S2 E2 Angels, Demons & the Unseen Realm Explained

What can demons do? Are they real? What do they look like? Demons can possess things. Demons can enter into people and cause horrible, horrible mental distress. I trust Jesus. I'm a believer. Can I be possessed by a demon? The word possession isn't even in the Bible. Where the angels come from? How were they created? When did this happen? The more you look into what a seraphim is, or a terabim, it's spooky. You know, a seraphim, it's a snake. Is this suggesting more spiritual creatures than just angels and demons? It's a small amount of information and it's shrouded in mystery. Today we're talking about angels and demons. I mean, there's so much that we could talk about with this, but I think the most burning questions in my mind are things like, can I have a guardian angel? When I lose a loved one, do they come back as an angel? Can I be an angel? Demons kind of creepier, you know, like, can I be possessed by a demon as a follower of Jesus? I can't wait for Adam to do an exorcism today. We've got to live it. Put it on display. Can't we? What happens? So like, if I'm following Jesus, can I be possessed? If I'm not following Jesus, can I be possessed? What can demons do? Are they real? What do they look like? There's so much in this realm to unpack that. I feel like this is a scary, this is a scary episode for me, you know what I mean? Because there's just so much, and then there's so much stuff I don't want to see that I've seen. What does that mean? Well, like, okay, so for example, a long time ago, and I didn't want to take away from your intro here, but but you did. Yeah, I'm sorry. Long time ago, I'm on a mission trip with about 30 kids. We're in the Philippines, okay, so half a world away. And there's a kid on this trip that is kind of drama-centric, you know, who just loves attention. And so, you know, you just kind of keep your eye on that situation and make sure everybody's getting along and everything. So, one night, this person was middle of the night, I hear this, no, no, no, no, no, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, and I'm like, oh my gosh, what's going on? I run out into the hotel corridor, okay, and this person's on the floor like they won't let me go, they won't let me alone, they won't let me help me. And so, I run over and her mother comes over because her mother was on the trip and her mother comes over and goes, I plead the blood of Jesus over you, and she's like screaming, you know, and I'm like, okay, something's going on here and I'm completely unqualified for any of this.

And so, she's going out, she's going out, and then she turns to me, she goes, plead the blood of Jesus, plead the blood of Jesus right now, and I'm like, I'm pleading, I'm pleading, like I'm loud, I'm just like, I plead the blood of Jesus. I didn't even know what that meant, but all of a sudden, I'm thrust into this, like alternative universe, and she's just screaming and crying, and then eventually like she comes out of it, and I'm like, what just happened? So yeah, that was to me like, okay, so you've introduced me to a realm, I'm completely unaware, was it drama? Was it just her being a high school girl that just wanted some extra attention? Is this something that was of a spiritual dimension? So the more we get into like angels and demons, there's beautiful angelology out there, and then there's some really, really scary demonology out there, and then there's just a whole bunch of junk in between that people are like, well, I believe this, and you know, these are aliens, and like all this stuff, and really getting into like the whole throne room of God, we talk about like seraphim, cherubim, some of it is just spooky, you know, like I prefer having like the little cartoon angels that are like, you know, like touch by an angel, highway to heaven, Michael and then coming up and being like, come on brother, let's talk, you know, angels in the outfield. Exactly. I'll be with a baseball game, let's go. So I don't know, I prefer the Hollywood version of angels in some ways, because the more I get into what the Bible has to talk about with the angels, it's creepy, you know, it's kind of like scary. And I want it, so I want to get into some of like, hey, what does the Bible actually say about this, but before we get there, I mean, what are misconceptions, because I think about, when I think about demons, when I think about talking about that realm, I picture high school in the basement of sleepover, and someone's like, hey, you know, that if you go into the bathroom, you had sleepovers in the mirror. What are we talking about here? Oh, we hung out through the night. That's all. Not sleepovers. They call it the much more sophisticated things, let's hang out and just not sleep. Did the teachers know about this? They didn't know. Okay, so it at the sleepovers. Wait, that's how we spent your time in high school. You went, you hung out and slept out in your high school. - No, not in the high school. - Not in the high school. - You were in high school. - No.

- Like during high school. - But you're sitting here. - You're in high school basement. - I thought you were talking about some totally different. - Okay. - No, in high school age. - Got it. - You would hang out. - Did you think it was a high school basement? - No, I did not. - I thought you were making fun of that term. - I thought you were sleeping. - Yeah. - I thought you were making fun of that term. Okay, I'm still gonna use that term. It was a sleepover, right? And so we had friends over and we talk about demonic stuff, normal high school things. And they'd be like, "Hey, go into the bathroom and if you look in the mirror in the dark and you stare at it long enough, you start to see the face of a demon." - Oh, wow. - And the things that we would come out saying that we saw were super, super creepy. And you get older, you research some of the stuff, and like, what if that's just psychological, right? Like it's a dark, your brain is trying to complete an image that it only can partially see in the mirror. But man, I'm telling you, there's something to those stories

where people claim that they're seeing demons, that things are happening to them, that things are being written on mirrors, handprints on cars. Like, what are the common misconceptions that we have? - Handprints on cars? - You even heard about that one? - What the heck's a handprint on a car? - There's this place that you can go in Pennsylvania where you park your car on what seems to be a flat-level surface. - Right. - And you put your car in neutral and your car will just start to roll. - I need to hang out with this guy. - And so, overnighters at high schools, this is like, ghost busters stuff, right? - Yeah, seriously. - And so you just start to roll, and you don't know why. Like, you think that it's flat, and then people claim that if you put like, I don't know, baby powder or something on the top of your car, you could see handprints pressed down on the car, and it caused, like, that looks like it was pushing it. Now, these are the lore, right? It turns out that the trees in that area actually grew at a really weird, strange angle on this hill. So when you're sitting there, it looks like you're on a level, but it's actually not. Like, if you were to actually take, like, your iPhone with a level, or it wouldn't be level. - But that isn't explaining the handprints.

- But these are the kinds of stories. The handprints, I have not personally seen them. - Okay. - But I'm saying this is the kind of stuff that you hear about, and what's legit? What could be legit? What's absolute myth? And do we have, are there other, are there other, are you fact-checking me? Do you see that? Gravity Hill? - Yeah, Gravity Hill, ghost kids. - It's very Pennsylvania, see? It's, Tyler fact-check me on that. So it appears to roll backwards automatically up the hill. I mean, it's a strange thing. - Oh, wow. - Very strange thing. - I, well, I was thinking there's like a whole, like, side of TikTok that's just devoted to this stuff. Like the unseen realm, angels and demons. There are filters that I've seen that you can, like, turn them on and it's supposed to show, like, the form of a demon. I actually, this actually happened to me. My neighbor asked me to, like, come pray over her home because she had taken a TikTok video and it showed the form of a demon. And then it was, like, more and more stuff. I, we ended up anointing her doors

and, like, I threw away a mirror for her because of what had been seen in the mirror. Wild. But there is, like, a whole world that's just, like, obsessed with this kind of stuff and learning about it and knowing about it. - See, that's what makes this so hard because I want to laugh at a lot of this stuff, but then I'm reminded that the biblical world is kind of crazy. You know what I mean? There's stuff in there that we've rationalized, we've domesticated, and we've said, like, oh, well, everything follows a clear path and it's like, no, there's some really interesting stuff in there that we've got to sort out. - Yep. - And so maybe we'll just kick it off with angels. Where are some passages in the Bible that talk about angels? What do we see the Bible say in reference to them? - From early on, one of my favorite stories, I think it's Genesis 18, where, is it Genesis 18 or is it 15? But where the three people show up, it's, like, God and two people that show up to-- - to Abram. - Abram, yeah. And they're like, at one point, they're like, this time next year, you'll have a son.

