Roundtable with Jay + Luther

In my experience in doing prison ministry over 25 years, I can count on one hand the number of times that I've been truly kind of undone with what God allows me to see. And it's not that I miss it the other times, but then as you know, sometimes there's just special moments, right? Signature moments. And when I came to Everglades and met you at Everglades Correctional and were greeted by the men in that chapel, the way that I was, and ushered in, I was supposed to be the speaker and I was ushered in and it was like a church. And I had been doing this a long time, but there was something different about this place. And when it came to me finding out that you were a big reason for that, it got me so intrigued and helped me continue to hone the message that I want to portray to inmates. And that is your purpose starts now, not when you get out. You don't wait and then go try to do better. And I want to ask you, when did God really start to reveal that to you? Like don't wait, work now in your gifting, in your purpose. You've already come home, you're my son, don't wait, do it now. How did that kind of start to manifest in your life? Yeah, it's interesting. Even the term you used about wait until I get out, because I used to actually, I had like a little phrase I used to say, the wait till I get out mentality. And I guess it was a challenge for myself and I'm going to get to the heart of your question. But just when I was kind of like, I would say when I was like at the zenic of ministry on the inside, that was a confidence that I had that if God is God, it doesn't have to be a certain time or period or certain stars don't have to all be aligned for him to be God. You know what I mean? So why, what is it that I'm waiting for? And I say encourage the men because in prison, we know that, we believe that, okay, when you're free, when you're released, then that's when the ideal circumstances come, and then

you can do whatever it is that you want to do. But the challenge was, will you be willing to do it now? But anyway, backing up a little bit, I think it was where I was spiritually at that time what kind of provoked that because here it is, when I was out on bond, awaiting trial, and I was totally surrendered to God and basically had to really make up my mind that no matter what happens, Lord, I have to walk with you. And I answered the proverbial call that was on my life that was said from men and women of God that I respected and just hearing them say stuff like, oh, there's a call on your life and you have to answer the call. And honestly, I thought that answering the call then would have averted the prison sentence. So that was part of the reason why I answered the phone real quick because I'm like, okay, maybe God is flashing all this danger at me, answer your call, hurry up, and then it'll all disappear. So once I answered the call and yet it didn't disappear, it didn't go away, now the question's in my mind, what did you really answer the call for? And it's just that small voice like, are you still going to say yes? Did you mean what you say? For Christ you live and for Christ you die because this is not going to end the way you envision it and the way you believe in me. So anyway, as I enter into the system, I go in with this mindset of, all right, Lord, what am I going to do now for you? What am I going to do here? I guess as I landed on that compound and I seen the spiritual condition versus the experience that I had when I was on the outside, immediately I just became depressed because it just seemed like it wasn't the same. And I guess in my mind, and I was living in those moments. I kept living in the previous season and I would sit there and I would have an audience of God that would just listen to how God was using. when I was on Bond and with the gospel music and this and that and I was longing for that so much and I just felt like, man, I'm in a cesspit right now. You know what I mean? So it's almost like

God was like, why not bring that experience that I allowed you to have? Why can't you be that change? It's like you're looking for someone else and you're looking for it to come in from someone outside of yourself or outside of what's going on, but why don't you be that that can do it? So the circumstances that was created when I look back at it in hindsight, I believe it was God that allowed those conditions to create that desperation in me and really just to get relief for myself. I'm like, okay, God, I'll do it. But initially it was to get relief for myself. And then from there it turned into a movement that provided a blessing for those, because lo and behold, and I'll let you come back in, there was plenty of men that felt the exact same way I felt, like there's got to be more. There's got to be more than just frequenting the chapel every day and listening to the same old, going through the same old routine and, you know, got stale. But you hit on something that I think if we're honest, we don't like to talk about. We answer the call for different reasons. You were in between, you were out on bond awaiting sentencing and it's human nature to think, okay, God, I'll do this. Wink, wink. I believe it's real, but I'm hoping that because I do this, then maybe you'll do this for me. And yet he still offered the call, knowing your heart, right? And you just said, yeah, I had to ask myself that afterwards. That's an amazing relief, I think, for those of us or anyone that questions their motivations at times. I think a problem sometimes is we don't even question our motivations. You and I have talked a lot about conditioned response, what's supposed to happen versus, you know, and that part of your story is always so powerful to me that it started when it did, in between your time at a county jail and out on bond and then before sentencing, before you had to start a 25-year sentence for a first offense. But the call was extended, you answered it, and then even though you wrestled at first, it began to flourish. And as a result, a lot of men were blessed, redeemed, but also found their identity. What is one thing that if somebody is going into a prison right now, like a church or a ministry, and we both know they'll be well-received no matter what, because anytime you get a chance to see normal, if you're on the inside or see a different face or, you know, hear music or even if you don't agree so much with how they present the message, it's okay. There's somebody coming to you. But what do they miss when they don't look for what you and I just talked about, what God has already been doing on the inside? What is it that they miss or how could they do that differently so that they don't miss it?

