Controlling vs Caring with Lysa TerKeurst

is trying to learn what it looks like to fully live and follow Jesus in the middle of real life. It is one thing to be someone on Sundays, but what about Monday through Saturday? And so here, we're going to talk about faith and making a difference in the messy, ordinary moments where it's often the hardest to live out. Some weeks, I'll share what God is teaching me. Other weeks, I'll sit down with leaders, pastors, athletes, friends. There's no fluff, just encouragement and truth for your life between Sundays. I'm so glad you're here. Well, hey, crew. Let's go. Welcome to Life Between Sundays. It is Adam and Emily. We are back for another episode today. Bless to be here. Bless to be here. The other day, I texted, texted you this. The other day, I was listening to a podcast that ended and then one of our episodes started. Oh, gosh. You crushed it, by the way. I just need to give a shout out to Emily Long's because she crushes it on the regular, but whatever I hear my voice on this thing, I'm like, I got to turn that off. Oh, my gosh. My voice is screeching. It's terrible. Not yours, mine. Anytime I hear my voice, I'm like, oh, do I really sound like that? Which kind of sucks? Because you kind of like talk for a living. It's a bad thing for me. Oh, gosh. Hi, low buffalo. Go ahead. Yeah. For me. Hi. Yeah. Oh, I got all kinds of everything. My high, just last week, I saw the Lord provide in a whole bunch of ways. That's going to be a general. But just sometimes you're like, Lord, are you going to come through? Are you going to provide? And then he does a whole bunch of things that only he can do. So that would be my high. That's very, very general. But just seriously, there was, I had seven different meetings last week that I did not create that just happened. And it was really, really cool. So that is my high, my, my buffalo. My youngest son, Anderson, is currently, I'm a big tree guy. I've always loved trees. You just got very, we just ordered some trees for your cabin. We ordered some quaken aspens. So I've always loved, I've always loved trees. But my youngest son, he is into them as well. So he is currently collecting all different types of leaves. We've trespassed on people's front lawns to pull a leaf. Let's just keep him in like a bucket or he's got a, he actually has an air Jordan box that he puts them on. So he's got this box. And he's currently working on a tree book, which I think is just like, uh, he's trying to figure out a way that he can have more screen time. And so I know,

he types it out. He types it out. But actually he's, he's working on his book and he's, he's been doing a whole bunch of things. So that would be my buffalo. If you have a funky tree or a unique tree, give me a shout out and I'll pass it on to Anderson Weber and he'll trespass and he'll just take one leaf. So it's, it's a very mild trespassing. He's just bar, very, very quickly, one link. It was funny because, uh, he asked mom if he could, my wife, if he could, uh, go on people's land and get leaves. And she said, absolutely not. And then he's like, dad said it was totally okay. So he, he outed me there. My low is just been the weather in South Dakota, the last two and a half weeks. It feels like the last two and a half years. It is raining constantly. Every single day. I've never, it's, I don't remember anything like this. We've had one nice day last week and everybody went outside. Yeah, like whatever. So that'd be my law. And yeah, I just need to see the sun again. I'm very concerned. A little bit, like I like a little bit of, it gives like cozy if you can stay home and like chill in the couch, but like we got jobs, like we got to get out and we have to go work and watch jobs and lives. Like two and a half weeks. I feel bad for people who have any kind of water issues. Like, this is, yeah, I was thinking the other day, I'm like, no, it's arc. I wouldn't have survived. Like I was just thinking about the 40 days. I'm like, I wouldn't, I would have been asking Jesus take me. So take me home. There is that. So high low buffalo. Great. Thanks so much for that. There it is. We got a good episode with Lisa today. Oh, this episode, Lisa Turkers, she is a woman filled with wisdom in this episode. You will sense it specifically if you have adult kids. So older teenagers, college kids, or after she just gives a whole bunch of nuggets. And then also marriage. And we talk about the difference between caring and controlling. And those are, there's a very fine line between those in your marriage, in your parenting, in friendships. It's like a lot of things work. Yeah, I feel like everything is like, am I caring? And often, I think a lot of times it does come from a caring heart, but we end up to be in controlling, which no one wants to be controlling. I think specifically kids and marriage. It's like, why, and so what is that difference? - I saw something that just hit home to me the other day, very much. So it was like a girl talking about marriage