Or is it this time next year? Shoot, maybe we should just read it. Genesis 18. - Yeah, I think Genesis 18. - And basically he's like, you're gonna have a son and then his wife laughs, and then they're like, why'd your wife laugh? And she's like, I didn't laugh, and the angel's like, yes, you did laugh, you know? So it's very like, ooh. And I just remember early on reading that, even as a kid, I was like, wow, angels are no joke, you know? They're like, they know what people are saying that are not even like in their, and there's like the three of them are walking around. I mean, it's just like a spooky, spooky thing, you know? Like, it's got gravity to it. - Oh yeah. - You want me to read a little part of it? - Yeah, go for it. - It says, starting in verse one, "The Lord appeared again to Abraham "near the oak grove belonging to memory. "One day Abraham was sitting at the entrance to his tent "during the hottest part of the day. "He looked up and he noticed three men "standing nearby. "Interesting that they're just men. "When he saw them, he ran to meet them

"and welcomed them, bowing low to the ground. "My Lord," he said, "if it pleases you, "stop here for a while, rest in the shade of this tree "while water is brought to wash your feet. "And since you've honored your servant with his visit, "let me prepare some food to refresh "before you continue." - Typical hospitality. so Abraham ran back went to the tent he said to his wife hurry let's get this stuff ready zooming on down they just are kind of hanging out and then in verse 13 or verse 11 I should say Abraham and Sarah were both very old at this time and God promises them that they're gonna have a child and because of this Sarah laughs yeah and here's the response from God is anyone or is anything too hard for the Lord I will return about this time next year and Sarah will have a son crazy and is it the angel of the Lord does it say that it just says the Lord then the Lord said to Abraham interesting because I think that's the Molok Yahweh that's like the angel of the Lord I'd have to double check on it but there's something special like this is like an incarnate version of God that's walking around and then these two other angels that are with him do they say that they're angels the other two is that just kind of what we're inferring based off yeah I think so yeah so that's one example of God in some form with angels yeah yeah yeah being in just human form it's heavy yeah I mean it's kind of like they're walking around like hmm yes you will have a son I didn't laugh yes you did laugh you know okay we know yeah so that was always something that struck me real early is that they're just no joke yeah yeah it's huge well what I think I have a hard time with is like they're not introduced in the storyline of the Bible like humans are humans get like a whole origin story angels don't they're just like there yeah it's like from the very beginning God has angels that like support him and are just around and then send messages for him which actually that's what angel means it's the Greek word angelos which means messenger so they go deliver stuff on behalf of God and speak to humans for God and so that's where it gets into some of the like internet controversy you know like where the the normal or the kind of like conventional understanding is like these angels fell at some point we don't really have a whole big develop story of it but Satan fell at some point took a third of the angels with them and

that's just how we've always understood where like demons come from and how you have like angels and demons but angels were created at some point before time before you know like so we don't even have any kind of understanding of it but then more recently there's been a lot more interests and like the book of Enoch which kind of develops out we talked about that a little bit in the last episode I don't know if you want to go down that road because that's that's really where I think the the big thing is right now that people really focus on like okay so is it just they appear at some point we really don't really know or do we have an actual like taxonomy of like this is how they started and then it did this and then it did this from the book of Enoch and I think even we could get to the book of Enoch and we talked about that a little bit in another episode as well about hey this isn't like a it's not part of the Bible this is like extra biblical and so it you had made a cool reference that it is it's quoted in the Bible yeah the book of Enoch which I did not know yeah but it's quoted but and this is where we got to go back and forth on this because people will say that like it's quoted as the first Peter or second Peter it's in second Peter and in Jude since second Peter and Jude quoting it right but Paul quotes from Aratus you know quotes from like some of the Cretan poets so it just because they're quoted doesn't necessarily mean that they're looking to it for theology right right so it's not giving it authority per se right but just saying here's here's something that they were reading at the time I mean we can pull it up there go that my my like rebuttal will be except that they did quote theology it wasn't just like hey some people believe this it's quoted the references to the angels who are imprisoned right and that comes as it's almost a direct quote from the book of the first book of Enoch and so they what I think they're implicitly implying is this is true whether or not they're saying it's true because it's an Enoch or it's just true and Enoch happens and not to totally nerd out on this but I mean do you take like when Jesus talks about the bosom of Abraham yeah is that theology or is that folklore that he's using to point to a third way that's a good question do you know what I mean so for example Jude might be saying I'm talking about the angels how they were held I think it's all like held in captivity or something like that for the day of judgment is he referring to folklore or at least the surrounding kind of idea behind it that everybody had an understanding of to prove a third point versus saying no this justifies this you know what I mean I do know what you mean I just have a hard time then like how do I know how to interpret anything right but you know you know like the when Jesus says like the bosom of Abraham and he

develops this parable of how there's a fixed chasm between us and you and you want to be able to talk back and forth I mean is that really theology I mean is that really how it goes or is that just kind of a folklorish type of point for something yeah I guess they call that theological accommodation that God would use what may not be technically true but it's in a way that people understand it So yeah, I could see that. And this is where hopefully the people that are into the book of Enoch and studying some of that stuff are really listening. Because my thing would be, why are we spending so much time listening to a book that never made its way into the canon? If we trust the process of canonization, if we trust the process that God has delivered us everything we need in terms of His word, then why are we looking for something outside of it? We ought to go to the Gospel of Thomas. You know, we ought to go to the Gospel of Adam and be like, well, you know, this gives us some really good theology. Like, no, it doesn't. Like, it's outside of the canon that we have right now. So there's almost like, do we trust what God has delivered to us? Otherwise, we could just pick up anything. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff that people have written. I mean, you know, we could go to the left behind and be like, hey, left behind. There's 20 volumes of left behind that everybody devoured. Like millions of people devoured. It's got some great stuff in it. So maybe that's authoritative, too. It's like, well, no. And would, if the Bible were written today, is it possible that they might make a point somewhere to someone and say, well, you know, is it really like Nicholas Carpathius or whatever the guy's name is, right? The Antichrist? Yeah, and so someone could look at that and be like, look, Jesus talked about Nicholas Carpath. So it must be true. It's like, well, no, he's making a point. Yeah. Yeah. So we're talking right now about Book of Enoch, but why?

The whole point, the question is where the angels come from? How were they created? When did this happen? And I think we're kind of going back and forth on Enoch just to say, hey, is this a reliable source we can at least look at to get some information? But I think what I'm suggesting is before we go there. What does the Bible actually say about angels being created? In one verse that I know I had pulled up was Colossians 1, 16. So Colossians 1, 16 is one that helps us understand that he got created everything. This is what it says. Colossians 1, 16, "For through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see, such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him." And so that verse, again, seems to try to capture everything. Everything unseen, everything that we're talking about in our Creatures episode, even right now, Angels and Demons, we're all created by God. And so I think that's kind of like, at least from that verse in the Bible, the baseline. It doesn't give us a lot of information yet about what are their characteristics, what do they do, what do they look like. This verse is really just establishing that baseline of like, hey, God created them. That's super important. Why don't I, I'll summarize the kind of conventional or traditional understanding of where we get Angels and Demons, which is kind of sparse. And then if you want to talk about like the more detailed, you know, second temple. Yeah, I can go second temple. Apostate version. Apostate version? I don't know what that means, but it sounds cool. No, I'm just kidding. I think it's great background information, but as far as it being authoritative, I think you would probably agree to. It's not authoritative. Yeah, not in the same way. It's helpful, but not authoritative. But the traditional way is to understand that at some point in the past, we don't know when, but like God created Angels.

