Ep 022 || Grace for the Guilty

Well, what's up, Pando family? We are honored and excited to be back with you this week. My name is Derek. This is Brandon. This is Matt. We're part of our staff here at Southeast Christian Church. Matt is our recovery pastor here at Southeast, and Brandon and I are back on the online team with you again. But welcome. If you're looking for the Pando exclusive podcast, this is it. You found it. We hope that you have already had an opportunity to watch the sermon from this past weekend, week four of our In the Beginning sermon series talking about Genesis. And fellas, this week we had Brock O'Dell, one of our student pastors, sharing with us about Genesis four, talking about these two brothers, Cain and Abel. And so before we kind of jump into discussion, Brandon, would you just kind of set up a little bit of the context of the story we're stepping into, and then let's dive deeper into how we can apply this to our lives? Yeah, for sure. So the story of Cain and Abel is complex on a couple different levels, because we really get a picture of it. In it, we get a picture of, I think, the escalation of sin, right? We go from, at the beginning of Genesis three, everything is perfect and everything's great, to there, you get the first sin, you get the curses pronounced on the man, the woman, and the serpent. And then we go right from this eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to Genesis chapter four, immediately, we're at the first murder. This first case of sibling rivalry, this first case of jealousy, anger, I don't know what you wanna call it, but we just see how sin, I mean, it just immediately goes to the end of the spectrum there, right?

Like, okay, well, we've disobeyed God and eaten this fruit. And now one generation later, we're talking about a brother killing his brother, which is just fascinating when you think personally, or even as society in some sense of how sin escalates and really ups the ante there. So we have these two brothers, the first two kids born in the world. And I like how Brock brought that out to think like, oh, that's kind of funny. Like, if you're suddenly going through the first pregnancy, like, what's happening? Yeah, I never thought about that before. Never had either. And I thought he could have went deep on some of those. Like this is the first time that he's saying, it's all your fault. You did this, stuff like that, yeah. But yeah, they're born, you get Cain, who is the firstborn, and then Abel comes after. And we're just told that these two boys had two different career paths, right? That Cain is one who is working the ground. And someone in my small group brought this up, that in doing that, Cain is, he's really picking up the curse that Adam gave him. Adam was cursed with, you're gonna work the ground and it's gonna produce thorns and thistles. And Cain is born into that. That's exactly what he takes upon himself, it's his work. So he is a farmer. And then Abel is born and he becomes more of a shepherd, he's raising flocks. And we're told that each of the boys offers their own specific offering to God, that Cain gives out of the grain that he produces, Abel gives out of the flocks that he produces. And there was a question in the chat online that, well, is it about the fact that Abel is giving a blood sacrifice and Cain is not? And I don't think that's what it is. I think what's happening here, I should back up, because Leviticus allowed grain offerings. Like Leviticus 2 lays this out, like you can offer your crops to God as an offering. So it's acceptable.

I think the key to it is what we read in Genesis 4, 3-4. It says, when it was time for the harvest, Cain presented some of his crops as a gift to the Lord. Abel also brought a gift, the best of the firstborn lambs. So I think we're supposed to see in that contrast. Cain is giving some, Abel is giving the best. And I think that's the distinction to be made there. The writer of Hebrews, we'll talk later, it's Hebrews 11.4, talks about how Abel was giving a better sacrifice. And I think that's ultimately what the difference between them comes down to. Like Cain is kind of going through the motions of like, well, I know I'm supposed to do this. I'm supposed to set this aside and give it to God. Whereas Abel is very specific about giving the first and the best, kind of that language we used in Move this year is he's giving God what is first and best. So Cain sees this, he sees that, he perceives, I guess, that Abel is more favored by God in this. And so... Which is probably frustrating. Yes. Yeah, it says he is... For the only other dude on earth that's kind of like you, and you kind of have your dad, but... Have your brother be the one that's favored that... Well, and in that culture too, well, reading this through a Middle Eastern culture lens, like the firstborn is supposed to be the one who has more honor and who's given more. Ah, gotcha. And so Cain sees Abel, the secondborn, getting more of this, and I'm sure that spurs that up at him. Like he's, the text says he's angry, he's dejected, he doesn't know how to handle it. And God confronts him on this and says, like, hey, like, don't you know that if you do right, like, it'll be fine. You're like, you're gonna be fine, just do what is right. Sin is crouching at your

