Can You Lose Your Salvation?

"Did I read my Bible enough? "Did I spend enough time with God? "Half of the passages seemed to indicate it's your choice, "and then the other half of them seemed to indicate like, "'No, you have no choice, you are sealed, a done deal.'" How is it possible that there's an unforgivable sin? But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness. - So it's like God, from the beginning of time, had specific people in mind. But do we really have free will if He's also predestining us? - This is an eternal decision I made to follow Jesus. I just wanna make sure I didn't do something to mess it up. - So I grew up in a Christian home with pastors, okay? Grandpa was a pastor, dad was a pastor, and there's a question that I pretty much asked all the time, which was, how to do with my salvation, okay? I'd wake up most mornings as a kid and be like, am I still saved? Am I gonna go to heaven when I die? I even remember my geometry teacher saying that, sometimes getting salvation or accepting Jesus is just fire insurance. He just don't wanna go to hell. And I kept asking myself, like, is it, do I just have fire insurance? Or do I really believe? And so, plaguing in this question here is, around salvation, and my question is simple. Can I lose my salvation? - What did your dad say?

(laughing) - He said, "You know, he had some great answers, but I wanna hear your answers first, okay?" And if we need to break down, maybe we need to take, like, just a step back real quick about maybe just what salvation is. - That might be nice. - And then we can't get to that question to it. - Yeah. - So we'll start there. What is salvation? When we say that, what do we mean? - Getting saved. - What do you save from, though? - That's the question. - Adam, go. - Oh, great. Yeah, I mean, in the Bible, we're saved from the consequences of our own sin. Really, the consequences are our sin. So we're saved from our sin. And it's kind of like the unraveling of ourselves. And sin is just anything that misses the mark of what God has for us and His best for us. And the consequences of sin, according to Romans 6, is death. So because of sin, it always leads to death. And so that's just us being separated from God forever. And when we're saved from sin, then we get to be with God instead of being with our sin.

That's a simple way to describe salvation. - Yeah, it's like your hell bent, which is a great phrase for it. From the get-go, we're all about ourselves and so much of ourself has to do with just what we want our sin. So we're heading towards death and disease and decay where everything is headed toward breakdown. You know, it's just not a good picture. And so salvation is just a fancy word for being saved from that. When I was 12 years old, I decided to turn my life over to Jesus, you know? And I didn't even know what that meant. 'Cause I grew up in a household where like, you talked about God, yeah, and you never talked about the Holy Spirit. And like, if you talk about Jesus, it's like, okay, go easy. You know, like just enough. Even though where Jesus was like, oh, oh, hey, you saw people with like bumper stickers that said Jesus, you're like, oh, what a weirdo. So you revered or you honored Jesus, but you're just kind of like, we're not gonna go too far with it. And so when I was 12, I remember reading this book and it told me how I need to give my life to Jesus. And I remember some of my last thoughts and the last temptation of John before he became a Christian was like,

this is so Jesus freaky, it's weird, you know? Like, but if this is what the Bible says, then I'm gonna go ahead and do it. So on that day, my eternal destiny changed. So when we talk about salvation, I mean, I'm saved from going to hell when I die, but it's more than that. It's not just about some time there and them. And I think a salvation like my life changed that day too. And I was brought into the church. I was brought into a group of people who were also following Jesus that had have long talks with me about, you know, who I was and how some things had to change. I started learning from the Bible. Like, yeah, I can't do these things and still pursue Jesus. I can't be on the path to life and still be stuck on myself. And so it was like a process of change. And it's tough because when you're 12 years old, you're not really like a hardened axe murderer, you know what I mean? Like, what are you gonna say, you know? But I do know for a fact, I came from a family of very pushy people. And I was, I remember the arguments I get in fist fights. I get in fights with other kids because I was pushy. I was insistent on my way. I was very competitive. I always wanted to be like the best. I would shove other people out of the way. I would never, never be able to admit I was wrong.

Even the idea of like saying, I don't know, was like a curse word, you know, like I had to know. I would invent things to say I knew just to know. So being saved for me was, yeah, sure when I die someday, And Dan Knafke is going to sit down with you in college. And he's going to be like, John, we need to talk and I'm going to say, what? And he's going to say, you need to change some things in your life. Like you're pretty arrogant or at least you're coming across as being pretty arrogant because like you can never admit when you're wrong. And then I'm like, but John, when two people are looking at your life, you and someone else and that person loves you, trust that person. He's like, I love you, man. I want to see you more and more like Jesus. That's the saving process. You know, I was being saved. So I'm not that person. And I can't even imagine like if I became a Christian at like 30, how 18 years extra of just being myself, of wanting everything for myself, of pursuing, you know, a sinful lifestyle, how wrecked I would be, how messed up I would be. And I'm not perfect, obviously. But yeah, salvation is like a process that my life is being changed as I head toward the time in which I will encounter God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the new kingdoms and then the new earth. So what you're saying, those way more complex than what I think all of us have just expressed, we grew up experiencing. I see I do that all the time. That's my problem. Like I make things too difficult, but no, I'm saying like, um, like fire insurance is such a simple way to think about it. Mm, you know, like you get it.