And he's got like a series of these divine beings that we don't know when they came into existence. We know that there are like the Benet Elohim, the sons of God. We know that there are the divine counsel, the starry hosts, you know, like we're not, we're not really sure what those are. There are people who participate with God in both creation. I just didn't say participate, but they are there at creation. They witness it. They're part of like a council of people that God interacts with. And we don't really know much about them, right? And then we know that he's also developed a series of beings called Angels. And the Angalas are the messengers, the people that go out into the world and carry out. They worship him, they carry out whatever his will is, they carry messages. They help him and assist him, whatever he needs assistance with. And we don't know when they were created at some time immemorial, maybe even before creation. I don't know. They're just there, right? And then so the traditional understanding then is that at some point, Satan, who is either part of that divine counsel, or just like a very prominent angel falls, decides to not want to follow God anymore, kind of writes his own ticket, I guess, and just says like I'm just going to do my own thing, and takes with him a third of Heaven, of the Angels of Heaven with him, and they become demons. So that's kind of the very murky, blurry, and really honestly, a very hebraic way of doing things. you just kind of mentioned things very quickly to the point and then just move on. So it's always made people kind of starved for more, like, so where did they come from? What's this all about? And that seems to be the tone and tambour of the Old Testament is that this thing happens, this person did this, and then there's a next thing. And it's kind of like, well, what give me more, you know? So sometime around the second temple, we see a series of writings over about 100, maybe 200 years

that give us backstory on it, kind of write the prequel on it. And so before we get there, I want to get there. That's going to be good stuff. I just want to stick, like, real quick, a few verses just from the Bible that give us, why do people think that a third of the angels? You know? - I think that's Revelation. - Yeah, I think Revelation 12? - It is. - Could we pull that up real quick? Just to see if we're Bible boy. - Let's search it. - All right, all right. - Tyler, Revelation 12 is done. - Here's what I would hesitate with on that, though, is like that in context, that's talking about the birth of Jesus. And so I think it's been misapplied to say that it's a third of the angels. But definitely there were angels that fell, because otherwise where did the demons come from? I mean, even Genesis 6 is an example of angels falling. - And so I think-- - So we know it happened. - I think that that's what's going to be fun to unpack. And I think that maybe the question I'm trying to center us on first is like, why do we even get some of these basic, like this belief about it?

Like when people say a third and they just say it so commonly, like I heard that going on. But for the longest time, it was like, I don't know why. - Where did it come from? - I don't know why I thought that. And so when people say a third of the angels, it's pulling out of Revelation 12. And it's talking actually about stars. I think it's verse four. It's talking about, let's see. - Yeah. - Yeah. It's, this is what verse four says. It's, "Tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth. He might devour her and the child. The moment he was born." So again, my understanding, unless there's something else I'm missing, that's the only verse that's referencing a third. - Well, yeah, and again, I think the conventional or traditional understanding of angels and demons is very sparse. And it's kind of from a few verses here and there. And there's really not much mentioned about it. And so my hope would be is that we understand that that's on purpose. It's not necessarily like an oversight.

Like, oh, crud, I missed, I should've given more. There are so many things about things beyond this world that are just giving us some little bits. And I think that's on purpose. I don't think we're either supposed to know or we could handle whatever the truth is on how this thing happened. - Yeah, and I think, so the thing that the burden I feel is, okay, I know it feels insufficient. You know, there's not a lot in there, but I would be interested in knowing, but what is there? You know, 'cause you mentioned Book of Enoch already and I do want to get into that. But I almost feel like, hey, let's just be real clear. Like, what is the, albeit insufficient comments on angels in the Bible? So we know what the baseline is. And so the couple of verses that I had pulled up ahead of time was thinking through. And I don't really know exactly what to make of it. I don't know if this is very clearly defining the angels' roles. But Hebrews one and two talks about angels, kind of slips them in there. And so the first thing it says, and this even gets a little confusing, Hebrews one verse, what's the, what verse three? It says, "The sun radiates God's own glory "and expresses the very character of God. "And he sustains everything by the mighty power

"of his command. "When he had cleansed us from our sins, "he sat down in his place of honor "at the right hand of God, of the majestic God in heaven. "This shows that the sun is far greater than the angels." Just as the name God gave him, I'm twisting that up, just as the name God gave him is far greater than other names. So that's like one thing Jesus is greater than angels. This section is actually titled that. And it says, "Ver 7, he sends his angels "like the winds, his servants, like flames of fire." So we talked in Colossians that got created them. Now we're looking in Hebrews. And it's talking about, he's sitting them like servants. So we're kind of learning, okay, their role is, they have this servant role. Go down a little bit more, verse 14, even more clearly. Therefore, angels are only servants. Spirit sent to care for people who will inherit salvation, which is just kind of interesting, right? So like that we got their order. There's one more piece that confuses me. So if we don't, I don't know what to make of this, but it says, "For one place the scriptures say, "What are the mere mortals that you should think about them, "or the son of man that you should care for him? "Yet for a little while you made them a little lower "than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor, "you gave them authority over all things."

Kind of looks like it's talking about a temporary, angels having more authority than they will ultimately. I don't know if that's exactly what that's saying. It just, it kind of looks like it's like right now, angels have kind of a higher place, So that's the Hebrews verse that kind of talks a little bit about angels. Any more comments on that? Anything else that sparks for you guys? - That passage is about Jesus. Like Hebrews is a polemic sort of like illustrating why Jesus is so important and according to the author, he's way different than an angel. So 'cause I think at the time there are people claiming, he's just an angel and Hebrews is like, no, he's not. He's the son of God. - I think anybody's just listening to this podcast who's like, what is an angel? An angel helps an angel worships. An angel is just there like, what do you need God? I'll do it. That's what an angel is. And at some point in the past, there was an angel that separated and said, I don't wanna do that anymore. I kind of wanna do my own thing, that's Satan. So early on, Satan had more of a title like the Satan, kind of an accuser. And then later you see through the Old Testament and into the New Testament where it actually becomes a name. Like Satan itself becomes like the chief demon.

And so there's a development in terms of the progress of what Satan is. And so this concept of demons then starts to really proliferate, especially in the New Testament. As everything we know about Judaism kind of came into contact with the rest of the world, there was a little bit more language for illustrating like, okay, so what are some of these dark spirits, these things that are going on? So you start to see, okay, there's a fully developed demonology. There's angels that do good things. You've got like Gabriel announcing the birth of Messiah. And then you've got demons, you see in Mark chapter five where Jesus is meeting this demoniac, this guy who's like, and it's so fascinating 'cause in the story, this guy is out there among the tombs and he's gashing himself with stones, screaming at the top of his voice. And day and night, he's in the mountains and in the tombs, gashing himself with stones. And so his voice is probably torn. He's probably like, ah, you know, he sounds horrible. Jesus shows up and he comes running up to him, throws him stuff down before him and he goes, have you come to torture us before the important time? And it says in like the ongoing, the verb there is like, he keeps asking him his name. He keeps saying, come out of him. He keeps saying, eh, Balot, come out of him, come out of him.

He's exercising, he's performing in exorcism. And then he says, what is your name? And the guy's like, I am legion for we are many. You know, it's like, it's creepy. It's almost like the demon is trying to push back against Jesus. How do you know it talk like that? Well, I heard it. So, but what's fascinating is the demons realized that they can't contest with Jesus power. So like, you know, there's some pigs that are feeding on a nearby hill. Can you send us into them so we can enter them? And Jesus gives them permission. They go into the pigs, the pigs rush down at the bank into the sea and they all drown. You know, and everybody's like, what the heck is going on here? I guess my point in saying all that is that you have this highly developed demonology at this point. Okay, so demons can possess things. Demons can enter into people and cause horrible, horrible mental distress, psychological distress, gashing yourself with stones, things like that. So a lot of questions come from that. So as we know it, again, the most traditional understanding of angels and demons is that all we know is at some point God created them, they're vital. And there was a group of them that separated off and said, I want to do my own thing. And then if we read toward the end of the New Testament,

it says that God will come back and restore order and get rid of these angels and will completely like death, disease, decay will be done, be gone. - And there's a piece too, like you talked about some that were, you know, like the demons cast out. I mean, 2 Peter 2, 4, I thought this is interesting. It says, for God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell and to gloomy pits of darkness where they're being held until the day of judgment. What's already brings up another interesting piece that angels can sin, you know, like cause you ask that question like you picture an angel, it's in my brain at least growing up, it was like perfect, a perfect being. Like it can't, it always thinks holy thoughts, always thinks good things, but this is suggesting that they can sin. - They have free will. - They have free will. - It seems to be some free will. And that results in some of them being called demons. Like they're no longer called an angel because they've fallen, they've sinned, they've walked away from God. - But I think what's important in terms of just the broader picture of like angels and demons, sometimes people think like, okay, well, I'll follow this angel or I'll track this particular thing through the New Testament number, but angels serve God. We can't appropriate an angel. We can't be like, well, this angel is gonna sit on my shoulder and do this, like angels serve God and do things. And we don't know what that means.