door and it wants to control you, but you need to control it and you need to make it your master. And Cain does not listen. He doesn't heed God's warning to him and he lures Abel out into the field and he attacks him and kills him. God later comes to ask Cain, you know, well, where's your brother? And we get that very famous line that Cain has, well, am I my brother's keeper? Like, I'm not his secretary, like, I don't know where he's at. But God, just like he questioned Adam, right? Like, well, what are you guys doing? What's going on here? Abel tries to pass it off, but God knows exactly what's up. And so he says that Abel's blood cries out from the ground and because of this, this is gonna be the consequence and the curse on you. You're gonna be kind of banished away from your people, from your family. You're gonna go to the city. And Cain protests a little bit, like, well, if people see me, then they're gonna kill me now. And God says, no, there's gonna be a protection on your life. Like, if someone kills you, there's a real consequence of that. And there are a lot of peculiarities in this text, because so far we've only read of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel. And so when Abel's like, hey, if I run across anybody else, they're gonna kill me. It's like, well, who are you talking about, bro? Like, who else is out there? Well, it's an interesting fear to have, right? Like, when it's really only been you, your parents and your brother to have that fear. But there's a lot to unpacked in that, right? Things go so quickly. So what initially jumps out to you, Matt, from that story that you're like, gosh, that just hits me. Yeah, I love it. I think, kind of jumping off what Brandon was saying at the end, like, there's pieces of this I don't understand that, like, who's gonna kill you, bro? Like, there's four of you and you went from 100 down to three. Four of you to three, who's gonna kill you? And there's pieces of it that I don't understand and don't make sense. And as a person in long-term recovery, I wrestle with this, but I try to rest myself in a place of like, if I could understand all of this, that would put God on the same level as me. And if God is on the same level as me, then I'm out of luck as far as recovery goes, because I tried everything possible on this planet to find sobriety. You know what I mean? I had to have a power greater than myself to do that. And so, like, for me, there's gonna be pieces of this that I'm like, I don't understand this. I don't understand this. So if you're, like, if you're watching the podcast, and you're like, this doesn't make sense to me, hey, well, join the club. Like, it doesn't make sense to me either. Brandon's going, where do they come from? You know what I mean? So that jumps out. I thought Brock did a great

job. There's a couple things I loved the way that he unpacked. One was I loved, if you watched it, like the vulnerability present tense. I thought that was something I really connected with, because this is a journey for me, and I am still in the process of, I'm still growing. I'm still trying to figure this out, what it looks like to heal all the stuff that was behind what led to my choices to use substances for so long. And so, it's still a daily thing for me, you know. So anytime I see somebody up front that is willing to talk about their struggles without putting a past tense verb stuff on the end of it, I'm really connected with that. And so Brock's vulnerability in that, I thought, okay, that really connected with me. The other piece that I love that he talked about is he opened the door for me to think about this for more just like a family dynamics role. You know what I mean? Like you brought it up, like when he was like, this is the first pregnancy, and it was like, oh crap, first pregnancy cravings. There was no Krispy Kreme. You know, just little things like that, that I didn't think through. I've never thought through this story in this lens before. And I feel like when I read this story, I feel like I identify more with Cain than I do Abel. And so, like, you know, thinking through the potential family dynamics of this, right? Like the way Brock brought it out, like, you know, there's the fall, and then God sets it right and says, your offspring is gonna do this, right? And so, like, the pressure that Cain could have felt when they have a boy, and it's like, oh, here it is. Yeah. He's the one, he's the one. Well, then all of a sudden it becomes evident in the family dynamics that he's not the one, that he's not fulfilling that. And so, like, you end up getting all the weight, all the pressure of the family, you know what I mean? And then like, and then here comes little angel Abel, the baby of the family. Like, you know, and I don't know. I think maybe there's some some of us on the podcast right that are gonna relate with that like that it's like You know like I was the oldest and all of it fell on me and it was like this was my life and this is what I had to deal with and then my siblings come along or something, you know younger siblings come along and it's like it just seemed like Things were so much Easier for them, you know, and I carried the weight of some of that stuff So I feel like because that my mind was given like a place to open up to the family dynamics

It makes me realize like, you know, the the possibility the nuance of the offering Yeah, right like it was like, you know There's the it wasn't just like i'm gonna hold back because I just want to stick it to god You know what? I mean? It was just kind of like mom and dad told me to do this. There's some bitterness that's there I've never measured up to them. I don't feel good enough It's like no matter what I do and all of that is because this thing with god And now he's want me to give him stuff and it's like i'm gonna give him stuff So he'll shut up and get off my back. Yeah, but i've got I don't have this loving viewing, you know This loving view of my relationship with him, you know, and it comes out in that I think That is so good. And yeah, because I think with the talking about like the relational dynamics like within their family I'd never really thought about that, you know because I think maybe Because some of the other parts of the story are so alarming or jump in your face And but I think brock brought a like a realness to this that was like, yeah, like Like it like I can see how man that would be so difficult Like to see this especially in that context if like it's just your mom and dad then it's you But then it's your brother that comes along and for whatever reason Right. He ends up being this one that's favored by god and you're not that god accepts his offering and not yours And then kane's trying to manage that in his mind of like well, what do I do with this? Right and and he murders his brother and I can only imagine Like that was probably I mean even for us to read it, you know, we can see it through our lens now I'm like, okay like yep like that happened. That was really bad, but I can only imagine then of being like man like Like was that possible? Like How did how do you like was that even a thing? like how did he come to that conclusion, but I think we can like you said matt for so many of us being able to see ourself in kane of like man Like I kind of feel what he was processing through right there I can kind of feel that anger that jealousy that envy whatever it was um, and especially one of the things I really liked was when

