Don’t Let Failure Hold You Back | LIVE with John Maxwell

Hey, welcome to another episode of The Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast. Can I promise you this one's gonna be special? It is the first time ever that we've done a live podcast recording and we are talking to the premier greatest, best known, most prolific teacher on leadership, I would argue in the history of the world. He is a personal hero to me and kind of like a spiritual father to me. And so I've got a live audience here welcoming the one and only John Maxwell. Thank you, gosh, thanks Craig, thanks. This is as good as it gets and we're gonna talk about your book, How to Get a Return on Failure, Fail Smarter, Return Stronger, this is a book that you're gonna wanna read. What's interesting is, how many books have you written, John? 92. 92 books, and this is your third one on failure. Failure, which makes me ask like, did the first two fail? The first one sold over a million copies, right? Yeah, that one sold over a million copies and the second one only sold a half a million, so it was a failure. That's when you know you're John Maxwell when a half a million books is a failure. But I wanna ask you a lot of questions.

I wanna start with something fun because I had a big failure the first time that we actually talked. You were, I started listening to John on the Tape of the Month Club years ago and we grew up in our church listening to that every single month. And so you were and are the top leadership voice in my life and you actually called me and I failed. Yeah, I did. Well, we have a mutual friend, Gerald Brooks. Yes. And he was telling me about your work and so we were in the car and I said, well, Gerald, I'd like to talk to. He said that you were listening to my tapes, I didn't know that you knew me or anything, so I said, well, let's call him. So we called you and I said, hey, Greg, this is John. So I picked up my cell phone and I heard a voice that said, hi, this is John Maxwell and I wanted to talk to you. And so I thought, sure, this is one of my friends playing a joke, so he hung up on me. He literally did. Hey, but just like Jonah, I gave Craig a second chance. Oh, that worked good, didn't it? So my hero calls me on my personal cell phone

and I hung up on him. And so that was one of my big failures. Yeah, thank you for your book and I wanna ask you about that and other things. And you have talked openly about how you've learned from failures. Totally. Is there a failure that you've had that is the least favorite to talk about? Yeah, I think probably my first big ministry failure. And I think it's my least favorite to talk about because it affected me. I think when we start and we fail, those failures are even greater impacting because we haven't yet learned and matured that there are lessons that we can learn and there's improvement that we can have out of the failure. And so it was with a staff member that I hired. I loved him. He was very gifted, talented, and it was just the two of us and we just did everything together. In fact, I was naive. I said, we'll do ministry all our life together. I mean, I'm just a kid. And about a year and a half in, he just messed up and I had to fire him. And I just never imagined that scenario. And so when I did it, I just, the failure itself is bad enough,

but the wrong response makes it worse. And so I made a wrong response to it. I said, I've learned my lesson. I have to hire staff, but I'm never gonna let him get close to me again. I'm never gonna pour into them like I poured into him. I'm not gonna give and love like I did. So I hired that next year, two more staff members, and I just was very plain with it. I said, look, you got a job, I got a job. You go do your job, I'll do my job. We'll meet at the Christmas party. And so I really kept distance with him. Well, that lasted about six months. And I realized how stupid a decision that was, that the good news is if you keep distance with them, they'll not be able to hurt you. But if you keep distance with them, Craig, they'll not help you. And I made a decision there in that end of that first year that I would set myself up as a leader to be hurt. because the only way I know to have great teams is to love them unconditionally and give them everything I have. And once in a while you get a negative surprise, but by and large, the help that you receive from them is much greater than what the hurt was. So, but I let the hurt control how I led for a year. And I look back and I think, I went back to both of those staff members and apologized,

and said, look, I didn't do this right. They became very good and stayed with me. And so it came out, it came out okay, but that's the failure maybe that hurts the most only because I just think early failures hurt us greater because we don't yet know how to respond to them and get a win out of them instead of a loss. Well, I'm glad you told that story because I think a lot of leaders do, you wanna treat people well, and when a relationship goes bad, a lot of times leaders pull back. And we'll stay guarded for the rest of their leadership. And that's really an unhealthy place to be. And one of the lessons I pulled out of that too, that really has helped me a long time is, in fact, it's in the failure book. I talk about the fact as a leader, you need to have what I call upfront expectations. And one of those upfront expectations is that there'll be times when you fail. And the reason why you need to do that in the beginning is because I learned failure at the beginning, my response to it is the worst. At the beginning of any job, my insecurities are at the highest. Can I really do the job? I've never done that job before. And so what happens if I mess it up? And the fact that if I don't have