and she was saying like, when your husband is driving and he takes away that you wouldn't take, just let him take that way. You don't have to be like, this way would have been way faster. Like I don't know why you're doing this, just let him do it. - Just let him go for it. - And I was like, oh my gosh, I literally do that every single time Sam drives. I am the worst backseat driver. - Really? - Yeah, every single time. Like where are you going? Like this is not how we get home. It's like, just let him do what he wants. Like why are you trying to kill this? - So Sam, you'll be very grateful for this episode. Feel free to share it with your wife and anybody else, but know genuinely. I know you guys are gonna love this episode, enjoy. So my oldest son just moved to Charlotte two weeks ago. - Wow. - And so we're like, we think of Charlotte often, any pro tips from a local of like restaurants or places to go, any tips on Charlotte that we should know about? - Yes, Charlotte has some amazing restaurants. So Crunkelton is one of my favorites, has amazing food. Momma's little Italy or Momma's Italian is fantastic. My kids could give you like a whole rundown of all the pocket shops.

They love print. They also love, I'm drawing a blank on some of those. But yes, if you need a list, just text me and then my kids will put that together for you. 'Cause I love that. I love it. He goes to a place called the bowl. - Yes. - He goes there. - Yes, my kids are there all the time. They love the bowl. - Oh, and then a long, long time family friend, they own a chain, Harriet's hamburgers. And so when we were there a couple of weeks back, I had to support them and so we stopped there. But yeah, just I had to start with that. Is there any like go-to places that are just beautiful? Is there anything that you would say? - Yeah, there's so many. I would say the Duke mansion with the gardens, that's a very, very beautiful place. The Met Museum is also a really cool place. You know, out where I live out in the country in Waksau, there's probably the best like park for kids that I've ever seen in my life. It is so amazing. Yeah, so there's a lot of beautiful places. - Yeah, thanks for letting me take your brain. He just started Elevation College. So he is there and he is flourishing.

He calls me every night just to gush about how excited he is. Lisa, you, when I think of you, I also think of just someone who is so good at speaking into felt needs and just the messiness of life. Is that a superpower of yours? What is that? Every time I see one of your titles, I'm like, oh my gosh, who does not need to hear about this? Like is that something, is that a superpower? - No, it's just evidence I have a lot of issues. (laughs) You know, 'cause I write about what I struggle with. And so I just, I think I'm good at paying attention to what my struggles are. And, you know, a felt need is always a problem someone's having or a question they're asking. And so before I ever write anything, I do a lot of listening. And I hear the way people express certain issues and problems and questions that they're having. And, yeah, so usually my books start right there with this struggle. And then I ask myself, like, who's addressing this well? And, you know, I like to address things from a therapeutic and a theological standpoint. - I love that. - So I think that helps bridge this gap between, you know, biblical advice and therapeutic advice. It kind of brings those worlds together,

which I'm really passionate about. And control just seemed like a pretty obvious one when I started digging around, like what is the source of this anxiety that I have? And, you know, why is it? I didn't deal with anxiety. There was a long stretch of my life where anxiety wasn't really a struggle for me. But I think just going through a lot of worst case scenarios brought the reality home that sometimes really bad things do happen. Sometimes people don't make wise choices and then you're deeply impacted. And so I think when you become hyper-aware and you've experienced worst cases, is attached to those, then it's only natural to want to try to prevent anything else from happening. And that's really the root of some of my, the motivation of some of my controlling tendencies. You know, it's not that I'm power hungry at all. Most people who struggle with control, they're hesitant to say it or they own it like they're the boss because they attribute like, I'm power hungry, therefore I have to control. In my experience, that's not everyone. Most of the time I see control sneaking into someone's life when they're very capable, highly responsible and extremely caring. And when those things are present in a person, those are great attributes,

but taken too far they could be controlling. - That's so good. I literally just, this last Tuesday morning, so literally 48 hours, whatever. Before leaving my bedroom, Becky was still in bed. I told her, I don't know why. I just have so much fear about the kids and their future. I have so much, I'm a, this is a weird word for a guy. I'm afraid of what might happen. We're pursuing really just exciting things at the church. I fear about what other people think. And to be clear, I'm in a wonderful season of life. Like it's probably the best season of life that I've ever been. But just in general, how do I find peace? And how do I make peace with what I can't control? Advice. - Yeah, I would, I'm a big fan of writing things down so that they're not just all jumbled up in my head. And so if I were you, I would write down your fears. Like, I'm afraid something will happen to one of my children, you know? I'm afraid we're going to try to grow the church and someone's going to get the wrong impression. And then ugly news stories are going to circulate about us that misline our intentions, you know? I'm afraid some of the key givers at our church will get tired of, you know, some decision that I've made and they're going to stop supporting the church financially and then where will we be?