Brock was talking about how in the garden You could kind of hear this external conversation going on. Yeah, right between the serpent And eve and then here right? It's kind of this internal dialogue, right? That's going on this internal dialogue that's going on between temptation And kane and ultimately, uh, right one of the things that Brock had mentioned was that sin is always knocking Right, but you don't have to let it in Right. So sin is always knocking but you don't have to let it in So brock expanded on that a little bit, but when you guys hear that phrase What does that mean to you? Like how have you seen that in your own life? Oh, man, uh, you know as you were talking just I mean it immediately made me think of like what paul is talking about in romans seven and eight, you know Where he's talking about this uh Almost for the christian there being two natures at work within us, right that there's this sinful nature. There's that inner monologue that you know kane is dealing with that we all deal with of These internal desires that are telling me what to do and then paul looking and saying well But we also have the spirit in us who is trying to talk to us the other way and be like Hey, not like don't do this. Don't live this way This is not you know What god would would have you to do and and I think you know That's that's the tension that he uh that paul talks about when when he says, you know What I want to do I don't do because the good the good I want to do I don't do that But the bad I don't want to do like i'm all over that man and I think for all of us as christ followers like that is The struggle right and that is the dilemma that I I still have this this And my internal monologue is jacked up and you know, it wants things that are contrary to what god wants me to have But you know, I I have this spirit in me who's also saying like no No, like no trying to remind us of scripture trying to pull, you know, pull us away from those things and I and I think that's the

The fact that that we see it a little bit in kane here that I mean god is directly talking to him Like hey knock it off man. Like you're going down a path. Yeah, that is not giving a clear warning Yeah, like clear warning. Yeah, and and to see like oh that struggle was there and to even see someone as I don't know Spiritually accomplished as paul like he wrote books of the bible and he's saying like hey, I can't get this right Like I can't sort this out because these these two forces these two voices are pulling at me uh, and I I find myself keep choosing the wrong one. And I think, man, that's an everyday thing, an every hour thing of, am I gonna do what I wanna do? Am I gonna do what God wants? And that's ultimately the struggle in Genesis 3, it's the struggle in Genesis 4. It's the struggle on March 30th, 2026. It's the, am I gonna do what I wanna do or am I gonna do what God wants to do? And I mean, that's what we're gonna fight against and that's what we have to choose every day. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, because I feel like Genesis 4, when Cain kills Abel, it's like the culmination, right? Even because it wasn't like he'd watched a bunch of... You can't blame this murder on violent video games. You know what I mean? That's not where this came from. It's not because you watched too much Rambo or whatever when you were a kid. I feel like this was the culmination, right? I think it's okay to assume that you heard the dialogue between Adam and Eve in the middle of the temptation in the fall. You heard what they were saying about each other after the fall, like, this woman you gave me told me to do it. You know what I mean? There's a fighting there. So the pressure, I picture, because I said, I feel like I can connect with Cain in this, that as you're growing up and you're watching mom and dad and they're still fighting, and it's like you internalize that fight of like, I was supposed to be the one that was gonna make all this stuff better, and I didn't do it. I didn't succeed. Mom and dad are still fighting, this stuff is still broken, and I'm not living up to it. I feel like, and it was like it all culminates in this moment. And I don't know, maybe if you're listening or watching this with us, you can connect with that in pieces and story of your life, right? Where it was like everything just kind of culminated in this moment and it was like, bam, it hit. You know what I mean? And so I act out on it, and it wasn't so much like how much I hated Abel, it wasn't so much that God didn't want my sacrifice. This was the culmination of everything in my life, me not measuring up and feeling like that it wasn't good enough. And so I just act out on that, you know? And I'm so,