And then when you get to heaven, you can show it to God. Almost like there's a barcode on your head and God's like, okay, he's good to go. Come on in. Yeah, insurance. Yeah, it's a ticket to heaven. You know, like I got my thing and I'm good to go. Wait, what is your premium? Yeah, but it's not like that. You know, that's that's not the Bible describes. I pull up some scriptures because there's like three parts to it. We have been saved. We are being saved and we will be saved. Yeah, which is seems contradictory, but it seems like. Can you just say it like this, though, like say you've saved, say you've not saved Ephesians two eight talks about it's by grace. We have been saved. Yeah, it's already already happened. Uh, first Corinthians one 18. It's in the present tense. We are being saved and then Romans 13 11. It says salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. Mm. So it's an event and it's a process. And that kind of blows our construct of what we think salvation is because it's two things at the same time. Yeah. Yeah, we're entering into a community of people that are trying to be more and more like Jesus, not just so that we can like, Oh, it's nice to be like him, but that's how you live. Like that's the way to life.

And when we die and we are raised to life in the new kingdom, like the new heavens and new earth, when God comes and infiltrates this whole world and sets up this whole new thing, we're going to be fit for that place because of how much we wanted to be like Jesus now. And so it's like we are working towards that. It's like we are being saved, being renewed every day. So it's more of a dynamic rather than like a static, like I got saved. It's like I'm being saved over and over again. Yeah. And so just to avoid confusion here too, because it again sounds almost like if I just wanted it, I've always just said, Hey, if I accept Jesus, that gift, that free gift, I'm saved. I'm saved on that spot on that moment. His work is already done, not because of anything that I've done, what he did. And so it gets confusing to save both, right? So I feel like is there another way, like is sanctification, like fancy word for saying the process of becoming more holy, more like God. Is that what we mean by being saved? Is that two different things? Yes, because like what you're saying is that someone can listen to this and be like, well, it's my effort. It's like, you know, as you guys said that, like it's actually not that clear. Like when you accept Jesus, you're kind of being saved, maybe not yet. Yeah. And so just to be clear, like I've always believed and we do believe, like, hey, you accept Jesus, you're safe, you're good. Yeah. But hey, there's something called sanctification, which means I'm not now perfect. Right. In fact, now what happens is a refining process to look more like God.

And to me, that's my understanding of that being saved, being morphed into his likeness. Good. Is that what you guys are saying? Or is that is that? Yeah, we're justified. We are made right with God by Jesus. That is a once and done thing. Yes. Now on the cross, when Jesus bled on that cross, that blood now attones for my sin. I have been made right with God. Nothing can snatch me out of God's hand. Boom. Right. And at the same time now, because I'm not perfect, even though I'm seen as justified by God, I'm made right with God by Jesus. I now want to become more and more like Jesus by my decisions, my actions. But none of that action determines whether or not I'm saved. It's all by the blood of Jesus. That's good. Because I could hear people's blood pressure rising. But now they're just wondering, like, am I safe or not? Does that sound like I can hear it? Yeah, hear the flow. So that's that's kind of salvation right there. What Jesus Jesus, what he did on the cross for us. because we took this kind of like long way around about it was because sometimes people were like, "Well, you know, I prayed a prayer." - Mm-hmm. - Yeah. - And so this answer is to that is say,

well, yeah, you can pray a prayer and you can treat it as a, oh, I found a list of things that I agree with and I checked all the boxes and signed on the bottom line, so I'm saved. - Yeah. - It's like, well, yeah, that's not really. It's all, everything that Jesus has done for us. That's what saves us. And then we wanna make good on that salvation by becoming more and more like Jesus. - Yeah, so maybe what's answered that second question then is how do I receive salvation? Like, so we know that Jesus, it's the finished work. It's what he did. Now, how do I, as someone who maybe haven't started following Jesus yet, like, what does that mean to receive the salvation? - Well, Romans 10 says, "If you confess with your mouth "and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior, "then you will be saved." So that's the simplest place in scripture to go to understand what salvation is and how to do it. That's not even a good way to describe it, but like, how to enter into that is by saying out loud and meaning it. Like, I believe Jesus is Lord and Savior, and then believing it in your heart, as you say it. And if you really believe that, then you will live like that's true.