So here's the disclosure, in my opinion. Number one, understanding the manifold wisdom of God. You see so many sides to God. And I think as believers, one of the things that we have to grow accustomed to doing is just being sensitive enough and open enough that God is not limited. He's so out of the box. And I think oftentimes based on, like you say, being conditioned, it's like going to the beach and bringing water. You know what I mean? Yeah, right. And it's like sometimes... I mean, if you're going to serve, you understand, okay, that's the need and I'm meeting that need and I'm not taking away from that because that's hugely how it is. But also going and understanding that God is all around me. So there's a possibility or an opportunity for God because He's not... In other words, I'm not... God is omnipresent. He's everywhere. Whether I'm there or not, He has the capacity to be there with or without you. So I think going in with the right attitude and understanding that, let me be open enough because there may be something that God is ready to do. Yeah. And I think with a lot of ministries and I used to notice... And I had grown to this point. when I was inside. Because you said it, you hit it on the head real perfectly. Initially, I was so desperate for anything that was outside of the coach I was in at that time that you could have been serving garbage, you see what I'm saying, on the plate, and I would have just sat there, even if I didn't eat it, just thank you for giving me a plate of, you know what I mean, whatever it was. But it got to the point where it wasn't fulfilling, it wasn't satisfying. And I realized that this person ain't really going in deep to find out from God what needs to be said to me. And I'm just keeping 100. We keep it 100, as we would say,

it's African-American colloquial. But I would say that maybe this is the ministers at the church that don't have a platform and this is where they get to, you know what I mean, and it got to the point where I just, I was like, ugh, I could finish their sentence. You know what I mean? And I understood it and I got it, and I said, God bless them, and I saw for what it was. And I didn't go with any real expectation, which became a problem. Yes, okay, let's talk about that. Because that is so real. That is so, what happens, you know. So you said a couple of things that I wanna make sure we carry the right way here. At first, there's this, you know, desperation for, and then as you grow, just like any Christian, no matter where they're at, in prison, in church, in society, whatever, if you grow and if you are seeking that growth and God maybe has a special calling on your life, you are getting more mature, you begin to see differently of who's saying what and when and to who and all of that. And you got to a point which then became a problem for you because it kind of soured your spirit a little bit, and we can talk about that in a minute, but you could finish their sentences. And that's what I'm always talking to the churches about,

when they go into a prison or into a recovery house or into a halfway house or a work release, whatever it might be, if they can finish your sentence, something's off. And it's really just a matter of not stopping long enough at times and reevaluating and saying, what do I need to say? What am I, why do I think that this is good enough? Okay, now, we always bracket that with anybody who goes into any of these types of environments out of a heart of service, hey, keep doing it and all that, but what are we missing? I don't want people to miss what God has already been doing so that it's always a two-way fellowship. It's not just them giving you something that you could finish their sentence for, it's I'm coming to serve and therefore my first act is to see and to listen. And I think the problem why that doesn't happen a lot is because most of them aren't prepared for that to happen. What happens when I see something that convicts me or wait a minute, like it happened in Miami when I said, why am I here? When you got all this stuff going on, you don't need me, but that was the aha moment that said, there's something going on that the outside church needs to understand and it's that disconnect of bringing what is needed and then listening to what the response is so that you can go out and both sides grow.