I love how you brought in Romans 7, because I'm over raising my hand like that. It's like some of the anchor verses, the two things as a person who's been a pastor for 25 years and only sober for five and a half of those, the things I connect to are the people in scripture that let me know that it's like, okay, I'm not beyond redemption. You know what I mean? And so I love David's writings in the Psalms, because David's writings almost show that he would qualify for a mood stabilizer. He was all over the place. He is up and down. One moment, it's me and God taking over the world. The next moment, I wanna die. You don't even care about me. And it's like, his swings go way up and down. And I'm like, that's so good for a guy like me that still has lots of up and downs. When you read, like you brought up in Romans 7 about this guy named Paul that writes this stuff, right? And it's like, he says in 724, like what a wretched man I am. Who will save me from this body of death? You know what I mean? And I'm like, oh, I can connect with that. And what I love, I just, I heard this not too long ago and I don't know why, I never thought of it, but Paul didn't write the Romans letter and then be like, I'm gonna stop here in chapter 7 and then I'm gonna write verse 8, chapter 8 here. Like there was none of that. Like all the chapter stuff was added by the people that were compiling it all. And so like what he wrote right after those, what a wretched man I am. Who will save me from this body of death? Thanks be to God our Father for sending Jesus Christ. Like the next stuff he writes is there's now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And I freaking love that. Like, you know, because I need to be brought back to that reminder because that's one of the pieces about Cain's story that I think is scary to connect with. Cause it's like, hey, you did it. You're cast out, sucks to be you. You're going to have a really rough life. And I'm not going to let anybody kill you. Like you're going to be miserable for a long time. Like, you know what I mean? Like I'm going to fix it where nobody will kill you. And you don't see a real like, you know, this is not a Hollywood ending. You know, we can't watch this of like rough dark times. And it's like, but for us in Christ Jesus, there's no condemnation. Yeah. And you know, and for us, you know, recording this this week, that's why we celebrate Easter, right? Is that, you know, the qualification for salvation is that you're a sinner, right? Like, you know, like Jesus talked about this many times in the New Testament that it's like, hey, I did not come for the healthy. I came from for the sick, right? And the truth is, is that we're all sick, but there's only few people that will recognize and put their hand up

and say, no, I mean, like I'm one of the sick ones. Like I'm one of the sick ones. Like those, like those of us that are willing to put our hands up and say that are the ones that, you know, become eligible, not because of us, but because of what Christ has done on the cross. And like you said, that, you know, now there's no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus. And what Jesus would teach us is that, you know, sin, it's not... just like the adultery, murder, stealing line, like it becomes much deeper, right? It's this culmination of all of these things that are going on inside of us over the course of our life. And what Scripture teaches us that I believe is that when we place our faith in Christ, we've been given the Holy Spirit, right? That the Spirit of God will live in each of us, and He plays a role as God to help convict us of sin, to help us live this life that God is calling us to live. But the tension that you guys brought up is that, gosh, even following Jesus, it can feel impossible, impossible to not sin. So how do we manage that tension? Yeah. I know there's a lot of smart people that have wrote lots of books on that, and that doesn't make any sense, right? If somebody figures it out, I'd love to hear it. Like, it's great. You know, well, I think there's a couple different things that come to my mind. When you were talking about the culmination, I immediately thought of what Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, that if... You've heard it said, do not murder, but I tell you, if you're angry with your brother, you've already committed murder in your heart, or... Yeah, great. Yeah, you... Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Jesus. Really encouraging. You've heard not commit adultery, but I tell you, if you look at a woman lustfully, you've already committed adultery. And I don't think... We talked this weekend about temptation is not sin. I don't think that's what Jesus is talking about there. I think what Jesus is talking about is the fact of recognizing that sin where it starts, right? Of recognizing like, hey, if... You can say, well, I've never murdered anybody, but if you've been angry with them, you've started down that path. You're closer to that path than you think you are. You could say, I've never cheated on my spouse, but if you've looked at someone lustfully, you can... You're

closer down that path than you think. And I think what Jesus... Part of what Jesus is doing there is just opening up our eyes to the way sin works. It's like, it very rarely comes at you. Like you said, it didn't come... It came like, hey, you should kill Abel. It started with, how dare Abel take your place as a firstborn? How dare he have the place of prominence? And then it kind of worms its way in. And I think that what Jesus is doing there is just opening our eyes up to temptation and saying like, hey, if you think you are far away from this, you're not. You're not. You have to recognize like, this is where it starts. This is the gateway. And then it's gonna pull you further on... It's gonna pull you further down that path quicker than you think it will. Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, I connect it back to when I was just trying to figure out sobriety. There was probably the first 18 months of being sober when stuff would hit for me. Like, I just didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to do. I knew a lot of what not to do. And so for the first 18 months, I literally would have situations would pop up and I would be like, well, I'm gonna do the opposite of what feels right here. Because what feels right to me has pulled me down a path of self-sufficiency, self-will run riot, like we talk about in recovery literature. And I end up in a place where I'm miserable long enough, where I try to find something to change the way I felt. And I flip the switch, I bring the dragon back in the house. And then in no time, I'm blowing my life up again. That's what I do. So it was like, I've got to do the opposite. So in the moments... And I don't even mean like, should I steal this or should I not steal this? Because that's pretty freaking obvious. But the moments when I start feeling less than and insecure, and my natural tendency is I wanna withdraw from people and get in my head and isolate myself. It'd be like, this feels comfortable and natural to isolate. I'm not gonna do that. I'm just gonna do the opposite. And I don't know, I can't qualify if that was always the wisest decision in the world, but it started me down a path of like, there was a different way to do this. And I feel like there's a lot of what's it look like to wrestle in that, A, I think it's being okay in the wrestle. I think we have this mindset of like, my life was such a... I'm gonna use a word I'm not gonna use on a church podcast. My life was such of a show that like, I gotta figure whatever. Now that I've said yes to Jesus, you know what I mean? It's almost like the scene for A Brother Where Art Thou. I think people ever seen that movie where they take him down, they baptize him in the river, and he comes out of the river and was like, I've been set free. And it's everlasting is my reward. And he said,