And if he's your Lord and your Savior, that means you do things to please him. Lord is like, like the word in Greek is curious and it means like someone that you take your orders from, you know what I mean? Like, they're in charge of you now. My dad used to say, "The boss of your life." And you know, if it's your boss, you listen to them. Like, they write your paycheck. You got to do what your boss says. And it's like that too for Jesus. So it's not just lip service of like, yo, shout out to God, he saved me, I'm good. I can do whatever I want now. - He's doing the tips. - Instead, like, you got to live like that. He's your Lord now. - You know, and anything that there's confusion around the whole, what is faith in works? How does this plan to salvation? Because I think James talks about faith without works is dead. And so it almost feels like, is James saying that works important, like works saves you? - No, no. And see, that's where I go back to what I like is to just bring somebody into the whole story and say the entire story is that God loves us. He has this amazing plan for our lives. He has thought out like, okay,

this is the best possible thing I can think for you, right? But because we are naturally, as humans, we're bent on ourselves, we're bent on sin, we're bent on destruction, we've gone our own way. And so that union or that kind of relationship with God has been fractured, not totally irreparably gone, but there's a fracture in it. So we can't know, we can't experience God's love His plan for our lives. And so when Jesus came, so here's the fracture and you know, I always use like two, almost like these, these two maces, you know, big valley in between that one and that one, that big valley. I can't jump from that one to that one. There's no way I can get from there to there. And that's kind of how it is. And people are familiar with this, I'm sure, but maybe if you're hearing from this for the first time, it's just easy to visualize it. It's like, that's me, that's God, this is sin. And sin has opened up that valley. And so Jesus came to lay down in between that, you know, and to say, look, I'm gonna be that bridge between you and God. In fact, God's gonna come to you and by His grace and by His divine favor to offer you this opportunity to come and to say, like, look, I trust in Jesus, I believe in Jesus, but that whole idea of believing in Jesus, I believe that when He died on the cross from my sin, every sin I ever did, past, present, and future,

was put on Him and was canceled out, it was paid in full. I mean, however you wanna put it, it was dealt with. I was made right with God. There's nothing I can do, I can't jump from one to the other. But He made everything right so that I can in faith come across and believe and put my faith in Jesus. And it's not just enough to have those ideas, we need to, at some point, individually, as an act of the will, say, Jesus, I believe that you're there, I believe that you came and you died on the cross and when you died on the cross, that somehow, I don't even know how, but somehow all my sin went on you like a magnet and it got canceled out, got completely dealt with, destroyed, paid in full, however you wanna talk about it. But all my sin was dealt with and I was made right with God. So I accept that, I believe that. And now I want to be your follower. I wanna be your disciple, I wanna be like you. And so now I wanna begin this life of walking across, to be with God in my daily life. And so that's where the first part of it is, we were talking about it. That's where that kind of second part comes in is like, I wanna be like Jesus and this enables me to be like Jesus because now I have to power the Holy Spirit, who's able to give me power over sin, help me make good decisions, be that kind of voice in my head that says, no, no, stay away from this, stay away from that.

What saved me was that act on the cross. 2000 years ago, does that make sense? - Yep, it does. And so you got it kind of got that baseline set where salvation, right? What Jesus did on the cross, John 3 16, very popular verse, John 14, 6. It's all through Jesus. Then the peace is okay, if that's the truth, and I now choose to believe that, that Romans 10, 9 versus great, 'cause it's kind of two things. It's like confessing, not only with my mouth, but believing in my heart, that's a big piece of it is. This is like, this is not just fire insurance. Like, let me just go ahead and sign up for this just in case. This is a genuine decision to say I'm putting, I might not have everything figured out, but a genuine decision to make him Lord, to make him boss. I like that. So those things are in place, right? We've done that. We've done both those things. Now guys, can I lose it? Can I lose my salvation? - You? - Yeah. - Okay. - I wanna know if that's possible, if I can. - Yeah.