You know? You know, it's like, I'm afraid. I'm blushing right now because you're reading some of my mail. I was literally, with my oldest kid, I was worried about him getting in a car accident in Charlotte and I'm not close by. And so what, like, and then literally, like the decisions of the church, you, you've afraid them. So, so write those, write those down. - Yeah, so put them down on paper in different cat, so like maybe have a section where you're talking about, you know, the fear that you haven't read around your son and then, you know, the stuff with the church, each certain circumstance or whatever. And then once you do that, ask yourself the question, what can I do about this today? Like, what is a wise decision that I can make today? What is, is there anything practical that I can do? Is there anything that the Lord's asking me to be obedient in that I haven't yet done regarding this specific category? And once you write out what you can do, then be responsible and be capable and be caring and do those things. But then also write down, but these, this is what I must learn to accept because it's out of my control. And usually it's around an outcome. Like, you can teach your son to drive safely. You can set him up in a very good car.

You can, you know, pray for him. And, you know, drive around Charlotte and show him potential danger spots or whatever you want to do. But at some point, you cannot be a bubble of protection around his car. And so then there are certain things that you have to accept. And that's the hardest part of this journaling exercise is to write down. And now, these are the things I must accept. Ultimately, I cannot protect them. Ultimately, I cannot prevent, you know, something traumatic from happening. And where we're trying to get in all of that is not doomsday and not parking our brain in worst case scenarios, right? But saying, and this is what I must release to the Lord, you know, right here, what I have to accept that I cannot control. I'm not just dropping my son off and hoping for the best. I'm not just sending him off of a cliff into Never Never Land, you know, but I am taking my son with the things I can't control. And I am walking him. loving, protective hands. And I have to trust God from there. - Can you explain for, what is that like so? You walk them over to the Lord, do you pray this? Do you, like what do you, what does that actually look like?

- Before we go any further, there are just some awesome partners who make life between Sundays possible. Adam, who are we at partners this week? - Yeah, partners as always are incredible. The first one is the International Justice Mission. IGM is a global nonprofit working to end slavery and violence around the world, taking care of specifically the most vulnerable of people, people experiencing poverty. I've been able to first hand see the work that IGM's doing in places like Kenya, and it is remarkable. If you're interested in becoming a freedom partner, a freedom partner is to someone who gives on a monthly basis to the work that IGM is doing. My wife and I have been freedom partners now for two and a half years, maybe even three years, go to IGM.org, you will not regret investing in the work that they're doing. Just truly going into the darkest, worst places imaginable and bringing the hope of Christ. Our second partner is Vernide Mitsubishi. Vernide is a growing, employee-owned, face-based company that strives to deliver dreams and transform lives, and they are just incredible. Honestly, I feel like the more I get to know them, the more I am impressed with them. So if you're looking for a vehicle of any kind, as we're getting closer to winter and South Dakota, and you're like, I need something, go through snow, talk to Vernide, go to Vernide.com.

No matter what kind of vehicle you're looking for, they're gonna have it. And no matter where you live, they're gonna ship it to you. Vernide.com, Vernide.com. - Yeah, it's whatever works for you, you know? I think what I was having a hard time with is because I am so responsible, I felt like if I don't continue to step in and try to fix things, and if I don't try to step in and try to control the play to get everybody and everything to steer in the direction of the outcome that I think is best, like if I don't do that, if I finally accept that there's certain parts of this I can't control, I felt like I was just saying like, I'm dropping this loved one off it. They don't make a better decision, I stopped trying to control them and things do fall apart. It's like I'm the one sending them off the cliff, but that was such a wrong mental picture. I'm not sending them off their cliff, that their choices may send them off the cliff, but what I'm doing is I am mentally walking them, not over the cliff, but I'm placing them in the Lord's hands. And look, this is a harsh reality of life. Like we truly can love people, we can serve people, we can even rescue them, you know, we can. - Yeah. - But can we save them, we cannot. And all our controlling efforts will ever get us

is more and more and more fear and anxiety. And the hard thing is control is so tricky because it appears for a little bit that it works. And that's the catch. But any effort that we accomplish through the means of controlling will always be temporary, it's not lasting. - Well, Lisa, I just want to highlight what you said there. Like if you try to control, all you do is become more and more anxious. And I think that's so good about like, you actually might get results for a short term, but just long term, it's like, do you want to become that? Like, do you want to be that? Can I ask like, have you had moments of controlling and how did you know that you were over controlling? - So. - Like, did you, is that something you've done where you've like, I've done this and this is what happened? - Yeah, a couple of examples of ways that this plays out for me. One, it's not that I want to do this. It's that I find myself doing it and then I have to recognize it and stop myself. But managing other people's emotions, you know, it's really hard because I even, I wrote in the book, sometimes I feel like I need to wear a t-shirt that says I am their pep rally. Like, you know, I don't want other people to have bad days.