what about that bank you knocked over? And you said that you didn't do it. He said, I was lying. And the preacher told me I was forgiven for that one too. You know what I mean? And it's like, everything's gonna be good. Everything's gonna be great now. And then all of a sudden you start wrestling in that. And it's not even necessarily outside situations that are putting tension on me. It's the internal stuff. I'm still trying to satisfy whatever I had before with something else. It's like the brokenness, the fear, the insecurity, the vulnerability, and feeling Less than not good enough got to perform got to be known for something got to make sure I control what you think about me Well, I removed getting high away from that or drunk away from that and I've still got those things You know what? I mean? And it's like totally it's being okay That I'm not okay, and it's not realizing it's like okay now I've accepted Jesus. Everything's gonna be good It's like no man It's still it's still a challenge and I think what I love to be able to take away you brought up Brandon was like God's questioning You know what? I mean? It wasn't like and I think there's a tone thing to this I'm probably gonna do a whole deep dive in this and our recovery stuff, right? Because I get text from my wife and you can tell by the words she used of whether what what kind of mood it is Oh, yeah, so if you get a text from this in my insignificance, where are you at? Yeah doesn't feel really good Yeah, I'm supposed to be somewhere else But if what I get a text it says where you at and it's why a where you at it's like, okay Yeah, this is not bad. Yeah, you know what I mean? You know, yeah, and and I think we read those what we read those things from God like we need to read those questions like Hey, where yet? You know what? I mean? Like it is it like it is him pursuing that like he's asking questions He doesn't need the answers like when he when he came after Adam and them it wasn't like he was going what happened I was on the toilet. I didn't see it You know what? I mean? But it was like he pursuing giving you an opportunity at that connection and relationship and so like even after Cain You know let all the family dynamics and the baggage he had the wounds that he had from all the his family of origin and if you Got it, you know got a crappy family of origin and wounds, man I hope you can connect with that that like even after the offering God still comes to him and says hey

You know and asked him a question like he's still after that connection, you know So I think leaning into that like I don't have to God's not happier with you We tell this all the time in recovery. God's not gonna be more happy with you at 90 days sober than he is day one There's nothing you have done to make God love you any less and there's nothing you can do to make God love you anymore You know, so being able to sit in that allows me to navigate the wrestle between man. I still want some stuff. It ain't good Yeah, you know why cuz my flesh likes it yeah, if I'm struggling in a sin There's one reason a big part of me likes it, you know So so, you know, I think one of the things we've seen so far in Genesis is that there's obviously Opposition to God, you know, you we see that in the garden which blows my mind It's like okay There is clearly an opposition some sort of force being what everyone would call that that is an opposition to God and and his holiness and his plan and one of that We would consider Satan or the devil we would consider evil's intention right one of their strong of its strategies is to Influence humanity right influence humanity I mean he went straight for Eve right and I think even here right you see that kind of rear in its ugly head And so what? Kind of question for you guys, I don't know if it's different for both of you or maybe the same But like what do you guys think? like evil's Strategy is when it comes to temptation. Like what is it trying to do? Is that Satan? What do we call that? How do we identify that and maybe even versus like maybe where we just get ourselves into trouble, right? Maybe worth asking. Well, you know, I mean, I think I think it's I think there are a lot of different ways Evil influences us today. I think there are some times. Well, there are a lot of times I think we're just that sinful nature within us is so messed up that that we can pull ourselves away Like it's it's you know, the older we get even the more we kind of get swayed by that You know, I also think you know John in his in first John will talk about you know the world kind of having this this impact on us and he you know, I so I think from from his standpoint