We don't know why it's kind of a mystery. It's not something that we can parse out. And in the same way with demons, we can't just be like, well, I'm just gonna do Satan's bidding. like the dark forces of demons and things like that. I don't know much about it, honestly. I know that there are people that do exorcisms and things like that and some of them seem very legitimate and some of them seem very illegitimate, some weird kind of strange stuff. But I guess it is not a good practice then to open yourself up to some of these demonic influences like tarot cards or Ouija boards or opening yourselves up to being channeled by anything spiritual because I think the Bible's pretty clear that once you open yourself up to something like that, you can be used and you can be misused and abused. - What does it mean to open yourself up to a demon? - I don't even know, you'd be honest with me. I know this guy who was tortured for a long time in Mark chapter five, I know that wasn't fake. I know that he wasn't making it up. I know that he was probably in major distress, you know? - And we know that it continued after Jesus' ascension because you have stories in the book of Acts of demoniacs and the apostles going to cast them out and dealing with people. And then like you hear that this is a crazy story. The seven sons of Skiva, they go to cast out a demon

in Jesus' name, but the demon says, I know Paul, I know Peter, I know, or not Paul, but I know Peter, I know Jesus, but I don't know you guys and beats them up and they leave naked. And like that's sort of an example of like the demonic presence is real and it's powerful, even after the ascension of Jesus. - It's common to think like what you were talking about, the demon on your shoulder and the angel on the other shoulder, like the devil made me do it, that sort of thing. I'm reading from James chapter one. It says, remember when you're being tempted, do not say God is tempting me. God has never tempted to do wrong and he never tempts anyone else. Temptation comes from your own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions and when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death, which is very like, it's a heavy, heavy verse. But if we look at like Genesis three, the serpent speaks deception. Gospel to Matthew chapter four, Jesus is tempted. Okay, again, it's an external thing. And Ephesians six, there's real spiritual struggle that happens first Peter five, eight, it says the devil prowls about. So again, it's out there. It's suggestion, deception, temptation, accusation. It's not mind control.

We gotta be really careful that like, well, the devil got into my mind and did something. It's temptation comes from outside of us. So the Bible does not teach that demons can freely read your mind. It doesn't teach that it can insert thoughts with total control and that believers are helpless to anything demon wise. But you can open yourself up to something that's dark. - And so that you use the key term, their believers. I don't know that you had said that earlier. So I trust Jesus, I'm a believer. Can I be possessed by a demon? Like can a demon interme control me in any way or something? - Do you wanna be? - I would not like to be, but I don't wanna accidentally be because I'm still wondering what opening myself up means. And I'm wondering if I can do that as a believer. - I've never personally opened myself up to the devil. So I don't know. But all I can tell you is what the scriptures tell me. And it seems like there are people that can open themselves up to that. - Yeah. And also the word possession isn't even in the Bible. Like that's not, and it's not even in the Greek either. The word is demonized, you know? Like it's like a demon somehow is influencing, attaching themselves to a person.

But it doesn't say possession. I grew up hearing like there's a difference between oppression and possession. Christians could be oppressed and non-Christians could be possessed. And I think the reason they would think that is the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in a believer and their body becomes his temple. And how could there be a temple of the Holy Spirit and a demon inside of them? That's logically makes sense, but that's not in the Bible. And so you're asking like, can you be possessed? I don't know. - Yeah. Well it seems like you mentioned Mark 5 Legion. It seems like he's possessed. Because he's, the demons asked to leave him and go down to pigs. - Yeah, I don't know what these are. He was. - Yeah. - So the word might not be used. - So the word might not be used. - Right. - But for all intents and purposes, when we're thinking of possession, a demon is within me in some way, that seems to be very clear in Mark, because they wanted to leave and go in something else and they went and pigs and ran pigs off a cliff. - But I will say too, if you're looking at the scripture,

it like it reads as he has a demon. Not he, a demon has him, do you know what I'm saying? So it's almost like he must have done something to open himself up like we've been talking about, so that the demon could have that influence in his life. He made the choice. A demon can't like grab his shoulders and be like, "I'm gonna be inside of you now." That doesn't seem to be the case. But we don't have clear, in scripture it's not clear, how he ended up like that. He would just find him and there he is. - That's an interesting distinction that you're making there is, okay. So is there a difference then? Like if I'm not open, we don't, There is an interesting podcast that I listen to. The exorcist files talks a lot about Catholicism, the Vatican files of possession, exorcisms, is creepy. But it does, in that view and what they bring up, they talk more about the type of sin you commit. And I don't know where to find that in the Bible that said, "Reinforce this." But it talks about if you can commit a mortal sin, you're inviting a demon. If you basically give it permission in a way, like it entices you, almost like Jesus is tempted in the desert, Satan's offering him things. And Jesus resists him. And so I'm wondering if there's something to that,

'cause I like your point there, where well, maybe it's not like, "Hey, I'm following Jesus "or I'm not really talking to demons, "they just randomly possess me." I don't know if that's clear. I don't think it is clear. I think what you're asking is almost like, Tim Keller has this quote about how everything in the Bible comes to us on a need to know basis. Like he presents it to us based on like, this is what you need to know for holy living and for your salvation. But then there's other stuff that we're just not gonna know. And I wanna know, but I don't think we will. I would err on the side of caution. - I'll take it one step further. I will say this is that you can go to all kinds of YouTube channels right now and listen to this particular topic, 'cause you could hear us talking about it, I'm like, "Man, they don't know." - Right. - You'll hear a whole lot more people who are much more convicted about what they know. I'll be like, "Oh, well, it's this and this and this "and this slides and I'll have all this kind "of information on it." But they're venturing out on a limb of manufactured information. - Right. - And so, yeah, if you want to have definite answers

for everything that you have questions to, you're stepping on to unlevel ground there. You know, it's kind of like thin ice. Where what we can say, what we can actually say about what the Bible is saying, it's very unclear. You know, it's a small amount of information and it's shrouded in mystery. And so, the truth is, is that it's unclear. But if you want to have definite answers to all your questions, you're going to have to step out into something that goes outside of the Bible. And that's where I'm like, just be careful of that. - And what I'm wondering with the possession piece too, is so, if I'm a believer and we're saying I can't be possessed because I got the Holy Spirit in me, I have a friend and he's not a believer and I'm like, I think this guy's possessed, right? Like, wild story, but let's say that's happening. Can I exercise that demon? Like, can I get that demon out of him? Is that possible? I'm hearing your story about some people who tried and failed. I'm hearing stories of Jesus who tried and succeeded. Can I do that? Could I get a demon out of someone? - Sure. - And Adam's going to show us. It's going to give us three steps. - I mean, biblically, I think we should work

against the powers and the forces of darkness. That's like, in James later on it talks about like, if someone is sick and you're congregation anoint them with oil and pray over them with the power of the Holy Spirit. But also you have like the story of the sons of Sceva, they are not apostles, they're not Jesus and they couldn't do it. And so I don't know is kind of the answer. I think based on the power of the Holy Spirit, we could, but also I don't think it's like in scriptures like, oh yeah, definitely. If you get the Holy Spirit, you can cast out any demon. But I don't know that it's super clear at the same time. - 'Cause it feels like it's in the Bible that people encounter it. And so there doesn't seem to be a suggestion that we couldn't encounter it. And so that's where I think that question's going to pop up. It's like, well, if I, should I avoid it? Or if I think someone is possessed, should I step into it as a believer? And it sounds like we're saying, hey, it's not clear what's going to happen. - And you can find YouTube videos of people saying that you definitely can. And probably someone is in the comments right now saying, no, you definitely can. And I think probably if God is, if he's sovereign