That's a lot of words, that's a lot of to get to a point where the negative effect that it had and can still have on many inmates who are in prison who are hearing the same thing over and over and over again. What did that do to you at some point? So, I mean, it created a thirst in me because I realized that, okay, I'm drinking from a well and I'm not being satisfied. So I realized that I can't rely on this. So it caused me to start to look where I should have been looking before. I mean, my conversations with God really started to change. But again, when we think about God as a strategist, in his sovereign will, he was positioning me for leadership. Sometime God will afford me to do what I need to do. affect the climate, just to get you to realize that, okay, you're the water, you know what I mean? You're who you're looking for, you know what I mean? But he got to create that, and then you see it, and you know that, wow, you know what, I didn't even know, Lord. So I think what happened for me, and I want to throw this out as you were speaking too, we know that all facilities are different. The dynamics, the spiritual dynamics is different. So I mean, I love the idea of seeing a blueprint and obviously trying to show other facilities or places that, hey, this can work. But again, to your point, as far as the ministries that's going in, with the mindset that, listen, we only can do so much. They got to be here 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. So going in with a church planting mentality or looking for leaders or allowing the Lord to single somebody or note somebody, because God is always working. God has a man or a woman everywhere. That's just the nature of the Father. He'll never leave himself without a witness. But who comes in, who affirms, who says that, okay, this is a possibility, this can be done to challenge that inmate to seek God on that level to where they stop looking for water to come in from the outside and start realizing that you could be the oasis from within the inside. That's the challenge. That's how I

was challenged. But again, every facility don't have a J-Heart. Just to say it mildly, but you know what I mean? It's interesting. It took me a, it's an ever-changing growth. I mean, it's, I started doing this type of ministry a long time ago and I've learned so much every step of the way. And sometimes it takes a long time for God to truly adjust your lens so that you can see what he wants you to see and all things come together at the right time and all of that. And that was definitely true for when we met, I saw it and it was something that I had been trying to kind of see and I was getting, it was getting clearer and then I saw it. And so then you know what's possible and then you know, then it's affirmed, not just for you, but that if in fact someone who is incarcerated comes back or comes to Christ and is redeemed, then what's true in the Bible for somebody that that happens to on the outside is true for the same person on the inside. You get the Holy Spirit, which means you get a gift. And if you're not looking for the gift as an outsider, you'll never be in a position to affirm the gift, which then spurs on you using the gift more because you can't finish my sentence, right? So you can't finish my sentence because all I'm doing is affirming what I see. And we both leave that, like if I go back home and then you have to stay there for a while, at least, you know, somebody saw it and I'm not relying on that anymore, but I'm using that as an anchor to go on. And I do think that's what a lot of people miss. Now, it's not my job to train a bunch of churches on how to see, but I think it is important for people, especially in this age, especially a lot of ministries that want to have that banner of, we do prison ministry, to really understand that because there are casualties that happen when they go in, don't see it, and leave. And you got to a point, and I love this part of your story, you got to a point where even the first time I showed up, you were in a bad place in your spirit. You're like, I'm tired of these same old same olds coming in, right? You were burnt out. And you actually, I was part of Nick V's ministry, and when you found out that he wasn't with me that first time, you tell it, what did you do? So, yeah, I mean, there was advertising, Nick on the Compound, and I remember I had seen that movie, the short film, The Butterfly Circus. So, I was very aware of them, you know, God bless. Pastor Bob, he went on to be with the Lord, but he used to play little movies every Monday,

and that was one of the movies that he played. And just seeing and hearing about Nick and his condition, you know, I just realized that, man, bro, this man ain't making no excuses. Like, he doing it. So of course, you know, that was completely different. So everybody wanted to come just to see the condition. You know what I mean? I wasn't even so much about the message, just like, is this for real? So lo and behold, I come to the chapel, he's not there. And I see you and Gary. And at this point, I was so burnt out on chapel services. You know, it was just so many different chapel services. I just started to just question the value of all the different services. And then some of the services start speaking about the other service. Oh, this church ain't gonna tell you what we gonna tell you. You started getting into all that. That's how they lead. That's how they interact. That's their way of trying to exert their, to try to get more services, more people to come to their services. So anyway, that's just the backdrop of the frustration among other things. So anyway, I come to that service and I look, I don't see Nick. So now I'm thinking like, man, these dudes just be talking

