helpful thing is in an attempt to love the person affirming the sin. And we were talking about this right before we started recording about how if we would have had people in our life that wouldn't have been honest about what scripture says about homosexual sin or about temptation, about all of it, then we probably wouldn't be free right now from our situations. And I think the danger is there's a lot of Christians, especially right now, that they love people. You love your kid, you love your brother, your friend, whatever, the people that you know that are struggling and you just want to be kind to them. And so in an attempt to be kind and not ruffle feathers, you won't be honest. And it's not helpful to not be honest. You can be honest about the word of God and speak the truth and love people well at the same time it is possible and is necessary if we want to see people free. I would double down on that. And I would encourage people that are trying to live Christ-centered lives to not go to churches if their pastors aren't honest. Absolutely. So if your pastor is not honest from the pulpit or not honest privately and prefers affirming, that is a progressive or what we would call a lukewarm church. Yes. And you could literally lead into very, very quickly heresy. And so Romans 1 talks about a day where men will call good evil and evil good, and then talks about celebrating what is evil. You're seeing this huge right now. And I'm not talking about just United Methodists and Scientologists, but in mainstream denominations in the white church and the black church, of affirming this and beginning to celebrate it. And that's where you get into a spiritual level, because there's spiritual warfare involved. And what I wrote my book on is that the challenge here is that we're spiritually warring against demonic spirits. At the same time, we're loving people. You know, it's the same thing with someone struggling with Jezebel. And so like you said, casting demons out. Well, there might be people like that. That's so mean. How could you use that word? Because you had demons in you. Exactly. And it wasn't mean for the man that had legions of demons when they were casted out.

Yes. And so what sometimes people say is mean, it's actually only mean to demons. It's kind to people. Deliverance is kind. Deliverance is beautiful. Yes, it is. Can I tell a testimony in that? Please do. So we do for AXL, our creative community, we do creatives incentives every year. And I think it was last year, there was two girls that came that were living, actively living in the homosexual lifestyle. They were in a relationship together, came to the event, and they just heard about it, just signed up, showed up. And all throughout the event, the Holy Spirit kept putting on it on people's hearts to share their testimony about homosexuality. And so one person gets up, testifies, another session, somebody's testifying. It was like just popcorn testimonies happening the whole time. But we're being honest about being delivered from homosexuality and same-sex attraction and all that stuff. And at the end of the event, we got a feedback form. We get feedback from everybody and they left a comment. She was basically saying she showed up with her girlfriend and she grew up in church, never heard anybody ever talk about homosexuality, never talk about it being wrong, never even came up. This was her first time being in a Christian atmosphere where this topic came up. And because she heard the testimonies, they realized, oh, they shouldn't be together. She breaks up with the girl after the intensive. And I don't know where the girl is, but gives us the testimony, writes about it. I'm like, man, you mean to tell me you grew up your whole life in church and you never heard this one time in the name of probably not offending you or hurting you. You hear about it one time, one weekend and you get free. It's crazy. It's crazy because I feel like when pastors are not preaching about it, you're presenting a false reality. Reason being is because you bring them in, you will them in to meet this Jesus and you give them the word and then they read it and they're like, hold on, the life I'm living, but my pastor's not saying this. He's affirming it. It's contradictory. It's a spirit of confusion that I feel like it settles on people. Well, maybe my pastor don't believe it, then I don't have to believe it. And so it creates bondage in this church in a way. And I'm like, no, if your pastor is preaching the truth, God is going to be God, whether I like it