those upfront expectations of failure, when I fail, I feel I left myself down, I left the leader down. And a lot of times, I think it's important for a leader to talk about his or her failures. So that when I fail as the new kid on the team, I say, well, you know, I didn't do that right, now I wanna do it better. But you know, Craig didn't get started. He didn't do it all right in the beginning either. And I think if we don't have that model, you've heard, I mean, what do you say all the time? People don't want a perfect leader, they want an authentic leader. And I find that very helpful to let them know that I've had losses too, and it's okay. It's not the failure, it's how we respond to it anyway. So from that early failure, it's really helped me, especially on what those upfront expectations are. So I'd love to talk more about that because Mark Cole's here. Mark's not just a professional colleague, but he's a friend of yours. Oh, he's a beautiful friend. I've heard a lot of people say, you really can't be close to the people that you lead with. And would you agree, disagree? And if you disagree, how do you develop intimate relationships in a professional environment

that are both professional and strong? Well, I disagree completely with that. Mark and I have been together about 26 years now, and he's literally my closest friend. Yes, my top leaders have been with me for 28 of the years, and they're my closest friends as well. So I totally disagree this. I think there has to be understanding. And I sometimes tell the story of the two hats. I've got a leader hat on, and I got a relationship hat on. And I don't have them on at the same time. And when we're doing leadership stuff, I'm leading. I got the leadership hat on, and it's gonna be a lot less relational. It's gonna be much more functional and operational. And here's the things we need to do, and there's gonna be a lot of clarity in it. And then there's times when we're gonna go out to dinner, and now I got the friendship, the relational hat on. I love the story about the owner of a company who wanted his son to take over the company, but his son was terrible with people. And so he was going through the factory one day, and he had his leader hat on, and his son was berating some of the employees. And so his dad looked at him, and he said, son, you're fired. And he said, come to the office. And so he came to the office, and when he walked into the office,

he took off his leader hat on and put his father hat on. He said, son, he said, I heard you just got fired. I, what can I do now? What can I do now to help you? And I've always loved that, because I think there has to be respect. And I think respect is based on knowing where a person is at that point in time. And I think that Mark has been an incredible follower, an incredible servant, an incredible servant. In fact, now he's now, I'm passing the baton. off him and he's really running everything. He's gonna own, he's gonna have it, he's gonna be the man. And I told him, I said, for all these years you've served me now I'm flipping that and I'm gonna do everything I can to serve you. In fact, I want him to succeed more than I wanted myself to succeed. And yeah, well, you can't do that unless you're close to them, unless you care for them. And it's a risk, it's always a risk and it doesn't always go well. You get hurt. You get hurt. But all great relationships deserve the possibility of getting hurt. And I think that's a really a big miss because again, when they get close to you that's when they can help you. Anyway, you can help each other.

I always say, you're probably not leading if you're not hurting at some point. I mean, leadership is always painful. It's lonely. If you're a leader, one of the first things I like to tell a leader is it's not easy. If it was easy, everybody would lead. And it's lonely and you have to make decisions. Sometimes people really never understand but you can't let them in on the reason you made the decision because you're leading as a whole people and sometimes the whole doesn't allow you to do all that. And so I had a mentor when I was in my probably about 26 who told me one day, he said, John, there are not two good consecutive days in a leader's life. And when he said that to me, I was a little young and naive and I thought, oh, surely there are. And now that I'm 79, I would say there's not really one good day, consecutive day in a leader's life. I mean, because every day, the only decisions you make are the hard ones. I mean, decisions have to be made at the lowest level. So the easy stuff, when somebody comes to see you, it's usually, it's a hard thing. Yes, yes, it is. When my closest top staff members call me, I always take a deep breath. Yeah.