over the world, then his power certainly can. Whether you can, that's different. Do you know what I mean? That seems weird 'cause now I'm separating myself from the Holy Spirit. God can, but whether or not you can, it's different. - Yeah. And I think we're just going to be different than most other podcasts on this and just tell you the truth that it's very unclear. And I think that's important. And some people are going to click off of this and be like, oh, well, they don't know. But we know that we don't know. And that's important because like, for example, there's a guy named Zechariah Stitchin who wrote this book on the Anunnaki, right? And he studied all the Semitic languages. He looked into all of these stories from Sumer and published this book that talked about like, I think it was a planet was called Nabiru and he made up all this whole cosmology on like, wow, ancient Sumer had this idea of aliens that came and did these amazing, are you familiar with this? - No, I don't knock you in. - And he has all these answers and he has all this like genealogy of like, and it's very specific information. If you go and you click on any of that,

you can learn all kinds of stuff and get all kinds of answers that are not true. It was actually shown that his grammar, his syntax, all of it in the Sumerian languages was horrible. He claimed that the word Anunnaki meant the sons of the heavens, or something like coming from the heavens. When really it just means of royal blood. And it was, it's a very simple Sumerian story between Anu and his wife and then he had the Anunnaki and it's just a bunch of offspring. But he created this whole world and sold millions of copies, I'm sure, of this book. And everybody's so interested in all of his theories and they have all these answers, but it's all made up. And so what I'm saying is that as we look at angelology and demonology, the Bible is kind of obtuse. It doesn't give us a whole lot of backstory on it. And so the clearest answers we can get on it is that it is in mystery. So you can go to any other YouTube place and get all kinds of answers. You can listen to all kinds of people that don't know what they're talking about and will invent stuff. And it's like an itching ears concept. Like I just want to hear stuff that gives me something that's fascinating. In some ways, and this is where I get kind of ticked because it's like we've grown tired of the resurrection.

You know what I mean? It's not enough that Jesus came back from the dead. Are you kidding me? Like isn't that our main story? But instead we got to go like, wow, did you hear so-and-so said that this verb means this? And when you look it up in the ancient Near East and there's this backstory, it's outside the Bible, but yeah, and they wrote this thing. And it's like, man, why can't you just stick with our story? Our story is incredible the way it is. And I think God purposely holds back from giving us too much because we'll blow our minds. So that's mine, little soapbox. - So I still want to know. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - I still want to know. Do we have guardian angels? Do they protect us from demons? - Yep. - And do they battle each other? Do angels and demons battle each other? - According to Frank Paredi, they do battle each other. Do you ever read those books? - Yeah. - I grew up reading the garden. - The Cooper Kid books, but yeah, I read that one too. It terrified me. But yeah, they depicted as like a cosmic battle. They're like fighting with swords and stuff

and they're above your house right now, you know, that kind of thing. But like John was just saying, the Bible's not clear about that either. - The guardian angels. - Why are they battling with swords? - I don't know. - I mean, they're like angels, right? If they like do stuff with like, I don't know. - Well, have you ever read an unlevel type of, have you ever read Paradise Lost by Milton? - I like an English class in high school. In that book, who's written in like the 1600s, it's about, you know, it's background on some of this stuff. They use a cannonballs. So they're like shooting cannons, the demons are shooting cannons at the angels. - Wow. - Yeah, it's crazy. So when we write stories, we seem to think so. Is there any biblical basis to like, angels and demons fighting each other? Like, are there any stories? Like, I remember there's a, a story in Daniel where Daniel prays. And there's like a very, the Bible talks through the process of an angel being sent. And then the angel gets resisted. I can't remember all the details. - He gets caught up in Persia.

The Prince of Persia seems to be a demon of some sort, stops him and he's 21 days delayed. But he left as soon as Daniel started to pray, but he gets caught and he shows up and he's like, "Hey, I'm sorry, I'm late." Had this altercation with the Prince of Persia, which we can unpack, we can go deep into this. That connects to what Michael Heiser talks about as the Deuteronomy 32 worldview, that there are demons that have power over geographical areas, which seems to go at Daniel's indicating. - And is it from Deuteronomy 32? Is that where he's pulling this? - Yeah, well, I mean, really from the story of Genesis 6 and then to the Tower of Babel and then Genesis, or Deuteronomy 32. - Okay. So it seems like there are stories where, I don't know if it depicts an actual fight or not at that point, but it seems to be there's, there is some kind of spiritual warfare that we can't see. So that seems to be real. Like, there are angels and demons. If they're both created angels and one was a fallen angel, it seems like they're, you know, were initially equal in the sense of being created as angels. - Yeah, there's a story in Jude too, where Michael the Archangel makes a decision not to confront Satan.

And I don't totally understand why or what that means. There's no, there's no background given, but he mentions like, yeah, even the Archangel Michael chosen not to. - Wow, can we pull that up? - Jude one nine. But even the Archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander, but said the Lord rebuke you. So it kind of sounds like Michael's like, Then other demons do we do we know how much power Satan has? What do you think? These are the questions that I could spend my head around all day and someone on YouTube has the answer to this thing As we like John was saying earlier like this this character Satan seems to be the same character That's the dragon and in revelation and that character seems to be leading all of the spiritual forces of darkness And that this sort of like the main enemy of God And so yes in that sense he at least has influence over all the other spiritual whether he had more power or not I don't know according to the gospel though once Jesus died resurrected He defeated all the powers of darkness whatever foothold they had he knocked him over And so they're still around but they don't have nearly the power they had before Jesus's death burial resurrection an ascension Because Jesus is raining now and we have a chance to have eternal life, which means they're not raining like they were in the Old Testament That's wild and it's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy to think about no And I think that it goes it gets even crazier the more we could get into it, you know Yes, so I feel like before we miss out on my earlier question. I'll figure out an answer to it Do I have a guardian angel? There's a passage of scripture that talks about how like Children, what is the reference man? I wish I had my I don't have any notes on this. Can we pull that up Tyler pull up um What's the passage that talks about like their angels attributed to children? because that's where people get the idea of a guardian angel from and

But it's also once again, it's not super clear that that's what that actually means Matthew 18 10 Jesus is teaching See that you do not despise one of these little ones for I tell you that they're angels in heaven always see the face of my father in heaven They're angels. There's like a possessive word there so I don't know if that means they have one angel or there are a group of angels or Really what it means? Yeah, but it's there's something there, which is where people this is what he's saying They roll out a whole theology around this because they're like I want to know more It's a super interesting and then you end up with every child has a guardian angel Yeah, and so because this is this is why I keep wanting to push on like what does the Bible say because I know it's not a lot but it's still giving us something and there's like it's also creating us to fill in some gaps, you know, and One more thing with with angels specifically is what I know. There's what seraphim Yeah, now this is something I want to get a cherubin I don't cuz it's spooky like what the heck is going on? I don't feel like we always we don't have a lot of descriptions of how things appear But it seems like we have descriptions of how these things look. It's creepy Can we pull up some of those passages? I'm a little bit nervous about like entering into God's presence now You know before I was thinking like, you know pipe organs and like jasper and onyx and like all these amazing jewels And like the glassy sea and the throne But the more you look into what a seraphim is or or a cherubim Like you can't say a cherubim the cherubim the seraphim It it's spooky. Yeah, you know a seraphim. It's it's a snake. Yeah, so pull up the picture from Egypt The Egyptian seraphim. Yeah, so it's it's sort of It's baseline knowledge in ancient Near East that like a God's Inner sanctum is guarded by these winged serpents, which I don't know It just even just the sight of snakes make people go like ooh, you know, but to see them with wings Could you imagine flying snakes? That's just like snakes on a plane. I love what I mean. I love what out, man That's how they got there. Yes, that's creepy. So here's here's an AI version of it You know, it's like it amped up. I can see that on the front of like a transam, you know Yes, exactly exactly. So so these the pictures are that that's a creepy photo. Is that a cherubim? That was like a video game boss. I think that's from Ezekiel where it talks about the eyes. Oh, yeah, sure