or not. And I'll never forget, it was one moment, I just remember thanking the Lord, crying to him. I said, God, I thank you that you never changed and you're still the same. Whether my emotions, my orientation, my sexual. whatever it was, I knew that you're the same God. And when I finally came to know you, you were still the same. As I'm reading in the Word, your countenance, your character, your heart for me, how you love me, it was still the same. And I have pastors that preach the Word of God, and I'm like, oh man, I'm reading the Word of God, and it's aligning. And like, oh, you're shifting me, you're molding me into who you're creating me to be, not what I want you to be as God. And so I think that's the thing. I would say this on top of what Jay's saying to pastors, is there's multiple ways to say something. For those who don't know, Jay helps my wardrobe. And if you think I dress good, it's because it's Jay. If you think I dress bad, it's because of Jay. He said I had some rogue days before we started filming, which you actually didn't clarify what you meant by that. Okay, I'll work out the fence later. Anyway, but it would be like going to someone and mocking their outfit, okay, versus helping them in an area. You could do it two different ways. And it's the same thing when you're teaching on this stuff. We can say what the Bible says and teach what the Bible says, but again, in First Corinthians, it says that many were homosexuals, but they were washed, and how we choose to teach that and testify... And sometimes, I'll be honest with you, I'll be preaching at Mercy Culture, and I'll start hammering some sin stuff. And then people get up on their feet and start shouting and clapping. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I want to be clear for the people in the room. And they're not shouting because they don't like you. And they got their own sin. Or sometimes in the middle of it, I'll be like, all right, let's start shouting about homosexual sin. Yeah, heterosexual sin. You know what I mean? It's like those podcasters that love doing exposing accountability ministry, but they never talk about their own sin. I can never hear their podcast about their own real sin and temptation. It's just everybody else's sin. You know what I mean? And so we have to remember to take the plank out of our eyes. And so it's important how pastors do this. It's almost like when you're training or disciplining your

children, you don't want to do it in a way that there's spite in their heart. You want to do it in a way that shows them and then pulls them out. Even when I'm preaching about abortion, I'll try to come in like, hey, someone in the room, multiple people in the room have had abortions. So as I'm preaching about the murder and the Molech worship that is evil and wicked, now I've got to minister to the girl's heart. And Jesus did such a great way of this where he spoke, showed people grace and mercy, and then spoke truth to them at the same time. So how we do that is really important. Any other things, what's helpful, not helpful? Yeah, I've seen you do that. And I think in my process, it has helped with the notion of like, oh, this is a safe space. Because being a person, you probably experienced this before. If you're dealt with this journey, like you're in a church and they're hammering in on same-sex attraction, homosexuality, you're like, oh my God. And people are like, yes, yes. You're like, oh, snap. Am I safe? If I even tell them that I'm dealing with this? And then I would literally see you say, hold on, hold on. Wait a minute. Let's talk about it with the same fervor. Let's go after it. And I'm like, okay, yes. We're all in this together. We're all here to be refined. We're all here to be replenished by the Lord. And so I think that helped, especially as a pastor caring about the sheep's heart and addressing it across the board. And like, hey, no, no, no. This is a place where you can... Yeah, I would say it's not helpful to make homosexuality the greatest sin. Yeah. And this is something you do so well in preaching and teaching our congregation is that it's all sin. It's all terrible. And actually the greatest sin is pride. And so coming from someone from this background, the enemy can always come with the shame of, oh man, the church has made it the greatest sin or they affirm it. Either one, greatest sin or affirm it. And so if you're in a church where it's the greatest sin or they preach that it's the greatest sin, you could feel that shame. And so it's been so freeing to be a part of a congregation that you level the playing field.

No, there's heterosexual sin. There's homosexual sin. There's tons of different sins. And so I think it's not helpful to make it the greatest sin. Yep. I mean, this is kind of in the same vein. I feel like I got a soapbox here. I'm going to try not to get on it too high. But I'm thinking about how when you make it, this tension of when you make it the greatest sin, or sometimes even in the affirmation space that you're talking about, what ends up happening is you communicate to people that you don't have faith that they could be delivered, that they could be set free from it, which is really a dilution of the blood of Jesus. And it like... makes me angry. Like, to dilute the blood of Jesus, that scripture that you were just referring to, many, many were, but we've been washed. And it's like, there's this lie in this space that, especially amongst Christians, the people who say you can be a gay Christian or whatever, that whole camp, what they're really saying is the blood is not powerful enough to actually set you free. And I, you know, I've seen people get delivered in a moment. I've seen people have five, 10 year journey of deliverance and freedom. But what, what is just never going to be true is that this is the one thing that the blood can't deliver you. It's just not true. It's not real. That is the biggest thing that irritates me. I think about this whole scenario is that, like, I'll post something on social media and then you read the comments and it's like, well, honey, like, you know, you can come back, you know, or, or the Christian saying, I'm so glad you found that truth, but you can be a gay Christian or, or, um, that's just not possible. Like so much of that's not possible. And like, I just want to shake people and be like, where's your faith? Where is your faith in the blood of Jesus? Like it is powerful enough to break every sin, every bondage, every chain of the enemy. Like it's either the full gospel or not at all. Or not at all. Yes. And it's like the enemy would try to, um, shame people or, um, like condemn or scare people not to share their testimonies. Like, I would say like, it was, it was rough leading this week, you know, because you're thinking