- You still gaming? (laughing) - Another episode reference right there? Oh, oh, still gaming. - So I think what's actually helped me with this a little bit, there's an analogy of a doctor that's helped me. I think sometimes we think salvation is like a vaccination. You know, you get a vaccine one time, you can no longer get chicken pox or whatever. And-- - Dude, you're a king of analogies, by the way. I'm loving this. - I'm trying. - Keep going. - And this one is from John Piper, actually. - Okay. - But like, we think that's how salvation is. Got the vaccine, good. I'm going straight to heaven. But instead of it being like that, it's more like a relationship with a doctor. This isn't perfect. But the idea is, if you stop going to the doctor, you get sick. You gotta stay in relationship with the doctor. That's the thing that keeps you healthy. It's your relationship to the doctor. It's like that with God. Our relationship to the Father, and our relationship to Jesus,

because of what he did, is what saves us. Not because we got a vaccine from him. It's not like he gave us something. Instead, it's our relationship to him, is that the thing that saves us. And so that's why it works matter. Our works are a representation of our relationship to the doctor. You know what I'm saying? And so I feel like salvation is conditional. Like it is conditioned on our works, but it's also certain. That sounds like a contradiction, I think, the first. - I know. - It sounds like contradiction. - Wait a second. - But let me explain. - I don't wanna hear it's conditional. - The conditions being the relationship you have to the doctor. Like the works that you are the proof. I think James even says that. Your works prove your salvation. They prove the faith that you have. And it's the necessary piece that shows that I am saved. - And I think what you're bringing up here, and it's okay if we talk about the spectrum of how we interpret, what does it mean to be saved? What does it mean to have salvation?

So traditionally, and there's probably lots of points along this spectrum, but I would probably say, and tell me if you agree with this. I would say hyper-Calvinism is on one side. Hyper-Calvinism has everything to do with God chooses who's in and who's out, and really, you have nothing to do about it. Okay, so on the one end of it, you got God solely determines who's in and who's out. You have no choice. On the other end of the spectrum, you've got Armenianism, but then this thing called free grace, which is like everybody gets all of it. Humans decide whether you're in or out. So on this side of it, God's the only one who chooses. On that side of it, on the other end of the spectrum, it's like you can choose whether you're in and out. So if you are truly a Christian on this side of it, there's no way you can walk away. There's no way you can lose it. And if you do decide to walk away from Jesus, you were never a Christian to begin with. So that's on this side. On the other side, you can decide to walk away at any time. And in fact, you have to continue all the way to the point in which you're, it's the word for it, he enters to the end is saved. You have to keep choosing the grace or not the grace. You have to keep choosing this relationship with God.

And along that spectrum, there's all kinds of interpretation. Does that make sense? - It does. I think the main conflict I have with talking about, hey, it's conditional, my relationship with someone, how close I am with someone, I mean, I don't know, let's just think about my marriage. And so at what point, like me being married to my wife, like is legally a thing, also before people like in our church, before God, all that. And so, but the relationship status within that marriage could fluctuate. There can be really good seasons and really bad seasons. There can be seasons where someone's married and they're living together, it's great and they're separated. They gotta be in different places. And so I think I've always pictured salvation as this idea of, hey, you're married, like you are, you are set. No matter how far I go, how far I run, how bad it looks, that marriage is intact, it is there, you can return to it at any point in time. And it's like, hey, like, we were never not in this. So that's where I struggle with the idea of, well, if it's conditional on this, I wake up, did I read my Bible enough? Best spend enough time with God? Because I'm thinking about the status of the relationship, is it enough?

Am I doing enough? So how do I free, if that line of thinking is true, how do I free myself from the fear? If am I doing enough, is this relationship right enough for me to be actually safe? - I think you gotta remember that like, your relationship with God is not like a human relationship. Your relationship with a perfect God who loves you. So there's nothing you can do to earn his lover's favor. And he didn't save you because of anything you did. He saved you because of his goodness. That's Ephesians 2, 8, and not like, it's by grace and through your faith. Not because of anything you did, so that no one can boast about it and be like, look how good of a Christian I am, look what I've done. The, I think the thing that I come back to is like, Jude 1, 24, and 25 talks about those who persevere to the end in their faith. And those are the ones who are saved. And then Hebrew, can we pull up, actually Hebrews 3, 14? I think this kind of gets at the same idea. Really, like this is sort of like the answer to like, well, how do we know that someone who grew up a Christian and then gave it up, like, was their faith true? Yes, for if we are faithful to the end, trusting God as firmly as when we first believe, we will share in all the blood, all that belongs to Christ.

And so it's like, you've got to live it out. If you, you said it one time, but you didn't live it out, you never really, you never really-- And see, this is why I brought up this spectrum. It's because you have these verses, but then you also have verses that are like, no one can take them out of my hand. You know, like, you can't even affect that relationship at all. So you've got this spectrum, again, between more hyper-Calvinistic, which is, and this was just a theologian named John Calvin, and some of them take him to a hyper-degree, and they're like, you have no choice. God saves you, and you are in regardless. And then on the other end of the spectrum, it's more like, you can choose any time to let go of it. In fact, you have to endure to the end to be saved. And then there's all kinds of spots along that spectrum where people have varying degrees based on these passages. Because these passages seem to indicate, half of the passages seem to indicate it's your choice, you can walk away anytime. And then the other half of them seem to indicate like, no, you have no choice. You are sealed, it's a done deal. There's no way you can walk away. Even if, like you talked about, being married, even if you wind up living with somebody else, you are still married according to that.