I want other people to be happy. I want other people to be successful, you know? And so I find myself trying to manage their emotions by anticipating if I do this, then that will make them happy. I want them to be happy. So how can I make them happy? 'Cause I feel better when they're happy. And really, it sounds like, of course you want to make someone happy, but what I just described is codependency. so I can feel okay, so how can I make you okay, 'cause I wanna feel okay, okay? That's codependency. And so managing other people's emotions, that's one that I have to catch myself in. Another one is with adult children, and you might be able to relate to this, sometimes it's hard for me to see the choices that they make in their 20s and 30s, and it's not because my kids are bad, I have awesome kids. The problem is, is that I am applying 57-year-old wisdom, experience, understanding, and I'm applying it to their issues, but they don't have 57-year-old wisdom, you know? And how I got 57-year-old wisdom is I actually went through some crazy stuff, some really hard stuff. And so that's a real tension for me. I don't want my kids to go through hard stuff,

and yet I do want them to have wisdom, and often the pathway to wisdom is you allowing them to have their process with it. But here's what I've learned. - So good, so good. - Two crucial phrases right here. This will change your life when you're having conversations with your adult children. Are you ready for them? - I am taking notes as well. - Okay, the two phrases are this. Are you open to a thought? And the second phrase is, okay. So, are you open to a thought when you see your kids wrestling with something, or trying to make a decision, or they're heading a direction that concerns you, you can go to them, and you can say, are you open to a thought? And if they are, then you can share all of your wisdom, your concerns, cast a vision for the future, do all of that. But then you have to do it without strings attached. You have to do it without having this thought of how can I control this play? Or how can I manipulate the situation to make them do exactly what I want them to do? And so the second phrase is after they make their decision to say, okay, and let them be an adult. Even if you don't like the decision that they're making, and chances are that they will go through some hardship. Chances are they will experience some failures.

Chances are that they will have their eyes opened to the harsh realities of life, and it's gonna be excruciatingly painful for you as a parent. But that's exactly how you gained the strength and perseverance and endurance and wisdom that you have now at the age you have, is oftentimes that being comes by the trials we walk through. You know, the Bible makes it really clear, consider it for joy, my brothers, my sisters, when you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of a faith produces endurance and endurance or perseverance but finishes work so that you can be made to make sure complete not lacking anything. - That's so, so good. I, without sharing a ton, I think with one of my kids, I definitely tried to control, and all I did was push them away. - Yeah. - And so I like, I had an older brother, an older brother in Christ, just say, Adam, there's a difference between coaching and a consultant, and you're now in consultant season with your kids and consultants only speak when they're asked. - Who? - And I was like, holy crap. And so he's like, so you need to restore the relationship a little bit 'cause you've been the one. And now it's so cool because with this child, I feel like fully 100% back.

And now just zipping my mouth and shutting up, that's probably more direct. I'm being asked like, hey dad, what do you think? Hey dad, what do you think? Instead of being quick to offer, but so hard. You know, you just see them and you're just like, what are you doing? And but like just really, I just think those two things are so good. You basically answered my next question. I wanna ask this slightly different, specific wisdom in a relationship, like a marriage. What's the difference between caring and controlling? And what does it look like in a, you know, with a significant other or it's my wife, it's my husband? What's that? everything that affects them affects you in almost equal measure, you know? - Because you're doing life together, you're sharing finances together, you're fulfilling a calling together, you know? It's like there's so much shared stuff that when they make a poor decision, it impacts you. And so most of the time, it's not really that we have the motivation that I wanna control this person. In the book, I talk about certain motivation. So let's go over a couple of these 'cause I think they're gonna be helpful. - Yeah, it's so good.

- So there's variations of control that present itself and sometimes the motivation is because I want to prevent something from happening. So I control because I wanna stop what I fear may happen. And so, you know, preventing something is not bad but when we step over into control, even if our motivation is a good motivation, it's not always a great relationship function because it's not fun to constantly be micromanaged. It's not fun to have someone second-guessing everything that you do. It's not fun when you basically feel like your partner's telling you that you're not smart enough to handle this or you're not capable enough or whatever. Now on the flip side of that, you know, the partner needs to make sure that they aren't breaking trust constantly, you know, with their spouse, like, are you paying the bill that you said you were gonna pay? Are you taking the mail to the mailbox? Like you said, you were gonna do, you know? Are you remembering to take the garbage out? Or, you know, is that something that you always forget? And I always have to follow behind you. So, you know, the push and pull in a relationship is sometimes both people are contributing to it. They just don't realize what it is. One is breaking trust and the other's trying to control so that things stay going like they're supposed to go. So prevent is a big one.