Wow And so as even as we're looking at these photos There's oh, that's the cherubim. That's a cherubim. It brings that got the multiple heads. Yeah, the different be so the difference between the cherub and the seraph The the cherub is a beast-like thing that guards The throne room of God not a baby with a harp, right? Oh, right. Right. So you knew that I So we know that cuz I want to read some of this cuz that it's just like this is kind of what gives me the chills thinking about it It's Ezekiel one. I'm just gonna read some of it Ezekiel one starting in verse five It says from the center of the cloud came four living beings that looked human except that each had four feet calf and shone like burnished bronze. Under each of their four wings I could see human hands. So each of the four beings had four faces and four wings. The wings of each each living being touched the wings of each beside it. It kind of continues to get on to paint the picture. Already. What's going on? Yeah and that's a pretty just that's a lot more description you know for something as like creepy and just a picture of maybe like what I could represent. And do you see what I'm saying? So like early on like maybe high school and college I would I would you do maybe it's for like world cultures or whatever anthropology class whatever and you understand that the Native Americans they worshiped the bull god I don't know buffalo god the birds of the sky that sort of thing and you think like okay well these are more primitive religions and they even the Egyptian religion you've got autumn or Anu and and Horus horses of some type of bird you know and so you're thinking okay well these are like primitive religions but our religion it's like the glassy sea you got the jewels and all like but then when you really look into it it's like no they're they're talking about the things that they're seeing or either highly inflected and symbolic or they're literal like there's a bull with wings like how does that work you know and then the serif is a snake with wings like no I don't I don't feel comfortable in that location like I you know it's like give me give me a thousand a day in your courts rather than a thousand elsewhere a day in a court with a bunch of flying snakes freaks me out and so and so again we're we're also

talking about where are we getting this from this I think the serif one is Isaiah six and so here here's what this one says it was in the year of King Ziya died that I saw the Lord he was sitting on a lofty throne and the train of his robe filled the temple attending him were my mighty seraphim and notice they they interpret every other word except seraphim because they're like oh so this could be in like fiery one meaning that words left untranslated yeah it's left untranslated in the English yeah okay because they don't know what to do with it right because it could be snake it could also mean fiery one now if it said if seraphim were little innocent babies with wings they'd be like oh little innocent babies of wings everybody like oh that's a few times now but they leave it untranslated so you don't realize that it's a creepy vision yeah yeah yeah yeah so each having six wings with two wings they covered their faces with two they covered their feet and with two they flew and they were calling out to each other holy holy holy is the Lord of heaven's armies like this epic like song you know but I can't even imagine what that would sound like probably like he lives in truth theme no I know like growing up in the Episcopal Church it was like every weekend you had listened to like 14th century minor chord hymns like and it was all very kind like wait real quick though I'm cuz I'm making connections in my head the seraph if it's a serpent you got the serpent in the garden Genesis 3 and we believe that Satan wasn't angelic or spiritual being and he likely was part of like the divine council or like a higher ranking spiritual being so it kind of makes sense that he was a serpent in the story because a seraph would have been there right assuming Garden of Eden is a mount on top of a mountain I'm making a lot of jumps here right but if if that's on top of mountain that's where God dwells with people right it's just their own area and there's a serpent there so that's why they're not surprised right so they see a serpent right because it's like well he's always here he's a seraph right what is the divine council yeah we we can really get into that I mean we talked about we touched on it briefly earlier Psalm 82 that's the best place to go and we can pull up Psalm 82 this is what you see in the Old Testament

it's sort of like the way that they describe God's heavenly council room court yeah yeah his court he's got other people he doesn't need these other spiritual beings but he chooses to involve them in what's happening so this whole this whole chapter is about the divine council and it's sort of a song about how the divine council is ruling unjustly and and basically David is asking God to like call judgment upon them so yes as verse one God presides in the great assembly divine council he renders judgment among the gods it's in parentheses that word that was Elohim so it's the same it's a lowercase E like Elohim but it's the same word that's used to describe any spiritual being in the Old Testament including God when they would talk about Yahweh it would be the Elohim so it's different than just Elohim how long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked they're doing the wrong thing Defend the Week in the Fatherless. And so he's calling them Elohim but he's calling them up to something higher your son of Yahweh. You have to be a living like that So divine council I shows up a bunch of places in the Psalms. It shows up. We heard like sons of God Benet Elohim it's that same phrase that's Genesis 6 So there's members of some members of God's divine council coming down ruling unjustly doing something they shouldn't have done And it causes a big problem. So is this suggesting? more Spiritual creatures than just angels and demons. Yeah if you wanted to summarize it It's kind of like you've got God you've got the divine council or people that he chooses to participate with and share You know and just like spiritual beings. Yeah spiritual beings that are kind of like in this echelon I guess and then you've got the seraphim which are and the and the cherubim Which the cherubim kind of defend the seraphim are there Just kind of worship and keep glorifying him and then you have angels and angels are more of the messengers They worship God, but they also like do his bidding they go here and there and and that's really I mean other than like the malachial way the angel of the Lord Which is really like God's presence that comes down on earth at different times and kind of talks to people It's like the voice of the Lord important distinction angel is not it's not a type of being it's a function So it's like what they do. Mm-hmm. So what what it's actually the Old Testament. They're just all called Elohim

Which just means like spiritual being. Mm-hmm. And so I think almost like they could all be the same like Elohim seraphim Angel just operating in different functions We don't know we just know that they're spiritual beings that God chose to work with and his plan was to have them help Take care of somehow humanity. So okay, so blow my categories a little bit There's one word Elohim in the Old Testament. It's consistently being used and then translated into different things Is that what you're saying like sometimes it says angels sometimes it says Seraphim no no no that's yes, sorry That's confusing if it's translated in the Septuagint or the New Testament as angel. It was Elohim okay seraphim and Turbim Untranslated okay like nephaleen so those were were distinguished correct, okay, right and but we're seeing it as I feel like I just grew up with a very simplistic Angels demons like that's what's out there. You're an angel. You're a demon and demons just fell down They just made them the wrong choice. Mm-hmm and we're pulling out of Ezekiel Isaiah Nausom's different indications of maybe there's a little bit more complexity that we don't understand to this that there's different ranks In like a super and tell me if this passes the test in some ways because you gotta be really careful about this And some people get like major sticky on this but if you wanted to super simplify it You say there's like a spiritual world and that's when we say like Elohim like these are like spirits Okay, and again very simplifying and then there's the spirit like God himself So Elohim would be like saying there are a bunch of spirits that that exist in the heavenly realm and There is one great spirit like God himself. Now again, don't send me emails on now like you've murdered the Hebrew like I understand It's just a way of kind of analogizing that the word Elohim applies to anybody in that like kind of realm the heavenly cord and you mentioned Satan being a higher ranking Angel like some somewhere up in the ranks. Do we see that anywhere in the Bible that it indicates that that Satan is of a certain rank? So it's kind of mysterious. So We're not sure whether Satan is Really who he is because There are references in the Old Testament that talk about how he was regarded as like an angel of light and how he was thrown down And yeah, are they talking about kings back then right so Ezekiel 28? I think

There's some 14. Yeah, we're some prophecy There's there's some prophecies that say that talk about how kings in the ancient Near East have been thrown down and they used to occupy such Marvelous heights and so people wonder if okay is that also talking about Satan And how he's been thrown down Some people would say no no no This is a specific person in the ancient Near East that you're talking about a specific king has nothing to do with things in spiritual And then some people say well oftentimes in prophetic literature it kind of double counts as talking about somebody else as well In the same thing applies. We just talked about functional words the Satan Was a functional being like that functional word it means the accuser And so even that gets it gets confusing to be like oh, yeah, this guy is this guy and this is about everything All we have is the dots. And so it's hard to say. - Yeah, you mentioned Isaiah 14, and this is what it says, and this is what you guys are saying is people attribute this to being referencing Satan. But I'm gonna read it, and you're gonna see that it doesn't say Satan. So it says, Isaiah 14, verse 12 through 15, it says, "How you are fallen from heaven, "o shining star, son of the morning, "you have been thrown down to the earth, "you who destroyed the nations of the world, "for you said to yourself, "'I will ascend to the heaven and set my throne "above God's stars. "I will preside on the mountain of the gods, "far away from the north, "I will climb the highest heavens "and be like the most high. "Instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead,