So it's tough, because it seems like passages on both sides of this, if you treat it like an it, like the relationship, then you've got conflicting ideas between the two. - And the passage you mentioned, just 'cause we're pulling these up to you, John 10, John 1028. And if you could actually pull that up as well, Tyler, I don't have it up right now. This is the one that says, hey, no one can snatch you. No one can take you out of God's hands. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me. - So this is all answering your question. You're like, can I lose it? And we're saying, on the one hand, no, you gotta stay to the end. And then on the other hand, it's like, no, they can't be snatched out, and so which is it? - Yeah, yeah. And are those two different things? I've also heard the difference between, could I lose it, meaning misplace it? I think you even said, fall out of my pocket? Like, is it like, oh, no, I thought I had it, it's gone, versus can I walk away from it? And so there seem to be two different ways to look at it, right? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, and this is where I would weigh in on this, and instead of us just saying, like,

what could be this, could be that? We wanna teach people how to think, not what to think. But I also wanna give my personal take on this, because my personal take, where I come to this one, I look at these verses, when we talk about, do you have it? It's not an it. You know, like, your relationship with God is not a thing. It's not a it, it's a relationship. The question isn't, do you have it? The question is, are you in it? And so in the Greek, it's increased to, you know, like, are you in Christ? And that's a whole lot different than do you have Christ. It's not like a coin in my pocket. - Right. - It's a relationship that I find myself in, what you were talking about earlier, when you were talking about your wife, you're talking about the difference between like union and communion. So you have the union of your marriage, but how is the communion going between the two of you? But they're totally different things. And so when I look at some of these passages, I think the warning passages that scripture gives us like in Hebrews, they aren't written to true believers about the danger of falling out of your relationship with God. They're written to religious insiders who are dangerously close without being genuinely transformed.

And so I think that the spit on this is like, that means the scariest spiritual condition isn't doubting your salvation. It's being completely confident of it with showing no evidence of it. That's scary. And I think that's where a lot of people are and don't realize it. - Yeah. So I think I'm trying to understand what you're saying there is that if I'm even thinking about that my relationship with God, wanting it. Like you there's been enough time, that do the right thing, oh, I keep screwing up. But it's they didn't know like, there's not really any fear that needs to be had there because it's not about our works. Like I am pursuing a relationship with Jesus and like, we're good, we're set. It seems like you're suggesting that there can almost be this like, you're almost falling for this trick or this lie. I don't know if it's a trick, but like that I actually never really understood it in the first place, that I'm checking boxes and I'm not really into like some kind of volitional commitment. Like, oh, I agree with those things. Oh, I'm a Christian. Yeah.

Instead of like saying, I choose to believe. So I mean, like the person terrified that they've lost their relationship with God almost certainly hasn't because of how they feel. But the person who never worries at all is what the New Testament shouting at. Saying, oh, wait a second, this isn't just a done deal for you. Like this is something you have to give yourself to. You are in Christ, you don't have Christ. - And that's kind of like the first half of Romans 10-9, right? Like I confess to the mouth that Jesus is Lord, say it all, am I believing in my heart, believing in my heart? - We believe in eternal security. Once you have been saved by God, you are saved by God. But it's not because there's no conditions. And what I mean by that is like, it's not like you, you know, on like Apple, you have to accept their terms and conditions. And if you don't, you might avoid the contract and then be null and void. - And never read those things. - You mean either, but it's not because there's no conditions. It's not like God saves you. And then he's like, and now you can do whatever you want. There is conditions. The conditions are, now you live a righteous life. You persevere to the end. But that's possible because God protects our faith.

Says in Hebrews that Jesus is interceding on behalf of us. - So the condition, just to make sure we're talking the same thing, the condition isn't, now these conditions are whether I save you. These conditions are about our relationship, the intimacy of our relationship. - Exactly right. - Yes. - Right. - We aren't the ones fulfilling the conditions. God is. - Right. - He's empowering us through the Holy Spirit to fulfill them physically. We do them. - Right. - But it's not because of our power. - Right. - Because of his. - Right. - But that matters because I think it takes the idea of like I got my free ticket to heaven off the table. That's not an option. - So put it, I'm sorry. - Yeah. - But I just want to hear what you're saying. Just make sure I'm getting what you're saying. Put it, Joe Schmo, who doesn't know anything about theology, doesn't really care that much about theology, knows they're a mess.