What's coming? Because it usually is a hard step. Because any other time, they're settling and taking care of it too. Exactly. Because really, you should not, I mean, decisions, all the things in leadership should be made at the lowest. They always need to be pressed down and made at the lowest level. So I think there is a lot of loneliness. Now, I do want to say this, though. The loneliness I feel as a leader really causes me to want to spend alone time with God. And I'll have to say that it's a gift because I have found him to be a friend that sticks closer than a brother. And I just found him to be able to unconditionally love me when other people can't unconditionally love me and say I understand when other people can't understand. And so it's kind of like you've got to go through that tough time to then go release yourself to him and let him give you some love time. That's powerful. And I've seen you do that, your very intimate relationship with God. And I want to hear a little bit more too because every leader here aspires to impact more people, make a bigger difference. And there are so many blessings of that success. And those are the visible things that people tend to see.

But there's a private cost that a lot of people don't know until you're actually there. Tell me about what's been hard on you personally in all of the outward winds. Well, I'll tell you what's tough to me is you don't want this to be true, but it's true. Success separates. And I don't like that. I've never, I mean, I can go back to, I remember when I started off doing leadership conferences, oh, and the 17 people came to hear me. I mean, I'm just a kid and I'm young. And what I loved is during the break times, I'd go down to the front and I'd just hang with them and we'd talk, we'd just talk, talk shop. I was a pastor, they were a pastor, and it was just fun. And I can still remember a few years later down there having my favorite time, just hanging. And a lady came up to me and she said, I just bought your book, would you sign it for me? And I said, sure, I'll sign it for you. And the next conference, there was several, would you sign it for me? And I remember about three conferences later, I'm not hanging anymore. I'm up here, there's a book line and I'm signing books. And I was glad to sign the book for them, but I just said, I got separated. I got separated from hang time. And then they wanted pictures.

And what I found is success is a terrible separator. And I don't like that. So here's what I know. If you want to be a star, then you want a big separation gap. I mean, when you go to hear your favorite musician or whatever, you look at them and say, I could never do that. They're more amazing than anybody. I mean, and you're all enthralled. If you really want to be a star, you want to be here and you want everybody to be down. You want a separation. But if you want to be a friend, you don't want that separation. And that's why most of the time I walk out on the stage and first thing I say is, hi, my name is John I'm your friend. All I'm trying to do is close the gap. Because if you want to impress people, talk about how good you are and how amazing you are. And if you want to impact people, talk about your failures, talk about your misses, talk about your losses. That's where they connect. And so that's a part that really I've never, I just, that's why I hang. I just really, I tell leaders, when you stop loving people, you really need to stop leading the people.

Because you'll take advantage of it, you'll manipulate it. Now you're going to, because you're in a power position, you could move people for your advantage instead of, I mean, what leaders are supposed to do is lead for your advantage, to help you, to lift you up. And so yeah, there's parts of it that you look at and you just, I do everything I can to combat all the things that I feel are not right in a leadership world. And sometimes I think I do a really good job on it and sometimes I get lonely. Because I think I don't do, didn't do as good as I would have liked to have. Well, I want to compliment you and tell you that, like from our perspective, when we have different people that have come in here that have accomplished a lot, and you are at the top of the list, our team looks forward to hosting. Because everybody behind the scenes says, John is the real deal. He just cares about everybody. And so for those of you that maybe admire John from a distance, when you actually get close to him, he's even more admirable in who he is. I want to know, backstage today, you are loving on people that you're meeting for the first time. What goes on in your mind and how do you help them genuinely feel?

It's not just words, but how do you help them feel that connection in a few moments? I can tell you why. Because every one of them are adding value to you. You are a better leader because of every one of them back there. True, 100%. And you're not gonna do it without them. And it always amazes me at leaders who some time, they just kind of think like they're self-made. And I want to, every once in a while somebody says, well, you know, I'm a self-made man. And I always say, well, I'm so sorry. I mean, really, I want to call them delusional. But I'm so, because honestly, if you have made everything yourself, you really haven't made that much. You know, teamwork makes the dream work. And so what happens is I feel that I don't like positions, titles. I don't like any of that stuff. It just seems to me like, it's kind of like the message with Peter. I think, I know there are 12 of us, but I think I'm number one. And it got him in trouble. And well, then think about the washing the feet. Remember, Peter said, you can't wash my feet. And you know, he wasn't opposed to having his feet washed.