and they don't even know what's going on. I see you, you guys, it was in the beginning. You was like getting ready to start talking. And I was just gonna leave, you know? And as I was getting ready to leave, I mean, there's a voice of the Lord, sit down, sit down. So I sat in the back of the sanctuary and I'll never forget, you just begin to talk and you just gotta look at the time and in the place I was in. It's almost like what happened today, you have absolutely no idea what I'm going through or what I believe that God wants to do and what we've been pushing for. Remember the opposition, we didn't even get into that part from the chaplaincy department, from the very people we were looking to help us, assist us in this vision. And my credibility was always questioned because I was a man wearing blue. Your call, yeah, the chaplain actually told me this. He said this, I just gotta throw this in there. He says, well, I'm not questioning whether the Lord told you to do it, I'm just questioning would he tell you to do it now? You see what I'm saying? And I looked at him and I'm like, wow. You know what I mean? He meant that from the bottom of his heart. Your God won't necessarily tell you

to do what you're doing as an inmate. It's what he was saying to me. You know what I mean? You're an inmate and you're not qualified. And he told me this is what the policy and the procedures say. And you know, I wrestled with that. But anyway, you begin to speak and you begin to share. And I don't, I mean, at that point, when I look back at it, I'm kind of thrilled because you said it had not yet really, you understood just the dynamic and this was something you said you would like to see. And you were speaking it as if this is what God wants to do. You know, you don't have to worry. You don't have to rely on people on the outside. Like God is big enough to build his church here amongst you guys and the leaders. You've been going along those lines. And not only was it confirming the things that I was saying to other men to start focusing on because I'm like, we're the ones drowning. You know, unfortunately they may be drowning but they're not drowning in a manner in a way that we're drowning. So I was, that was kind of like the language I was using and it sounded like you were echoing that. But of course, everybody knew that. You don't know me, I don't know you.

So it just, you just seen heads just turning in the back and everybody looking and then you hit the, you ended up saying that, that historical, making a historical statement that caused the young man to point me out. And here it is. And it's real because I'm here. Right, right. And so that, it brings me back and I get goosebumps but I noticed, I noticed the heads turning. As I'm speaking, I notice like something's going on. Like I'm, and I didn't, I wasn't necessarily thinking it was exactly what I was saying but I've done it long enough to know there's something here, there's something going on here. But I was also still at the same time wrestling with what I had seen and experienced because it just blew me away. And I said some things that were, I mean, maybe prophetic but it was more about, it was really more about if nobody else has told you or affirmed you that you're not crazy, I see it. I basically just said, I see it. Oh, I see it. And that, and they knew what that meant. So covered it, you know. Right. So, so it changed me a little bit in my thinking about how to identify leaders as part of the, you know, the ministry going into prisons

to empower them. The hard job of working with chaplains to see if they can just give you some credibility, inmate-led, you know, what's possible. All of those things began to bubble up to the surface, whereas we, like many other ministries at that time, were doing some different things, but it was still primarily about being there, evangelism, as much discipleship as we could do. We had some curriculum, but when this happened, it was God saying, oh, you're just scratching the surface. You have to go after this in a way that is counter-cultural to the outside and to the inside. Because you said it a minute ago, every state is different, every prison facility is different. Sometimes chaplains don't allow inmate-led programs. Some states frown upon any type of chapel program. I mean, so it's a matter of mission work. You find where God has planted some seeds, and then our job was to go and really water those in a way, but then continually water them by equipping with more content. And, you know, a lot of people don't know all the things that you and I are going to talk about in detail, but when somebody says, hey, you know, send Bibles, you've got more Bibles in the prison than I've ever seen in my life. You even said it one time, we don't need more Bibles, we need affirmation, we need people to say you're credible. And so that's how our ministry shifted a little bit. All that to say, I think that you can look at this a couple different ways. The primary thought process for a church or ministry that does prison ministry is gospel-centric. They think, they believe that they're taking the gospel to you, and that's their job. They think that's their job. And once they've done their job, they withdraw. Now there'll be some relationships created, there'll be some good things that happen, but also a division is created, because it's fellowship without really communion. It's fellowship without credibility.