They've messed up with their life. And they come to the point where like, I need Jesus, take it from there. Like, how does that work then? Are you saying that they can just say, Jesus, I believe you. I just, I want to be saved. Amen. Is that enough? - Well, I think that's how it starts. This is the process of like we are saved, we're being saved, we will be saved. - Right. - That person has entered into a relationship with the doctor. They are being saved now. And then the process from that point forward is the continued sanctification of that individual. Not because of what they're gonna do, but because of what God will do for them. That's how I would understand it. - Which God would say, I will never leave you and forsake you. You are always mine. So as long as you genuinely give your life to Jesus, there can be times where you've given your life to Jesus, you're in process, and you go back to the drugs, or you go back to the guy, where you wind up doing things, you know are wrong, but you still have that nascent faith that is being slowly developed.

It might take years to come back to where you were, and now you're going a little bit up, and then you go down again, and you're traveling and becoming more like Jesus might be a lot more flat-lined than most, but you're saying that person is still saved. - Yeah, there's like a thing they call the perseverance of the saints. It's one of like Calvin's five points. If the perseverance of the saints is true, it's not because of what the saints do. It's because of God's grace on their behalf. Saying, because I saved you, I will not let you go astray. And not because of what they do, but because of what he does. - So it's less like, are you married? Are you still married? - It's more like, how's your marriage? - Correct. - Like, we assume you're married. How's it going? - Yeah, I like that. - And so, have we answered the question? - I don't know, do we answer it? - Well, I hear, and again, this is great hope to the person listening to this, saying, I'm that guy, I'm that girl. I don't know anything about Jesus. I've never been to church. I don't know what all this is about. What you're talking about with the gap

and all that, like, I'm resonating with that. I need Jesus. I choose to put my hope and my trust in Jesus to forgive me on my sin, 'cause I know I'm messed up. I can't guarantee I'm gonna change perfectly, but I choose to put my trust in you. That person, according to what I'm saying, and I'm seeing what you're saying, that person is saved. You know, they have put their trust in Jesus. They may, now that they're married, to use that analogy, they are now married to Jesus, they are in Christ. And because they're in Christ, there's a union. Now, what they do with that determines the shape of their communion, the state of their marriage. That marriage might be rocky, but it's still a marriage because God is sovereign and He's not going - So you're saying no. - I'm saying-- - It's my salvation. - I would say no. If you genuinely have decided to follow Jesus and you're still a messed up creature like we all are, 'cause I'm saying this half for myself. 'Cause I mean, there are times where I just do stuff and I'm like, why did I do that? You know? I'm married to God, you know? Like I'm in Christ and yet I still do these stupid things on the side, but I know he's not letting go of me, even though I make stupid decisions. - Yeah.

- One monkey wrench to add, first John 2.19, this comes right after the Antichrist passage from the head of that conversation. - Oh, let's do that. (laughing) - But it talks about how there were believers who were in among us, but they went out from us because they were not of us. - Right. - A lot of prepositions in there. But essentially the idea is like, they were never really true believers. - Right. - And so because of that, they left from amongst the believers. - Yes, yeah. And so I feel like that's where we could go next. So hearing what you're saying, John, I would say I agree with the fact that we were saying-- - Does it make you feel uneasy though? Even the way I put it? - No, I think you're clarifying. So the thing that I want to be rock solid, at least the way that I see it, what I believe, it's like, hey, can I lose my salvation? No, no, I can't. I think there's things to look at and say, hey, do I really understand this? Have I really truly put my faith in Jesus? I think I just sit more on that side.

I think that like-- - 'Cause that's what John says, 'cause they were never really of us. - Yes, right. And I think that's important, because I think there is the security of God saying, hey, no one can stat you from my hand. Romans 8, 28, like nothing can separate us from the love of God. They just, all these things about like nothing can take us away from that. And if it's a free gift and it's not about what we do, if I truly step into that, I like how you put it, that a union, then it's like you're in that union. - I do have to say this. Do you guys know Alex Kocman? - No. - Yes. - A friend of mine, Alex Kocman, there'll be some people in me listening to my evening. He's a great guy. He's written a few books. He's a real sharp guy. I always like running through my Calvinist stuff with him. So I was just talking about this episode and I was just sharing with him a couple of ideas and he gave me that idea. So I wanted to make sure that I credited him. And I'm assuming he's taken it from other people,

but he talked about the difference between union and communion. So I wanted to make sure I was giving him credit for that. But I do think that's a helpful thing. Even to throw in another example, I would say there's a difference between a person that's drowning and struggling to tread water. You know, that as long as you are struggling, some people think, "Well, I'm struggling, so I'm failing." No, struggling is evidence of life. Struggling is like, you're still trying to beat the things that are trying to pull you down. When you give up and sink, that's drowning. And so there's a big difference between the two of those. - Yeah. So that framework is really helpful that Alex gave to, of that union communion because it does paint the good picture. It's like, hey, we're gonna have moments. I think about the prodigal son. You know, it's like he ran from home. He came back and the father was like, oh my word, like you were always my son. Like what's the celebrate come? Like no matter how far you ran, like the communion of that relationship was rocky. He ran as far away as he could. Blue as inheritance came back. And the father's like, the union is still attacked. You're my son.