He just looked at Jesus and said, you're a little bit above me. He, you know, he had a hierarchy. So I wouldn't let you, you know. But I mean, if Thomas the Doubter wants to wash his feet, he'd say, you know, give me a bath. You know what I'm saying? So it wasn't, you know, at one time I said this and you'll take it because it's in context. You'll take this right. I just look down on people who look down on people. I watch a person how they, I mean, like in a restaurant. When you're served, I'm a sucker for single moms. I'm a sucker for elderly people that are, and I watch, I want to know how much if I, basically I'm paying because I just, I can control the tipping if I'm paying. And I just don't, I don't like to see people not treated well. I think it's a character issue. And all I've got to do is look at the mess in my life. I mean, it doesn't take very much to be humbled. Somebody asked me the other day, I said, well, when's the last time you've failed? I said, well, within the last week. And they said, you're kidding me. I said, well, maybe within the last day. I mean, don't we all have mess ups and misses? And I mean, I don't even. sure I like to be around people who don't fail. You know what I'm saying?

They're kind of disgusting, aren't they? Don't you sometimes just look at them and say, could I kiss your ring? But anyway, I mean, look at Jesus. He was a servant leader. I mean, look who he went to be with, and who wanted to be around him, and who felt comfortable with him. And I just think that he's a good model to follow. He is the model to follow. So when you think about Jesus, he recruited people that others overlooked, built a great team with unexpected people. You have done that again and again. When you meet someone, what is a quality that's really important to you as a leader that's easy to see in someone quickly? I think the most important quality is humility. I mean, if somebody- And how do you spot humility? Well, I think that it's their approach to conversation. I think you can very quickly, I mean, I've met people who could hardly wait for the first two minutes to tell me all the things they accomplished. And I look at them and I say, they're probably very successful, but they're not too humble. And then I've looked at other people who came in and they wanted to know about me or asking questions. And the reason humility is so important is because if you don't have humility, you can't be teachable. And if you can't be teachable, I don't know how to mentor, develop people that are not teachable. And I had somebody that they say, well, how does it feel to have everybody follow you? I said, I have no idea. I've never had everybody follow me. I have a whole bunch of people that don't want to follow me. I have a whole bunch of people, I don't want them to follow me. And it's almost always because they just don't have a humility and a teachable. You know as well as I do, you take somebody that's teachable and you can work with it. And they can improve and life can get better. And you usually can find a place for them on the team, but you show me a person that's not humble and teachable. And honestly, their days are, I think they're very limited. One of the ways I see that when you meet with people is, and this is crazy with John. So John is the expert and my hero, and I try to ask questions, but I have to fight you for the air time because John is asking questions to me because he cares. And so someone who does all the talking is probably not humble. Someone who's asking a lot of questions is showing honor and is teachable. It's the only way you can learn. I never have learned talking. I've learned asking questions. And I think it also, here's what I know. And see, as I look at all of you today, if I had 15 minutes with you individually, just 15 minutes, and I could ask

you just a couple of questions, every one of you have something to teach me. Yes. And I know that. And in fact, the thing I don't like is sometimes I have to rush through relationships or sign a book and you move on and you don't get, and I sit there and I think, I just probably signed a book for somebody that if I had 10 minutes with them, they could help me. Every one of you can add. So I look at every person as my teacher. If you look at every person as your teacher, guess what? To every person, you're a student. And if you're a student, you do ask questions. And that's how I learn. And I mean, Craig, I am so happy for, God is using you in such an incredible way. And I'm so proud of what you've done at Life.Church and what you're doing in the leadership world around the world. And He's given you an incredible platform. And one of the things I really, really love about you is I feel that you have that. Every time I'm with you, we're there to learn from each other, grow from each other. And we do have a little bit of a question duel going on. You're hard to beat. In fact, when he says I'm hard to beat, he's never beat me. I just, it's no problem. I just do the elder card on him. You know what I'm saying? You know, let your elder people go first. And you know what I mean? When I have loss of memory, it's your turn. You know what I'm saying? But no, the reason why is, well, I mean, he was in there in the green room and he's working on, he's showing me how to really do better with my teachings and my lessons and how he files. And I'm sitting- It's not exactly right. So just so you know. We were brainstorming together. I was not showing him how to be better. No, he's, well, first of all, he's over there talking to Mark and I'm over here at the side kind of getting ready for you doing what spiritual people should be doing. He was praying and the pastor was shooting the breeze. And he's giving Mark some things that he's doing with his teachings that I don't know how to do. And I'm sitting over there and I said, I'm sitting at the wrong table. So I, but I'm grabbing him and I said, now I'll pay you, I just, but I got to get my team around you because he has something to teach me.