And so it will only go so far, okay. So until the mindset changes a little bit to the point where somebody says, wait a minute, if I just think this through, if I can just think logically for a minute, these guys have probably heard the gospel a million times. Oh yeah, definitely not a shortage. So what else do I need to be doing? And I found that to be such a hard mindset to crack. Oh, we go in and share the gospel with them. And then this is what we do, and this is what we do. And it's good, but again, they're missing. They're missing something, because there's never a time when they really absorb the fact that maybe I should be going into prison to do ministry with the expectation that God has beaten me there and raised up a man like you, Luther, that has something that I need. And he's challenging me to see if I'm willing to accept what only you know that I need about my life. We do this all the time on the outside. The man of God said this, and how did he know that's just what I needed? That mindset is never reversed for somebody going into prison. How could he ever have something that I need? He's an inmate. Absolutely. Okay. So now, now it's the grace. It's the grace, and this is what I want you to talk about. I want you to talk about the grace that is available and that is used by the inmate population towards the church that comes in. Like you said, knowing sometimes I can finish their sentences, but I'm going to be graceful anyway because I don't want them to stop coming, because it's important that they come. Because what it is at that point is communion, is fellowship. You used a great illustration.

I like what you said. You said when normals show up, because it's an abnormal environment. It's an unstable environment. It's a hostile environment. So typically when volunteers come in regardless of what they're bringing, they're bringing a piece of home, they're bringing a piece of society, they're bringing insight, they're bringing something that gives me an escape for that period of time, regardless of what, because the reality is I got to go back here on this compound, in the jungle, and I have to deal with this reality. So that is almost like, it's like the man in hell in the Bible asking for, asking just if you just drop a drop, that's kind of like what that is, you know, just, I know, I mean, that's a part, but that's, it's just, just give me just something, you know what I mean? I want to say this too, and I think this will be something you will appreciate. It's like, for example, when you think about, and this is just in general, prison as a whole and ministries and their passion, you got some churches that are very passionate about prison ministries and dump a lot of their resources, and that's part of their overall mission. You know what I mean? You got some ministries that's like, all right, I sent a couple of my people in there, you know, but they're not really engaged. They're not really concerned how many people's being converted, what's really happening, what is God really doing? However, think about it. What if everyone wants to live forever? What if they found a fountain of youth? They say, man, there's literally a fountain that you can drink water from, and it's going to cause you to live forever. Everybody would be looking for that. Right. And then the first question everybody's going to ask, where is it? Where is it? What if they say, it's in every prison around the country? Right. Suddenly you're going to either, I'll take, I'll just enjoy my time while I'm here, you know what I mean? So it's kind of like, wherever God is doing something significant and doing something new and different and powerful, if it's in a place that you don't subscribe to,

would you be willing to bypass that just to go see God? Right. Or will you say, oh Lord, I'm glad, you know what I mean? And I think it boils down to that. Yeah. It boils down to, we're living in a time, and this is words that have been said prophetically. I've even heard, what's his name from Texas? He said it back in the early nineties, Kenneth Copeland. Oh, okay. You know, he prophesied this, and it was a sure word of prophecy about what God would be doing in the last days in the prisons, as far as from a revivalistic standpoint, and just the type of leaders that he's raising up to release in the end time to help carry the church because of the experience behind the walls, you know what I mean? And he prophesied that a long time ago, and here it is, we're in the hearing now. But as you said, it's like the Bible say in Revelation, with the four chairmen say, come and see. Yeah, come and see. You know what I mean? So you have to come and see. Right. You know what I mean? You have to taste and see. Right. So you could tell people till their face turn blue, but if you don't come and see and have an experience, or you already have this preconceived notion, and you think that, oh man, if anything, I have to come and give something, then not only are you limiting the power of God, but that's just an experience or an opportunity that you just robbed yourself of. Yeah. And listen, I mean, again, we don't ever want to say somebody's doing it wrong. That's not the message, or that they shouldn't go. But there are certain people that I think that do see something different, and then take that and want to try to help those who have a heart to go in, or to do any kind of ministry that deals with people who are either incarcerated or addicted or anything. Unattractive. Unattractive part of it. Okay. So in their dignity of being created in the image of God, there has to be this willingness, like you said, to go where that living water is. Okay.