"down to its lowest depths." And so it sounds like pulling from this is saying, like this is, it's not saying Satan, but people are almost using that as backstory for Satan. - Was it origin that when he was translating to Vulgate? It was origin, right? - Or was it Jerome? - Jerome translates the Vulgate and he takes the shining star and he gives it the Latin term Lucifer, which means shining star. And so that's where we get the word Lucifer from. And so we think, okay, what's talking about Lucifer, so then that must be Satan when it's really talking about ancient Near Eastern King in his context. - Wow, okay. So there's a lot of threads and names for Satan that traditionally, the way that I would look at it and have believed it is like this is all Satan one guy in his story, but it seems like that again, that's us trying to understand it in our brains, in our language. - It's not impossible that it's one person, but also scripture is not saying that that is the case. And so what we're finding so far, just what we're pulling straight out of the Bible is just a little bit, a little bit about angels and their role and their position and that they were created, that demons were, hey, fallen angels, they were also created,

but there's also these other spiritual beings that pop up. So we kind of walk through a ton of that and pull the verses out where it talks about it. So when we talk about trying to understand this more broadly, are there other resources that are helpful for this? Like are there other literature, other books, you guys referenced Enoch earlier? Is Enoch helpful to actually getting a better view of this? Can we trust it and why or why not? - Yeah, we love this stuff, don't you? - I love, dude, I love this stuff. And the Book of Enoch is insane, it's crazy to read. - But it's hard, Nana's. - Yeah, if you look at the church fathers, they were totally split on Enoch in terms of whether it was helpful. What I think is consistent is, they wouldn't have said it should have been included in the biblical canon, unless you're Ethiopian Orthodox, which in case it is, the first Book of Enoch. - And even now it was like 13, 14th century. - Right, later. - So, but I just, what's interesting is, although they were consistent with the biblical canon part, a lot of them would use it as a helpful, additional text. So, this is not authoritative in the same way scripture is, it's not inspired by God in the same way, but it might be helpful to provide some background. I think in a cynical way, you could just call it fan fiction, you know?

But at the same time, it seems like Jude and 2nd Peter, like you read 2nd Peter too earlier, they were using this as like a source to provide some biblical background, whether or not they were tapped in and thinking like, "Oh yeah, this is totally true." I don't know, but they were aware of it for sure. And it gives you some handles on some Old Testament stuff, personally for me, gives me handles on Old Testament stuff that I had a hard time grasping. Genesis 6, for example, like what's going on there? If you read the Book of Enoch, it gives you a whole like background, and like, "Here's exactly what's going on." I don't read it like I read the rest of the Bible, because I don't believe that it was supposed to be included in the canon, and you just look at church tradition to kind of get that information. - If you had to create an analogy, and tell me if this is going too far, but in my mind, I think you have the Constitution, right? That's authoritative, all right? Declaration of Independence, authoritative, Old New Testament, let's say, regardless of which ones, which, but then you have like the Federalist Papers, which not a lot of people know is just a bunch of published, I guess they're like articles just based on like law and ideas of what a country said look like, and just a bunch of papers that are not authoritative, but they're helpful.

They are referred to in the Constitution. You know, they are referred back to, at least concepts are referred back to from these Federalist Papers that you had the framers of the Constitution that were just writing back and forth, and just, who else, are you familiar, 'cause you're a history guy, right? - The Federalist Papers? - Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I can't remember, it's not like Jefferson, and now I'm gonna reveal my ignorance of it. But basically, framers of the Constitution, they just had an active interest in trying to think through, how does this go? And so it's basically like a bunch of papers that were important to understand the frame of mind of the framers of the Constitution, but it's not authoritative. - That is a good way to think about it. Yeah, that's a really good analogy. - Helpful, but not authority. - So let me, can I give you an example of what can happen? of kind of getting the biblical pieces. And so what we're just acknowledging right now is that this book of Enoch is not straight out of the canon of the Bible, but what are some things that could be helpful? What are some pictures it paints? You mentioned Genesis six, which is where we talk about the Nephilim.

What else does it paint more stuff about that? - Let me give you some all, let me just paint. It like goes to town. - It starts to roll a boulder down the hill that I think enlightens ways that you can understand the Old Testament. That's where it's been helpful to me. And I'm not saying like, oh, I totally stack hands with this, it's totally true. But it's helped me to think, oh wait, this maybe makes sense of what I see later on in scripture. So it gives you the first book of Enoch. The first book is split into three parts. The first part is called the Book of the Watchers. It's like the first like 20 chapters, I think. And that seems to be the oldest part of it as well. So it's like a composite book. This part is about the fall of the sons of God. And actually it's like Enoch goes to them. They ask Enoch to go to God and like, they're apologizing through Enoch, it's kind of funny. But he, God denies their apology. And anyways, through this story it's revealed that the sons of God were divine council members came down to earth, took women. So almost like, there's almost like a sexual assault kind of associated with this. It's like very wrong what they've done. They didn't just choose to marry.

They took what wasn't theirs. Similar to Genesis three, it talks about Eve taking what wasn't hers. Same kind of language with the sons of God in the Bible. - So again, Genesis six has a very, very short statement that the sons of God came down and took the daughters of men and the Nephilim were in the earth on those days. - Yes, that's basically it. - So now this unpacks it. It's the prequel. It's like a marvel story of like, okay, how did Captain America come to be? - Yep, and here's the crazy part. The way that the book of Enoch kind of illustrates what happens after that is the Nephilim are the children of the sons of God, intermarrying with women. And then when the Nephilim die, their disembodied spirits roam about the earth and they become what we call demons in the New Testament. - But they were giants. They were like 45-foot giants. - In the book of Enoch, they were, I think they were even taller, 80, 90 feet or something. They were like huge, according to the book of Enoch. - It's the real giants, okay. - Yeah, so this is all putting connections together. The flood is necessary to wipe out these giants and then the giants become spirits. But yet somehow there's a second incursion, somehow the sons of God come again

and now there's more giants. You get A-nack and Raphaim. And then here's a jump that Michael Heiser's, he's kind of unpacked a lot of this stuff. - Exactly. - So he's a doctor, you can look him up, watch his videos, interesting stuff. - I don't know, really. A lot of great work with this. - Oh dude, insanely good. And the Bible project even has some stuff on this as well. Joel Munamalay, he wrote a book called The Unseen Battle recently. So there's a lot of people that are really interested in this stuff. What it goes to then is Deuteronomy 32 talks about how God has apportioned the people groups within the Middle East and even like places geographically and delivered them to sons of God to rule them. So divine council members to rule those and God took Israel, his portion, Yahweh did. And this is a reference back to the Tower of Babel where the people groups are split. And then at some point the sons of God decide we're no longer gonna like rule according to the way God wants us to rule and you end up with Baal and Molech and all these alternative gods. - Yeah. - And these are like awful gods

that are like encouraging child sacrifice and all this terrible things. - And they take of residence geographically. - Geographically. That connects to Daniel seven, Prince of Persia. So this is what I mean. - These are densities. - The principalities, the powers of this world that are dark. - Exactly. It also explains Joshua the conquest. Like what are they doing, conquesting these people? While they're worshiping sons of God that have fallen, fallen angels, demonic presences. But do you see how satisfying it is? - Yeah. - Because it's like, so okay, so this connects with this. And when you're watching a movie that's a prequel, you're like, oh, so this is how that happened. Oh, and this person really knew that person the whole time. And it's very satisfying. The problem is it's inventing stuff. And that's why we can't take it as authoritative because it's just, I don't know, who is this guy that wrote this? I mean, we don't even know who it was. - We don't know. And so two pieces to this. One, it is making sense what you're saying. I mean, it's still confusing, but it's making more sense. That you got sons of God, they have kids with women on earth

and they die and become basically the demons. But the sons of God are like the gods that are ill-spoken of in the Bible, like they're those. So in some ways it's like, oh, wow, that could actually all piece together and kind of make sense. Now, what's like, you kind of mentioned the caution here is when you start pulling in like the fan fiction, right? When do you start getting it mixed up with the canon, with what's true, when can it lead us astray? We spent an episode talking about the spirit of the Antichrist and how the spirit of the Antichrist is all about just slight little turds. of like, oh, I'm interested in this book of Enoch. And is it wrong? Is it right or wrong for me to read it? - Well, like we've said, it's helpful. And there's clear ways where you can see it's super helpful to give kind of like a worldview behind like what's going on. If you go back to like, when Jesus, when he talks about the gates of Hades will not prevail and he's standing right at the foot of Mount Herman. That is the territorial place where according to the book of Enoch, the watchers have come out. So it seems like he's making a nod to this folklor-y type of understanding and they would have understood back then. The temptation of Jesus in Matthew chapter four, where Satan's offer of all the kingdoms of the world, like how does he have all of that power? And Jesus doesn't argue with it. Do you ever notice that?