He looks at just the systems and the structures and the the ways of power that the world sometimes works under and says hey This is designed to keep pulling you into that and I think we see that today I mean, I think I think we see it maybe more than ever because it's so easy right on Social media and the internet and like we have devices in our hands that can get us into trouble if In ten seconds, you know So, you know all of these things are more accessible than they've ever been you think about I was reading something last week about Just a proliferation of like sports gambling on Mobile devices and stuff like that and how much people have lost because of that and it's well Well, yeah, it's more available than it was before, you know, you used to be have to go Down to the boat or whatever and place bets now you can pull out your phone should do that sort of thing so So I think, you know, more than ever, our world is wired to tempt us in ways that just make it easy to get into things we shouldn't. Yeah. The thing that lays for me is like I was talking to somebody who was a missionary. A missionary is somebody that, like, is saying yes to Jesus and they feel called to, like, go live in a specific place. And this family, this couple and family had lived overseas in a different country in an area where, you know, there wasn't a lot of resources of things. And she was sharing with me when they came home that she, like, had a nervous breakdown in the cereal aisle at the grocery store. Because it was like the amount of options and choices was overwhelming. Wow. It was like, I don't know what to do with all of this. And I feel like that really touches on what you're saying. Like, the American, the way it is, is like, like, there's, and I was, this is mine. Like, what is, how does evil work in your life? You know, you won't be happy unless. Ah, gotcha. You won't be happy unless. Or you know what you're missing. Like, this is really, this is what you're missing. And I think like that when I think we look around and it's like everything around us screams, you know, you won't be happy unless, or you know what you're missing. And I think even, even in a setting like for, you know, for our people that are watching this right now, like, I think we can project some of that on God, right?

Like that we, and it tears that down because I watch when I write with back and forth and it's like, will you pray that the parole board will take this on? Or will you, will you pray that I get a new trial? Or will you pray with this thing? And it's like, I'm believing that God's going to do it. And it's like, we've almost in that same way kind of bought it. Now, I don't think there's anything wrong with pursuing justice in a case. I think I'm a hundred, I call it the legal system, not the justice system, because a lot of it really depends on how much money you got. It's not necessarily about what's right or wrong or the truth or it's not the truth. It's just what can you afford and how that stuff goes. It's completely the reality in America, you know? So, but like we lock on this thing almost like it's, well, I'm going to trust God with this. And it's like, if I just had this, then everything would be okay. Then things would be right. Then everything, then everything would be good. And the reality is like, there's still struggle. If you get the thing that you're asking for, there's still struggle on the other side of that. Like some pardon that comes down from somebody's desk, and it would fix a lot of things. And I think there's probably a lot of people watching this podcast that they deserve one of those things. But like, even if that happens, the struggle, it's going to still be a struggle. It's still going to be difficult. And for me, evil comes at this like, you know what you're missing? Which I feel like that's what he hit Eve with, right? Oh, no doubt. It was just like, you know what you're missing? Yeah. This is good. Well, God's trying to keep something. But you know what you're missing right here? You're missing this. And it's like, oh, if I just had that, everything would be better.

Yeah. And that's ultimately, I mean, the lie behind that, like you were hinting at is, well, God is withholding this from you. Yes. And so you have to go get it. And that is, that's where you've really got crossed up for sure. Yeah. Well, no doubt. I mean, you're talking about in Genesis 3, Genesis chapter 3 verse 6. I mean, just think of some of these words. When the woman saw... This is after she's conversed with the serpent. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took its fruit and ate. And that just, again, it's this thing that's stirring in her and stirring in her and stirring in her, and it's becoming even more desirable and good. And what the serpent's doing in that moment, it's that he's pulling her further and further and further and further away from God's voice, from what he wants into this thing, like you said, that, hey, well, actually it's not just that... You think it's gonna kill you? No. It's not gonna kill you. Actually, it's gonna do the opposite. And God knows that, and he doesn't want you to have it. And I think a lot of us fall into that trap in a lot of ways, no matter what it is. It could be lust of something that you're like, man, I'm not putting this person's address into my GPS to go over there. Like, no, I'm not putting their address in. I'm just kinda peeking around the corner. Like, I'm not. But then you find yourself getting closer and closer and closer. And then you're like, well, how did this affair happen? And it's like, well, you're a little bit deceiving yourself in the midst of all of this.