And I promise you, when I learn it, and he says I can learn it in 30 minutes, which I think that's probably, he's being nice to an old man. I can forget it in 30 minutes. Let's get the, there's there's between forgetting and learning. But honestly, what happens is I can hardly wait because I know, I know in 30 minutes, an hour, whatever it's going to take, you're going to take me to a whole new level. And let me just say this, my greatest, somebody asked me, say, what's your greatest passion in life? Speaking, writing, leading? No. Learning. I'm 79. I'm still learning. I'm still asking questions. You know, when people get elderly, a lot of times they lose their curiosity. They lose their hunger. You know, and, and, and. Yeah, I would say, John, in the past five years, you have gotten even noticeably, it's hard to say because you are the best of the best, but even noticeably better. Like you continue to get better and better and better and better.

And it shows. I want to follow up the first question I asked you about what's an important quality that's easy to spot quickly. I'd like to know what's a really important quality that's not easy to spot, that takes a while to bring out of people? Oh my gosh. For me, it's growth potential. It's hard for me and- What are you looking for and how are you trying to determine that? Yeah, when I interview somebody and think about putting them on the team, more than anything else is I would like to know what kind of potential they have to grow. Because I've brought people on before who really were hungry, but they had what I would call a short lifespan on growth potential. Either they got less interested or distracted or whatever. And to me, the ones who can stay with you the longest, and because here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to keep growing. So let me explain to this. If you don't keep growing, we're going to be separating. Because I am not stopping my growth for anybody else. Because average people kind of want you to hang and be average. And I'm not going to do that.

I mean, I wasn't called to be average. I wasn't gifted to be average. By the way, you were not either. So that's not just for somebody up on the platforms during the speak. Every one of you are created with spiritual gifts and in the image of God to do great things for God. And I don't, I think that, I think if I'm going to steward what God has given me, what two words do we all want to hear someday? Well done. I mean, can, I can't even imagine him looking at me and saying, well done. I mean, I'm right now dealing with a little bit of a hip problem and I just, I'm in therapy. I'm good, I'm fine. But I mean, when I get to heaven and he says, well done, I'm doing flip flops. I'm starting a gymnastics team up there. Because I mean, well done from him. I don't know. If there's somebody that's going to compliment me and me more than I can't even figure what it'd be. So well done means grow, improve. Never violate his promise for me, his gifts in me, and his thoughts toward me. I don't want to violate him. I want to rise to his level of expectations. If I can't, I'm doing my best. Yeah, and you're doing a great job.

I'm going to give you a long setup to this question, so stick with me. I think one of the best ways you honor God is by loving people. And you're so good at this. Whenever you interact with anyone, I want all of you to think about this, that sometimes even a brief interaction can be almost like a divine exchange, where you're blessing someone in ways that you may not even know. You're imparting life to them. You're encouraging them. Like brief moments can be incredibly impactful. And I've had some of those with you. When I'm with somebody, I'm trying to read what is God doing in their life in the moment. I'm trying to ask a few questions. And sometimes literally I'm there to be a blessing to them. Other times I'm actually trying to find out, are you a candidate to do something with me in the church? For example, Christie's on the second row. I watched her do a huddle with just a few people before a youth event. And I said, there's something special there. I went and asked her a few questions and said, have you ever felt like using your gifts full-time in ministry? And a few conversations later, she's in an interview. because I saw something.

Yes, you saw it. I saw something in there. And so what I like to do is try to get below the surface as quickly as you can. I want you to talk to me about what do you ask people, what are you doing in interactions? Because you always say, I wanna add value, and you always do. If you talk to anybody here for 60 seconds or 20 minutes, they're gonna walk away a little bit different or encouraged. What's going on in your mind and how do you do that? Just open up your brain and dump it on me. Let's talk about servant leadership. The servant in me asks the questions. The leadership in me looks at the questions and says what kind of potential is there here? What kind of possibilities? You know, it's the coming. Now I wanna stop, I have to point this out. Servant leadership. So you've been doing this forever and you're considered the expert and you still see yourself as a servant. Oh, totally. And so you have to reject what everyone else tries to crown you with. Well, that's a bunch of BS. I don't mean that wrong. Go ahead, just tell us how you feel.