He's like, look, I'll give you all the kingdoms of the world. Satan doesn't have that, does he? Oh, but it would make sense in a worldview that says that Satan actually is behind all of these principalities, all these powers. That would make a whole lot of sense. When Jesus says, I saw in Luke chapter 10, I saw Satan falling like lightning from heaven. That seems to be a nod to this particular type of worldview in John. Jesus is quoted as saying like the ruler of this world. Again, another nod to this worldview. So yeah, it just seems to crop up in a bunch of different places over and over and over again. Jesus is about to leave this earth and he's like, all authority has been given to me. So what authority were we talking about? It seems to give a nod to this idea of principalities and powers. Paul talks about principalities and powers and how there's this idea geographically dark influences that that rain in certain areas. So it's helpful to unpack like, oh, okay, well, this is where Jesus is getting this. The question is like, is he referring to something that most people understood, but it's not necessarily like the way it really is? Or is it really the way it is? That's the hard thing to know is people believed this. They believed the book of Enoch, some people at least

during the time of Jesus. He was familiar with this. He would have probably have read it. The question is, did he think it was the true story? And we just don't know. - Yeah, well, you know, he's talking through all of the different dynamics to the spiritual realm in the limited amount of information we have in the Bible. It almost suggests how much are we even really supposed to know or really supposed to be concerned with? Like, how does it really impact our everyday life to know more about this? John, I've heard you before, you've talked, you used some kind of illustration with like a window. We're like, when we look, read the Bible, it's giving us like a glimpse, but it's not exhaustive. Like, there's so much more that we don't get to see. - Yeah, John talks about this where he's like, man, Jesus did so much stuff toward the end of his gospel. He's like, if we were to write down everything he did, the whole world wouldn't be able to fill all the books. And I think what he's talking about is that there's so much more to the picture than what we're giving you. And even the idea of a gospel, the gospel, the word gospel means it's like a history of somebody's life that's written to convince you of something. It's not necessarily just a strict history. And so, when we look at God's word, I think we gotta make sure that we don't reduce it

to a picture, like a snapshot. Like, here it is, frozen in time, here's the one thing. And the best we can do for many of us, as we try to unpack the Bible, we can give you little snapshots of what we see from our perspective. But the Bible itself is like a window, and a window is dynamic. It means that there's something on the other side of this, but windows limit views. You know, you only get so much view. It's not like 360, you're not in it. You're able to see into it. And so, really, depending on where you stand depends on the view you see. The closer you are to it, the more you can see. The further you're away, or if you're from an angle, or if you're just kind of not really convinced of it, you're not gonna see a whole lot. I guess I try to help people see that the Bible itself, it's so dynamic, and it's not necessarily meant to give us all the information of everything on the other side of that wall. In many ways, it's supposed to help us understand from our perspective what can we see of that world. - It reminds me of what Paul says about how we see now through a glass darkly. And imagine glass back then. They didn't have clear glass, you know what I mean? So, it only has a glass like that, but it's dark.

So, he's saying, like, we don't understand all this stuff right now, but one day, God could give us that ability, but not now. - So, if I want to take anything away from this discussion, I think, in many ways, we've domesticated what's the Bible, the world of the Bible, to fit. Maybe a more rationalistic, maybe a more enlightenment view of like everything just kind of makes sense and there's nothing weird. And it's supposed to be. We're not supposed to get to heaven and be like, oh, that's exactly as I thought it would be. I think we're gonna step, we're gonna set foot in heaven. And sometimes I say this to people. I'm like, I wonder if in the same way when we arrived here on this earth, we spent the first six months just going like, like honestly, think about it. - I couldn't walk either. - Right, don't people say that like babies for the first six weeks, they can't see color. They can only see reds and blacks or something like so far from their face too. - And all of a sudden this thing comes into their face and they're like, what is that? And they only realize it's their arm, you know? Like, I've seen babies do that. They're like, they're freaked out. Like, what is this? And over time they get to realize,

like, oh, I can control this thing. Or like, when I cry, then mom brings me food and that sort of thing. So I wonder if in getting to heaven if there's gonna be a where in period, you know, where we show up and we're like, what the heck, you know, like, what is this place? And I'm okay with that. I'll be okay with just being there, okay? So just give me a little shack in the corner, maybe near the beach, that'll be great. But yeah, I think we've got to gain an appreciation for when we read the Bible that we shouldn't make it fit our world or our world views. That there's stuff in there that is wild and it should be wild because that's what makes it authentic. So good, so good. Yeah, there's just so much in this realm that we won't understand. We'll probably still try 'cause we're human beings and we're trying to fill in the gaps, trying to create the fan fiction. I also feel like technology, hearing all about all this stuff, researching this stuff could actually develop a lot of fear, a lot of fear of just that unknown. I'm like, I don't, like, there are some moments where we even said, hey, demons, exorcism, like, can I interact with that? Can I get a demon out of my house? All these things.

And it's like, ooh, like, it doesn't feel super clear. And I think that can generate a lot of anxiety around, oh my word, like, am I safe? Am I okay? And the one verse that I feel like is just real important to just pull it out in front of us, especially as we're kind of closing our conversation about it, is just in, first on four. Like, this is so important. When you think about anything related to unseen realm. So first John, four starts by talking about anti-Christ, spirit of anti-Christ, all this, like, evil spirits. And this is what it says. After all that creepy stuff. But you belong to God, my dear children. You've already won a victory over those people. Because the spirit who lives in you is greater than the spirit who lives in the world. I'm like, man, like, who was already wondering that same thing, living in that same fear when this was written to say, hey, like, you belong to God, hey, hey, hey. You're thinking about demons a lot. You're wondering if my car broke down, it's a demon, or something real serious. There's something going on in my relationship in my house. And we're like, is there some kind of demonic thing happening here? And so what we believe here at our church,

on this podcast, is like, hey, when you trust in Jesus, like, and he's, his Holy Spirit is indwelling within you, that power is greater than anything in the world. We don't have something to fear. Just says it, you belong to God. You've already won a victory. And it's like, that's really important to note. So that's one piece, right? The second piece is there's still, it still begs questions, you know? It still makes us wonder, 'cause there's things we don't know. It also makes us wonder, hey, when I die, right, when I die, what's happening next? - Yeah, there we go. - Is there any more or less information in the Bible about this? Can I know what I'm in experience? Am I gonna see these creatures at some point? Am I gonna now know, oh, that's what they want? - Yeah, so it's like, am I gonna have to put up a snake? - Yes. - I thought they're gonna be gone, but yeah, interesting question. - So what are we gonna see when we die? What happens when we die? What about near-death experiences, all this stuff that kind of dabble into that unseen realm? And so we're not gonna get into that now, but that's what we're talking about next, our next episode to talk about,

hey, what happens when I die? So thank you guys for all your incredible input. I can't wait to get into that next topic. What happens when I die? Am I immediately in heaven after I die? - My buddy Cole, he had an indie, he died. This is how he remembers what happened. Paul's saying the same thing in the Bible, that he had this experience. - What happens in heaven? Well, price, similar stuff to what happens here, but I know you guys. - And will you know your wife? - What does hell look like? - Is it a real place? - Like Satan is depicted as the landlord of hell when he's an inhabitant. - That Jesus, when he died, was that he'd go there? - When Jesus was dead, he went to preach to the spirits and prisoners. - What about people who haven't heard about Jesus? (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]