Another protect, I control because something is happening that I wanna make sure it doesn't get worse, like, you know? And so it's, again, such a push and pull thing, but, you know, in preventing and protecting, those are not bad things. Those are actually great things to bring into a relationship. But when you refuse to let the other person stand on their own two feet, that's where the trouble, you know, can really happen. When you start micromanaging them or nagging them or, you know, instead of letting them do something, you feel like you're always able to do it better. So you step in and just do it, like, or follow behind them and, you know, wipe the counters after they just clean the kitchen, because you saw one crumb and you just can't bear to let it sit there, you know? I'm not saying I have any personal experience with this. - Oh, man. - Yeah, again, right now, I feel like you're getting way too close to home on this. I'm a little bit of a neat freak. What would you say to the person though that has had the trust broken? Like, big or small, like it, even like a middle of the road trust broken. - Yeah. - What do you do then? - So the solution isn't to control.

The solution is to repair the trust. And, you know, sometimes it just feels easier to step in and take control, rather than do the hard work to have the hard conversations and to put parameters in place so that the trust can be repaired, because every rip there needs to be a repair. Things don't just magically get better on their own. So, you know, the answer is not to step in and control. The answer really is to identify where the rips of trust have happened, and then step in and seek to repair those. And in a conversation, if you decide, hey, you know, I'm not really good at this task. And so that's why I keep dropping the ball. So is that something you can pick up? And then what can I take off of your plate to allow you the space to pick it up? Because maybe you really are better at that than I am. You know, but those kinds of conversations are so much healthier than one partner just giving up and the other partners stepping into control and clearing the weight of everything. Because one of the number one relationship killers is contempt. It's proven like where you just have had unattended to bitterness for so long that you actually develop contempt with your spouse. And a very quick way to have contempt in a relationship is for one person to throw up their hands and give up

and the other person to become a person. of wisdom. And I'm just so grateful. Like just even myself personally, the wisdom, you just have the wisdom of God in you. Is there anything that you've gained wisdom wise this past year? Like as totally away from anything that we've talked about, you can go anywhere you want. Is there anything just about the Lord, about life that you feel like you're learning right now? Whatever we repeatedly practice, we're going to get better at. So we need to watch what we're practicing. Yeah. And you know, if we practice, anxieties are go to response. If we practice giving in to all of our fears, if we practice controlling, we're going to get better at those things better and better and better. But anything we accomplish through controlling is the quickest pathway to chaos in our life. And if I really want peace in my life, then I have to practice what leads to peace. And you know, I'm learning, I'm learning that what I practice, I get better at, and I want to make sure I'm getting better at the right things. Lisa, just on behalf of everybody who reads your books, listens to you, crosses paths with you, just thanks for being the amazing person you are. And thanks for, thanks for leaning in to the messy parts of life and being willing to share good, bad, and otherwise in your story, because it connects with the good, bad, and otherwise in everyone else's. So endlessly great. Thank you all so much for joining today. Thanks to Adam. Thanks, Lisa, for the great conversation. And I hope there are some sort of takeaway that you can implement in your marriage, in your parenting style. What was your takeaway, Mr. Weber? Oh, I think, I think the part for me that was really, really challenging was the parenting thing. Being able to ask the question, like, are you open to a thought and being okay if the answer is no. But I think just putting that in their court, if you have adult kids, I think that's the takeaway. I wish, I only wish I could have listened to this episode three years ago, because it would have been profoundly helpful for me. For parenting wise? For me as a parent. Yeah. Yeah. I think it would have been really, really, really helpful for me. So that was definitely the takeaway. So maybe you're an adult kid and you need to lovingly send this over to your parents that literally, like, yeah, seriously, I, I actually wouldn't, I think it'd be appropriate. I'm just, hey, Lisa Turkers, mom, you love Lisa Turkers. My mom's getting this text in her today. Love you, mom. Love you, because I just think it's really, really helpful. And yeah, and you just, I think sometimes it's an awkward conversation of just like, hey, I'm an adult and I know how

to do this. And yes, I do want your input, but I don't like when you just randomly give me your advice. Yeah. And I'm 20. And then try to get, yeah, control what I'm doing. So that's the biggest takeaway. Thanks to our partners, International Justice Mission and Vernidey Mitsubishi, two amazing organizations. Last but not least is thanks for listening in. It's a huge honor every single time. Thanks guys. [Music]