We'll hold back. Honestly, God, you're going to be an unhealthy person real quick if you let people. And many people become that. Oh, if you let them put you on a pedestal. The trajectory toward leadership is dangerous. I'm writing a book now. I'm writing, I have 14 books to write. And in fact, I'm talking to God right now about it because I'm 79 and I know you aren't supposed to do deals with God, but I'm doing a deal with Him right now. And the deal is I've got 14, so you gotta let me hang for a while longer. You know what I'm saying? Because I got, and I mean, I really, I mean, I got 14 in the line with their hands up in the air saying write me, write me, write me. And what am I to do? Ignore that call. So, and I have a book called, that I'm writing, it'll probably be out two books out, three books, two or three books out, called Success Stabilizers. And it's a book on, if you become successful, you have a real tendency to do stupid things. I mean, you would think that would be, you think a successful person would be wise enough to not do, but successful people, they get a liberty about them,

they lack of accountability, and all of a sudden, they're in stupidville. And so how do I, with my success and the benefits I get in success, which I do, you do, anybody that has success does, how do I stabilize that? What kind of life rails do I build? And so when you said you're talking about, people will put you on a pedestal if you're highly successful. I mean, people do that all the time to me. They'll, you know, oh, you're amazing. You know, well, no, I'm not. So, the only, if people will put you on a pedestal, I don't even think you can help it. I mean, my name is John, I don't go by titles, I don't have parking places, I don't, but a lot of times, I never even had offices. I mean, I just kind of walked around. But anyway, kind of lost, you know, out in the parking lot, and somebody go get him, you know, or somebody says, get the poor old man, dear Lord, you know, give him something to eat, give him something to eat, you know. But if somebody puts you on a pedestal, it's your job to get off. And the way you get off is serving. The stabilizer of pedestal living is serving. You show me a, I mean, okay, if you're successful, you'd usually make some pretty decent money.

Well, what's the stabilizer for money? Generosity. Yeah, I mean, you can see where we're going. You could, okay, you get power when you're a servant. You got all this kind of power that you get. Well, what's the accountability? And so, it's a book of like. You need to write that one, yeah. Oh, I will tell God that you're expecting that one now. Yeah, and Craig's a little younger than me. Craig's a little younger, so this lifespan. But you see where we're going? And I think that it's very important for us to be aware. And I think that's the other big miss. I think so many times leaders have people that don't tell them the truth. And with my inner circle, I have an inner circle and an outer circle, two different circles. Inner circle work with me, so they're kind of in the game. Outer circle don't work with me at all, but they love me dearly and they know me dearly. And they come from a different perspective. But I need to be, I mean, I'm all the time asking, okay, what am I missing? Help me, because we all have blind spots. And I had a. The other day he said, well, I don't have a blind spot. I said, you just showed it to me. What do you mean you don't have it?

We all have it. Well, if it's a blind spot, it's a blind spot. My name's John, I'm your friend. This isn't difficult. I don't see it. Well, if I don't see it, how am I going to get help? I'm only going to get help by you or you. Somebody's got to talk into my life, raise their hand, say, John, let's have an honest conversation here. Because when somebody says, I wrote a book called A Self-Aware Leader, and I did that tongue in cheek, because there's no such thing as a self-aware leader. Anything I'm self-aware of is because somebody was kind enough to come into my life and help me with a blind spot. And the more you do and the higher you rise, the harder you have to work to get honesty because people will tell you what you want to hear. Yeah, and so it's my responsibility to let my people know you have to be honest with me. This is not going to be acceptable, you just kind of trying to give me answers you think I want. So I think it's a, you know, somebody would say I have an open door policy. I have an open ear policy. I just say, talk to me. And I'll tell you right now, I'm in a situation, I'm 79.