about kind of what you're saying, like the comments and what people were saying, like, oh, they're not really saying, oh, they're not. And it took me to this moment. I had an encounter. Um, and there's many people who are speaking out about their testimony, sharing the goodness and the freedom of Jesus Christ and what he's done through us. Like a Jackie Hill Perry is one of them. And like TikTok like rakes her over the coal and says, she's not really, she's married with kids and loves the Lord, you know, all these things. And it blows my mind because I had this vision one day I was, um, in my encounter and I saw her, um, with a, with a sword and she was fighting. She was doing good. She was doing good. But then the, the troops start coming more and more and more. And then she started to stagger a little bit and more start coming. She started to stagger and they tried to encompass her and it stops. And the Lord said, um, she would win if y'all would tell your testimonies. Wow. And I was like, whoa, because people don't think it's possible. Yes. And then we're here at this house and then like, I'm seeing, I'm running into people and oh, I, I dealt with this and I'm free now. What? You too? Like, oh yeah. What? And it's like, they're all, they were kind of all hidden in a way. But he's like, no, I felt like the Lord is like, no, no, no. There's a remnant of life that I'm doing in this community and in this way that I, of overcomers. And we will share. Because when we don't testify again, it feeds the people. They don't believe that it's possible. They don't believe that the blood works, that it still works. And then you have to start, um, shifting, changing, perverting scripture, taking things out, moving things around to justify the thing that you feel like you're stuck in. Uh, and that's a really dangerous place to be. And so I love what you were saying, Jay, is just, we have to testify. We have to say what God has done in our lives. And I love it. I love when people come and they get, they're getting like, there's a young lady who came into our church recently, who's married to another woman. And we were processing, talking, all the things. I love getting to say to her, do you know, there's so many people in this community, that guy that was just on stage, leading you in worship, that's his

story. He'll tell you about it afterwards. You know, like, I love that there's a place that's been created where we can be excited to share and to testify. Yeah. So let me recap what I've heard us say. It's the power of living in freedom comes from sharing your testimony. Shame can't live where a testimony lives. I heard speaking in tongues and where the presence of God comes. And I encourage everybody who cares about your bad theology. We're telling you from three people that have lived this, four people that have experienced this, like there's power in it. The apostle Paul says, I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all. So if it's a gift God has, why would we not want a gift God has for us? I'm hearing have accountability and have people that you can share and entrust with. The Bible says that there's freedom in keeping with repentance. I've talked about exposing lies of the enemies and things that we're dealing with, which really comes into like being in community, having trusted pastors that will tell you the truth and preach the truth in a community. that is biblically based are things that I'm hearing. And then I'm hearing that there is true deliverance and freedom, and it looks different for everybody. And it might be moments, it might be years, but all of it is in Jesus. And I think my favorite thing I heard is the blood is enough. And so I would end that by encouraging everyone, no matter what sin that you are dealing with, to take communion more. There's a guy I was talking to on the phone, hadn't talked for a while, and he was talking about just being harassed by demonic spirits, by the enemy, just everywhere in his life, family, marriage, grandchildren. I said, how often are you taking communion? He's like, well, I haven't been to church that much. And I was like, okay, well, what does that have to do with communion? And he goes, I could take communion, not in church. And obviously he had a Catholic background. I was like, dude, you could take communion whenever you want. But I'd love to close with communion. And I encourage people that are listening, you don't have to be a pastor, you don't have to be in church, but plead the blood of Jesus. Declare it being the highest authority. Remember what God has done for you. And that will help you break off religion. That will help you break off shame. That will help you break off the lies of the enemy. And just remember, you're devaluing the cross. If you think that your sin is greater than his blood. And so, Danny, I'm gonna ask you, thanks, Jay. When you were sharing your testimony and you were talking about the Lord walking you through