And so I think that's important to set up for our, and I know there are disagreements on this, but that's kind of like that. That's at least how I would frame it is saying like, I can't lose your salvation. The piece where it does get hard to navigate is, okay, I'll even just speak personally, like have a couple of friends. And I can think of one in particular that I grew up with in the church. Grew up with like leading worship and youth group. You know, you went to a Christian school and he went to another state to plant a church, to be a pastor and through this experience. - Did he go to Utah? - He did not go to Utah. He went to California to plant the church. And there's a lot to this story that I'm not gonna share here, but he walked away from his faith. And pretty formally, like pretty publicly, like shared something online. It was like essentially like, hey, like this is no longer what I believe. That's tough, because I'm sitting here saying, hey, you can't lose your salvation. You trust that in Jesus, you're good. So now I'm faced with the question, looking at my friend and he knows all this stuff. He studied theology and it's like, okay, okay.

So either you lost your salvation, like you really were saved and you chose to walk away, you lost your salvation. Or my buddy who I did Bible studies with watched him lead people to Jesus, did life with him was never actually a believer, never actually believed. - See again, though we're flipping into this, like material possession type of thing, lost your salvation, like you got a coin in your pocket, dropped out, or you tossed the coin away. But it's not an it, it's a relationship. So can you reframe it in terms of what we've been talking about, like the marriage, the union, whatever it is, is it possible for him to say, I no longer wanna be friends. - Can I divorce? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Because that would be the obvious next step in that analogy, right? Like, if I'm married and I divorce legally, And is that an option? So I think that's what you just come face to face with. And it's tough, it's really tough because it feels, it can feel convenient. It's like, I never really believed. And it can feel really insulting to someone who's like, "No, no, no, no, this was like very personal to me. "That's where I don't have a perfect answer for this "and wrestle through this because you're forced

"into one of those boxes of like, "Okay, either you walked away "'cause nothing can snatch you out of my hand, right?" God says that. And then the question is, yeah, but can I walk out of the hand? Like, are you just saying that no one could come get me? Or does that include me? Like, save you from yourself kind of thing? Like, no, no, no, not even yourself. - And I know it does seem like a total, you know, cop out to say, like, well, maybe it was never a Christian to begin with, but we really don't know the heart of somebody. And that there could have been something deep inside that was like a fracture line or something that's like, "Well, I haven't given myself fully to this. "If this were to happen, then I'm walking away "and maybe that happened and you walked away." So that is a possibility. But I think also we've got to extend there something that's sort of an unpopular idea is that maybe this is the time that this person's walking through a very, very deep valley and that God himself hasn't given up on him. And so even though he says, "I walk away from you," God's like, yeah, nice try. You know, that he's not giving up on this individual. - So I like that. And I also think it's important to talk through,

we kind of talked about being saved, salvation, and then also sanctification, right? Like that process of growing. What should our faith look like? And I think, John, I think you actually had some stuff on this that I thought was really good just talking about how should our faith evolve, right? Because think about it this way. If I'm, I think the first recorded moment of my salvation was when I was five years old. - Wow. - Now, I was in the car. - Before, do you have it on video or something? - My mom hasn't recorded in a handwritten, handwritten notebook somewhere. - And you didn't bring that in? - I didn't, I didn't ever ask for it because, because since then I walked away from my faith and I was seven. - Did you really? - I came back. - Are you serious? - Not formally, but-- - Not formally, wait, I'm gonna hear this story. - No, no, what I mean is, what I mean is-- - No, no, no, don't try to gloss over this. We're gonna hear this. - No, like, so five years old, you know, I sit on the bottom of my steps in Wisconsin, my older brother sitting next to me-- - You grew up in Wisconsin?