Well, I know what happens with people when they're successful, they stay too long. And I'm more scared, I'm just sitting there saying, what happens if I'm losing it? Because they stay too long and who wants to see some old man up here losing it in front of you? It's kind of like I need a restroom break or something, you know what I'm saying? Come quickly, Lord Jesus. I mean, there's got to be something that bails us out of that process, don't you know? So I mean, I tell my team all the time, I say, now listen to me very carefully. You have to tell me because I don't even think the people know they're losing it or they would have left. And I have a real fear of staying too long or having people feel sorry for me, you know what I mean? Well, you know, he isn't any good anymore, but he was good. And so I'm really on him all the time. I'm saying, now tell me if you think my writing's not where it needs to be or my speaking or my leading because I'm going to hit a decline. You know, I don't want to hit it, but I'm going to hit it. And if I don't have people help me, I'm afraid that I'll pass it by. My father lived his 98th year, worked full-time through 95. At 92, we were having lunch. I wish you could have all met him. He was such a great leader.

I miss him so much. But we were 92, we were having lunch, and he said, son, look at me. That was one of my father's favorite expressions when he got ready to talk. He wanted a captive audience. And I looked at him. He said, I've been thinking about this. He said, I've been praying about it. You know, he's 92. He said, I believe my greatest days are still ahead of me. Isn't that beautiful? He's 92, and I know people at 22 can't say that. But I want to say that with integrity because I really want to do my job well, but I also want to be cognizant when you come and pass your time. I'm writing another book that's going to be entitled Is There a Finish Line? And I think for most people, there is. I think for exceptional people, there's not. And what I mean by that, I think if I have a self-imposed finish line, you don't want to get so much money or when I get a certain age, I'll retire, whatever. The problem is when you cross that line, you're finished. And that bothers me. And so I don't want to have a finish line, but I do have to have people around me who will help me when I, because there'll be a time when I won't be able to do what I can do.

And then I want to have the grace to listen to them. And then I want to have the grace to be the greatest encourager of others that I possibly can. In fact, I'm in the sage stage of my life now. And what that means is I've grown a lot of fruit on my tree, but now I'm in the orchard business. I'm in the orchard business. I have no desire to put in, I got fruit, I'm loaded down. I got fruit, I got fruit. Now I want to get fruit on everybody else's tree. Do you know what I'm saying? I mean, Craig, when I see you, I get so excited because I see how God's using you. And I see how he's working through you. And I see how you're expanding and how your influence is going out of the church, which is a beautiful thing to where lost people are, secular people, business people are. And the same thing with Mark, when I see him growing. And I honestly, See, I get more excited about your success than I do my own success. It's kind of like I already know what I've done and that's kind of a story and now are we done with that? I mean, I can give that to you in five minutes and then could we get on with life. But when I watch how you're doing it, it makes me so fulfilled. I mean, you're one of my orchards. So are you, you're one of my orchards.

I just would like to go to heaven with a whole bunch of trees. Yeah, I got a lot of them. Thank you. Thank you for being that for me. I've got two more questions for you. The world has changed so much and changing so quickly. Is there anything that as a leader now you're shouting louder today into culture or the world than you were this different? Anything new that you're saying more often with more passion? I've seen a shift in leadership that has not made me happy. I would describe myself as leadership sad. And I'm leadership sad because I think people in leadership positions are not living up to their responsibilities as leaders. And I wrote a book about a year and a half ago called High Road Leadership. And then Chris Hodges and I wrote a book on Jesus the High Road Leader. And I think that the subtitle on High Road Leadership is bringing people together in a world that divides. And I'm here to tell you it's not a leader's responsibility to divide people. It's a leader's responsibility to unite people and bring them together and get the best because we're only better when we're together. We're not better when we're mad at each other. And I've said that the church is to make people

hungry for God, not angry about God. And so I really have a heart to see us return to the fruit of the Spirit. I mean, just if you have the fruit of the Spirit in your life, you're attractive to people. You know what I'm saying? And there are some people, they just don't have the fruit of the Spirit in their life. And I just say, do us a favor. Don't tell anybody that you're a Christ follower. You know what I'm saying? You know, in fact, I did a message recently and it was entitled, Forget Being Saved, Could You Be Nice? You know what I mean? Yeah. Could you just be, I mean, maybe salvation's a little heavy for you right now. Could you just be a nice, just a nice person? Yeah. Yeah. And that actually leads to the final question I wanted to ask you. And I just want to say to our podcast audience, I'm thrilled and honored that we've got people of faith, people with different religious belief systems. Totally. And our goal on this is just to present great leadership principles. I love it. And that's it.