deliverance and telling you things to pray, whatever you feel in your heart, we always end my podcast by praying. When I was a little boy, my dad would always have pastors and spiritual leaders pray over me. I feel like there were significant seeds. And so I want anyone who ever watches this podcast to have my friends and ministers that I love and admire minister to them. And so I'll just have you just lead us in communion and then pray through, pray anything that you feel of prayers of deliverance to encourage people to do what you did in any way that it feels right in this moment for you to do. Okay. You want to lead us? Yeah. Okay, Jesus, we hold on to the bread. Jesus, we love your body. Lord, you said, do this in remembrance of me. You said that the bread represents your body that was broken for us, Lord. Jesus, we love your body. Oh, Lord, we love your body. Jesus, I'm so thankful that my body doesn't have to, didn't have to incur all the things that happened to you, Lord. You took it for me. Lord, I thank you that you bore all of our diseases, all of our sicknesses, even disease of the mind, sickness of the mind, Lord, you bore it on your body. Jesus, we believe in the power of taking communion of your body, Lord. So we honor your body and we remember what you did on the cross. Let's eat the bread. Lord, we hold your blood high above our minds. We hold your blood high above our bodies, our spirits. Lord, we hold your blood as the highest authority over it all. Jesus, you were high and lifted up. Your blood is the highest authority. Lord, I believe in the power of your blood. I have seen the power of your blood. Oh, I believe in the power of your blood. Wherever you are, wherever you are listening to this podcast, just say, I believe in the power of your blood, Jesus. I believe the power of your blood that it can break every chain of the enemy, Lord. It can break every contract of the enemy, Lord. Anything that the enemy had for us, this blood can break it, Lord. Oh, I thank you, Lord. There's not any chain, any stronghold too strong for this blood to break, Lord. So, Lord, we honor your blood and we believe in your blood. Let's take the blood. And, Lord, I pray over everybody who's listening to this podcast, Any person listening to this podcast who has struggled with same-sex attraction,

who has struggled with homosexuality, Lord, I pray that the power of your blood would break every assignment of the enemy. Oh, Lord, I declare over the people listening that they will be free and they will stay free. In the name of Jesus, I thank you that your yoke is easy and your burden is light. I thank you that chains and bonds breaking is easy in your presence, Lord. Oh, it's easy in your presence, Lord. And so everyone listening, if you have struggled with same-sex attraction or homosexuality, I want you to just envision your heart and just put your heart in your hand and say, Lord, here's my heart. Jesus, here's my heart. I give it completely over to you, Lord. My sexuality doesn't define me. My past experiences don't define me. My sin doesn't define me. Here is my heart, my whole being, Lord. And Lord, if there's any part of my heart that is stained from sin or stained from the enemy, Lord, I ask that you would clean it. Just ask the Lord to clean it right now, to wash it with the blood of Jesus. And give your heart wholeheartedly over all of it, not one part left for you or left for the enemy. Give your whole heart to the Lord. Lord, we give our whole hearts to you. Every part of it, Lord, every part of it, Lord, every memory, Lord, every memory, every memory we give to you, Lord. Oh, Jesus, I thank you that we are robed in righteousness. So, Lord, everybody listening to this podcast, I ask that righteousness would just enter the room, wherever they are, that the Spirit of Jesus would enter that room and clothe them in righteousness, Lord. And I declare, who the Son sets free is free indeed, that you will be free and you will stay free in the name of Jesus. Amen. So, Lord, I pray that you would baptize our friends with the Holy Spirit. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And just like you have thousands of people in Mercy Culture Services at random times, no need to lay hands on them. No need to lay hands on the enemy. No need to lay hands on the enemy. They don't even have to understand it fully. You just have to receive gifts that are from you. Yes. I pray that gift that's the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Scripture says to build yourself up in the most holy of faith by praying in the Spirit. I pray that you would give them that gift to strengthen their spirit. Yes. I pray that for my friends right now in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. There is one way to God and it's through Jesus. But in Jesus, there are many ways to connect with him. You can commune with him while creating, denying your flesh and feeding your spirit, ministering to his heart through adoration, meditating on his

scripture, getting alone to be with him, meeting him in creation, asking him questions and listening for his response, learning something new about him, moving into an encounter with him, making the crooked way straight, serving his people and remembering what he has done. Your daily personal encounters with God change everything. Discover how you connect with God. Text ENCOUNTER to 59090 to take your assessment today. If you desire to spiritually grow, I want to invite you to join me on this journey. Subscribe to Mercy Culture or you can follow me on socials at at Landon A. Schott. And if you value this content, I would really appreciate it if you would share it with a friend. I'm Landon. Thank you for joining me for Spiritual Leadership, where we're helping leaders become spiritual leaders.