And there's even kind of an interesting picture of that in Genesis chapter three, right? Because the serpent is tempting them at the tree. Why are you hanging around that tree? Like, God has given you the one tree out of all these trees not to eat, and you're like, well, let's hang out by this tree where we're getting it from, like, yeah, don't even go around that tree, like, stay away from it. And yeah, I think that's where the slope catches us, you know, like, I'm just gonna linger here for a little bit, and pretty soon the serpent has got you right where he wants you. Yeah. And I track with that, right? Like, I feel like there's that, I think what I would like to, what I try to articulate about what it's like in my relationship with God now in sobriety, it's that, like, it's giving God a chance to meet those things. Sure. Right? Just give him a chance. Like, and I feel like we've been exposed to prayer or ceremonial things in a way where it's like, I need to use languages like specific words when I pray to God instead of just, instead of going with a, hey, God, I feel really alone. I feel really alone. Yeah. You know what I mean? And it's not, I mean, I'm not following that with a request of like, so can you bring X, Y, and Z into my life? It's just like, God, I feel really alone. And then I don't have, then I'm not, me and God are in it. I'm not the one that's then chasing after that to try to fix my aloneness. You know what I mean? Or God, I feel really scared. I feel scared right now in this. There's this going on in my life, this going on in my life, this going on in my life. I feel really scared. And allowing God to be present with you in that fear versus instead of going, I feel scared, so now I've got to do this, this, and this to make it work. Like right now, like, you know what I mean? It's like, I'm, because I think it blows, it kind of grows out of that. I feel this way. And so I've got to do something to figure that out. I've got to find an answer to that. And then we get down this path where it's like, oh gosh, like here I am, where we, we, we, we see the end result. A lot of, a lot of that times, like we see the end result with how that go, but all of it really started way back here. And we're not, we feel like I'm not allowed to ask God for help. It's like, God, I just feel, I feel alone. Like I feel alone and I don't know what to do with that. And I don't want to do anything that's going to pull me away from you. I don't know what to do with it, but I don't want to do anything that pulls me away from you. Can like, you just, can you just meet me in that? And then we don't get down the path of like, well, I feel alone. So when I feel alone, I've got to do this. I've got to get to this. So I

won't feel alone. And how do I, what's the steps to get from feeling alone to that? Well, I need to do this. I need to do this. I need to do this. And then boom, now I'm not alone. Or I feel like I'm not valued enough. Like, you know, I hit like the, like the GPS or a fare, like pulling after that. Right. It's like, like there's a lot of steps between, but the bottom line was, hey, I don't feel valued. You know what I mean? And so like, instead of going, Hey God, I feel like, I feel like I'm being overlooked. You know what I mean? I feel like I feel like I'm being overlooked and asking God to meet you in that. You know, I love it. So. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think for us, like as we head into, again, like as we record this this week, we have Easter coming up this weekend. And like, it's not that we don't celebrate, you know, the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus every Sunday, right? Because that's why we gather and we meet, you know, because we're celebrating that what Jesus, Jesus accomplished everything necessary for our salvation. Like 100%. We didn't even add like a percentage point onto that. And that's humbling, right? And I think there are times when depending on our church background, who we are around, like we can, you know, sometimes we may have been around people that act like, man, I always got my stuff together. Nothing's ever wrong in my life. I'm perfect. And even though people may not say that on the outside, a lot of us want people to feel that way of like, man, like, man, I really want people to feel like my life is together. You know, but one of the things I continue to realize is that, you know, it's almost as if like, you know, as when we were born, we were all born with these like perfect white shoes on. And as a toddler, like, what are you doing? Like you're running through mud, you're running through the dirt throughout the rest of our lives. Like, man, like right now, like I like wearing white shoes. I do. But you know what sucks is that white shoes get pretty freaking dirty. You got them like three wears until they're no longer white anymore. For sure. For sure. But to me, it's like, that's kind of like the sin in our life that, man, the longer you live, the longer you do life, man, the more yellow and disgusting and dirty those white shoes are gonna look, right? And that's kind of the state of the sin and of our soul in our life. And you know, and so when Jesus comes to say, hey, like I have something better for you. Like I have something better for you. Like you're pretending like your shoes are white, and let me tell you, they're not. They're not. And the only way you're gonna be able to walk into my father's kingdom into my kingdom is by wearing perfectly white shoes. And here's the thing, it's not because of what the shoes you

wearing. It's the shoes that I'm going to give you. You can put on my shoes. No matter what your background is, no matter what the mistakes are that you made, you can wear my shoes. And it's not because he's doing it out of obligation. What blows my mind—and I never thought about this before—one of Brock's points from this last weekend was that God loves Cain. God loves Cain. Right? And the reason why we get to wear those perfect white shoes is because of Jesus being holy. And he came to live the life that we should have lived, right? But we couldn't. We couldn't do that. Jesus had to do that, right? We get to walk into heaven because of his perfect white shoes. Not ours. Not ours. And it's because he loves us. He loves us. So Matt, kind of final words. What do we do with that? For our pando family, what do we do with that? It's not that this God that's far off somewhere is just like, you know what? Let me just do this thing that's gonna be real easy. And you know what? Yeah, you can come in. But it's like, no, I'm gonna do this super intentional thing because I want to have a relationship with you. What do we do with that this Easter? Gosh, I love it. I think Easter sets a tone for a chance to reflect, right? We celebrate it all the time, but it's like certain times around the year, you just get a chance to set aside and really focus on it. And so that's what we get to do right now. And I think I wrestle, I relate back to the God loves me, but having to unpack and disconnect what I understand of love away from that. I understand love conditionally. You know what I mean? I knew God loved me, but I just didn't think he liked me. I pictured him and the angel sitting in heaven on the day when I said the prayer and got baptized. And it's like, you know, it kind of, he's like, oh gosh, Matt's going to say the prayer. Please don't say the prayer. Crap. He said it. He said the prayer. So now he's in the family. We have to give him all the things that we give him. Like write his name down. He's in right now, but understanding that God likes me. And it's because what I viewed, how I viewed God's love was how I viewed every other kind of love I experienced on this earth, which was on the purest form is still conditional. You know, there's conditions involved in that. And I love what first John says about that. God is love, not God love, not that he, like, because then it's like, what, where I know that love is based out of is not based on whether I do good or not. Like he loves me because he is love. And so there's a lot like you, you hinted at it, right? Like there's some stuff in the old Testament that I'm like, God loves, but there's some, this gets a little wild. Like I'm in some stuff right now, my reading plan that I'm like, okay, God, like that's rough. What did the donkey do to y'all?