I am a person of faith and so are you. And so we don't push that, but we also don't hide it. And it kind of drives who we are. But we also know this message will play in boardrooms with people with all types of different backgrounds. Yeah, we value everyone. Every single one of them. And learn from people of different faiths, all the time, all the time, all the time, all the time, without apology and with deep passion. That's right. But I do want to hear from you, just as a follower of Jesus, what does that mean to you and how does it impact your leadership? He changed my life. I've always loved theology and I've always loved apologetics. But I don't think apologetics wins people to Christ. I think changed lives lead people to Christ. It's kind of like when Jesus healed the blind man and they kind of wanted a theological treatise from him of what happened and who sinned and who didn't sin. I'm so sorry, I really don't know any of that, except just let me tell you what happened. I was blind and now I see. To me, that's the contagiousness of our faith. Our faith does something for people that they can't do for themselves. Our faith takes people who were lost and it helps them be found,

who had a life that lacked fulfillment and meaning and it gives them fulfillment and meaning. Jesus said, I've come that you could have life comma and have it more abundantly. I mean, which side of the comma do you live on? And so I love sharing my faith because Jesus changed my life. And it's kind of like, if something good happened to me, I just gotta tell you, it'll happen to you too. I mean, why not share? It's called the good news, not the bad news. And so I really am committed to personally sharing my faith. I try to sow spiritual seeds every day. I don't lead people to Christ every day. My goal is to lead 200, personally, I try to lead 200 a year to Christ. I mean, not here in this setting, but I mean, but I'm around lost people all the time. You understand, my world is with lost people now when I transitioned over to the business community. And we just passed this week, Craig, four million people who have now come to Christ in the last six years, four million. Amazing. Isn't that beautiful? And... And somebody asked me, he said, well, how can you do that? I said, well, it's very simple. You hang with lost people.

You can't do that, hang with Christians. In fact, I'm right now going, since I'm getting a little bit older, I'm going through this kind of dilemma. It's not a dilemma, really. It's just, I'm pausing. I really love going to heaven and spending eternity with Jesus, but eternity with Christians could be a little long. Just, I love lost people so much, I don't know, it's just gonna, I'm gonna have to have some adjustments. You know what I'm saying? Because it's gonna be, I mean, wouldn't it be great in heaven if you got like a week, a month, that you could go to hell and try to pull some of them out of there? Yeah. I mean, I just, now, I'm not spreading a new theology here. I don't, but I mean, I just think, man. Here's what, I'm gonna say this someday. The more I'm with lost people, the more I fall in love with lost people. And the more I'm with lost people, the more I fall in love with God. And I like falling in love with God and with lost people. Yeah, well, it shows. I think, yeah, there's a million reasons

why you're so good with people, but you genuinely care about them. I love them. And you add value, and so the fact that you care about them genuinely and you add value to their lives, that earns you the credibility for them to listen. And then they start to see why you're different. And it's not just because you're a nice person, but because you've been changed by the grace of Jesus. That makes you incredibly effective, and so. It's the deal, but it's the deal different. And just, I consider a successful day for me based on the seeds I sow, not the harvest I reap. Right. I'm a seed sower. Yep. Can I tell you something? If you sow seeds, you never have to worry about a harvest. The harvest, okay. Harvest is automatic, but seed sowing isn't. Right. And there are so many people that get up and they say, boy, I hope I have a good day, and I hope somebody does something good to me, and I hope something, hope I'm luckier. I don't know. And they're all over on the harvest side. And I just say, no, if I sow enough seeds in a day, it'll all come back in a matter of time.

Well, the book is, How to Get a Return on Failure by John Maxwell. You will want to get this book. And John, I just want to tell you personally, for your investment in me. I love it. And your investment. You've sowed a lot of seeds today, and we're different and better because of you. And I want to say to our community, I genuinely value you. It's an honor that you would give me 20 minutes a month to speak into your life. If I have a guest like John, it's going to be 50 minutes, because I'm going to give you a little bit more. But I'm going to do my very best to bring content that adds value to your life and your leadership, because I genuinely care about you. If I could meet every single one of you, I'd tell you that you really do matter, and you're getting better, which is really good. Because guess what? We know that everyone wins when the leader gets better. Thanks for being a part, and thanks to our audience today, John Maxwell. Thank you.