And I love that analogy. I love that mental picture of, if you found out it was there, how desperate are you going to be? And here's why I say that. After years and years and years of doing this, and not just doing it the same way, but learning and taking what God has revealed, and growing and changing and shifting and adjusting to what's needed, I have come to a point where now it's very difficult for me, personally, to get on the outside, to get what I long for from a more authentic representation of the body of Christ and all of its diversity, putting that aside. so that they can come together and get a touch from Jesus. They might all be wearing the same clothes, but they have different tattoos, which mean a lot in prison, right? Different backgrounds, different crimes, all the things that could cause division there that we don't think about on the outside. We wear different clothes out here, but there's still, we have options out here. If we don't like the people at a certain place, we have options to go somewhere else. You don't. No, you don't. So who gets elevated in that but Christ. So at some point, this model, this thing God may be trying to show us through the life of an inmate or an addict or somebody who's been redeemed and now possesses this, not only the gift of the Holy Spirit, but also possesses wisdom, experience, just the ability to conquer and overcome obstacles. The difference between what you say is an obstacle and what somebody on the outside says is an obstacle

is totally different. Who do you think God is going to use as they come out? As we were talking about before we started, how many are coming out each year with all of this wisdom, all this treasure that's being overlooked. So as we close this off, I want you to talk about the treasure that's in there and the importance for people on the outside to somehow, some way figure out how to embrace that. Amen. You know, one of my favorite scripts is when you said, cause I remember preaching something about the trash, the treasure in the trash. When it says, when it talks about we have in these earthen vessels, a treasure, that the excellency of the power of God will be of God and not of us. I love that scripture because it's in essence, God is saying, I put the treasure in the trash. I put it in the decay. I put it in the corruptible. I put it in that which is dying, that's fading away. And I put this treasure there that if you're willing to look past that, that's why Paul said, I die daily, you know? And who I am, who I really am is alive, is being built up, is being generated every day, you know? And I think, again, it goes back to having a prophetic lens, being close enough to the heart of God.

I love this analogy. John was able to lean over on Jesus' chest and find out who was going to betray him. He was close enough. Everybody else was like, who's he talking about? John knew exactly. But Jesus said, yeah, the one that dips, that's the one. Because he was close enough to the heart of God. And I think once you get close enough to the heart of God, you'll find out what he's passionate about. He's always giving advance notice. He's going to always show you, hey, it's raining on that side. He gives you, he put questions out there and then he gives you the answer. I said before you, life and death, choose life, you know? So I think it's going to boil down to the churches, the leaders that understand what God is doing. And it's men like you that's aiding in that process. You know, that's the clarion call. You're sounding the alarm about, hey, this is what God is doing. Because some people just don't know, you know what I mean? And everybody's not going to know. That's why God send people in certain places. But when you make the announcement, you grab the attention of those that want to listen, that want to hear, and then their hearts will gravitate towards it because they're close enough to God to understand that the Lord is saying, that's important to me. That has great value. Look past the uniform.

I'm there. They're real. That's salvation. That's me. That's the gift of the Holy Spirit. And then it gives you a brand new appreciation for the power of God. Suddenly you realize that barbed wire and fences can't keep God out. That encourages. Because some of us are out here with barbed wire and fences around our minds, around our lives. Paul says, I am a prisoner of Christ. Maybe we can learn something from that. Maybe there's a posture of a prisoner. There you go, I feel it now. We're closing out right now. Maybe there's a posture of a prisoner that God has specifically put in place that he want every believer to learn from. Learn how to live stripped down, bare, and just confined to me. To where nothing else really matters but me. That's it. And then maybe that's it. That is it. Amen. Amen. Praise the Lord. Amen.

Amen. That is it. That is it. You