Like, well, you got to kill all the animals too. Like, all right, whatever, you know, but like, I think all those doubts or all those questions for me kind of get summed up in Jesus. When God sat in heaven with us, his response to our brokenness was not to sit in heaven to keep heaping demands on us. His response to our brokenness was to enter into that and walk around like a dude, like a human with flesh. And so like that, if I ever have questions or doubts about like, okay, where's God at in that? It is his response to our brokenness was to become one of us. And so like in that, I can see, okay, this is what God really thinks about me. And he is love. He doesn't love me based on what I do. Like he doesn't love me any less when I go back into the sin or to go back into the thing that I go back to the fleshly desire, the thing that I thought was going to help me feel what I wanted to feel. He doesn't love me any less than, he doesn't love me any more when it's like I'm picking up a token on another sobriety birthday. Like, you know, God loves because he is love. And so, you know, being able to separate the performance aspect of that, you know, which is, it really is a challenge because we connect every relationship we have, right? Like, Oh, no doubt. Yeah. Every relationship, no matter how pure the love, even the most purest relationships that we can have as humans, right? There's still pieces of that that is conditional. Oh, no doubt. Absolutely. Brandon, any final thoughts? Man, I don't know that I could say anything better there. Like, that was just great. Like, you know, we talk about Easter week and all of that and think about Jesus dying in our place, and there is a picture of that in the story of Cain and Abel, right? Because you have one brother who is not doing what's right, who won't listen to God, who won't follow. You have one brother who's obedient, and it's the brother who's obedient who dies. And you get a picture of that in the cross is that we are all Cain, we've all messed up, we've all refused to heed the voice of God when he's warning us not to go a certain way or do a certain thing. And yet it's our good brother, it's the better Abel who goes to the cross, who dies in our place so that we can continue to have life. And I think even in the midst of this messed up story... we get a picture of the one ultimately promised in Genesis 3.15, that you have one day, there is a descendant of the woman who's gonna come and make everything right, and he's the better brother who's gonna die for us. That's so good. And y'all, that's why we get to celebrate Easter, because we have Jesus who

lived the life that we could never live, right, and died the death that we deserved. He didn't deserve that, right? He was perfect. He was holy. He was fully God and fully man, and yet it was because of all of those qualifications that I just mentioned that he was a worthy sacrifice for us. And he didn't just do that just because he had to. He did it because he loves you. Like, he knew that, even as Matt was talking about earlier, that there is this huge hole in our hearts and in our lives that we try to replace with a million things. And I know I have, maybe you have, I know each of us here at the table have, but the only thing, the only person that can fulfill that is in the person of Jesus Christ. And so, fellas, the way that people can make that decision is by simply placing your faith in Jesus. It's by recognizing that we are sick, we are sinners, that we don't have our stuff together, right? And to be able to declare with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and repent of the way that we've been living, right? That like, hey, I recognize, God, that the way I've been living is not the way that you're calling me to live. Because like Brandon just said, we all should identify as king because we've all disobeyed the voice of the Lord. But guys, that's why the message of Easter is so good, that we get to be a part of a family of God together as Christians, and that includes you too, if you have placed your faith in Jesus. And so y'all, thank you again for being with us this week. We have a special service coming this upcoming Friday, it'll drop either Friday or Saturday, later in the evening Friday or maybe sometime on Saturday, we have a Good Friday service for you. We're looking forward to that. It's a service that'll be different than the service on Easter, because that Good Friday service, we're just taking a look at and honoring and recognizing what Jesus had to do on Friday, right? Of that holy week that we're talking about as a church, that He died on the cross, right? And He was dead, and then on the third day was risen from the grave, and then we'll celebrate Easter together on Sunday. Y'all, we love you, we'll see you next time, and have a good one.