- He's seven years old. - Did you grew up in Wisconsin? - I grew up, actually, born in Virginia, lived in Wisconsin for a while. It's kind of confusing, banking depends on me. - It explains a lot. - But it's, so sitting at the bottom of the steps and my brother leads me to Jesus, he's like, hey. - Oh, nice. - You know, like, you wanna go to heaven? It seems kind of cool, and I'm like, my brother's five years old, a pretty cool guy. So it's just funny to me, 'cause-- - You're making my boots. - What's interesting is, okay, I'm five. What do I really understand about things? What's kind of wild, is my son right now is five. And driving in the car with him in September, he accepted Jesus. And I'm sitting there thinking, I know, when I was five. - You let him to graze in the car? - What the heck? - I tried-- - Was there a better spot to do this? - I tried to delay it. - Okay. - Because this is maybe my fault. Maybe this is my problem. Is he sort of asking questions about faith?

- He's driving in the rear view meeting. - Hey, you wanna go to heaven? Awesome, say this prayer. - No, no, no. - And we'll have two fries and some-- - I feel like I almost like was against the idea of really leading them to Christ until they were older, 'cause I was like, you're just too young. - Yeah. - He's the one grilling me with questions. - Right. - Which was a really cool God moment too. But he's just, he's asking like, well, how do I, can I go to heaven when I die with my best friend Remy? And I'm like, well, yeah, if you guys choose to trust and follow Jesus, how do I do that? - Right. - Well, you can, you know, hey, you could talk to him and tell him that you believe in it. What do I say? Well, you kind of say, well, can you tell me what the words are? And so we got, I was like, how am I gonna avoid that? But here's the thing, the point I'm trying to make here is he's five, and when I was five. But I know that I didn't really own my faith until I was 17 years old. - Yeah, take us back to seven years old

'cause how did you walk away at seven? - That, more of a joke, more of a joke. There's no real walk away from a seven. Just saying like, the joke I'm making here is that when you're young like that, it feels like you can kind of on a whim to say I'm into something. And then like, what am I really doing with it? What am I really? And then when I was 17 is when I, I would say that's really when I own my faith. So the question I have is, was I saved at five and I just, my faith evolved in a different way when I was 17 or 17 really when I decided to follow Jesus. In between there was a genuine acknowledgement of my faith, but it's almost like the stages grew. - Yeah. - And so how does that play into our salvation and should our like, is my five year old faith just meant to look different than my 17 year old faith, and this is where I would say really helpful. There's a researcher, his last name's Fowler. He comes up with a bunch of stages of faith. We don't have to get into all of them. And I kind of gives names to them to make them a little bit easier 'cause there's very specific scientific names that he gives to like when you're an infant, you have this kind of faith. I think when you're an infant, there's kind of like a blurry faith where

everything's kind of just symbols and ideas and feelings. And so, you know, you're, you're just identifying with whatever your parents identify with. When you're in your like early childhood, anywhere up to like 10 years old, it's much more literal. It becomes much more like rules based justice. Well, if this, then that. And so you kind of like, okay, so God did this. So then I can understand these things. You start abstracting principles a little bit. And then in your teenage years, everything's all about your friends, which, I mean, you remember that? You know, we're like, my friends know so much more than my parents. You know, you just have this very egocentric view of the world. And Timmy found a YouTube video. You're convincing. Mom, that's not true. Timmy, Timmy, Timmy, Timmy, Timmy found a YouTube video. You guys are so wrong. My dad used to tell me he, he'd be like, okay, so listen, as long as you know everything, why don't you just move out now? And you obviously know everything, so gain your fortune. And then I'd be like, dad, stop it. So that whole like middle adolescent phase, anywhere during 14 and 17, everything, you know, through your friends is super duper important. And then the next phase that he calls like the individually reflective, I just call the reckoning phase. And the reckoning phase really is you've gained powers of abstraction. You're able to understand symbols and their complexities. And some of the paradoxes now are starting to butt heads. And you start thinking through like, so how can there be a hell with a loving God? And what about this stuff in the Old Testament that seems very different than the New Testament?

And so you reckon with it and you have to deal with it. I'll just sort through it. And that's why a lot of people who come to faith, they still say like 12 to 14, 15 years old. That's when you become a Christian because everything's mediated through friends. And so that that's very important during that time. But also a lot of times when people walk away from the faith is during that like late teen into early young adult, early coupling, pair bonding type of stage where you run into college professors, you run into these questions from people who've had those college professors and you're really frustrated. So you're like, I don't know, I'm just going to put it all away somewhere. Because it's easier to just like either ignore it or say, I'm walking away from it. It's not mine rather than actually sort through it because the sorting is difficult. The next phase after that, the Fowler talks about, I mean, I have to get into too much, but it's more like a deep phase where you're able to appreciate some of the paradox. And you kind of come to terms with some of the reckoning phase. And then there's another phase on top of that and they said very few people get to. And this is like the selfless phase and this is like becoming like a Gandhi. You know, it's becoming like someone who's like, like a Jesus who is able to go to the cross. You know, and obviously Jesus wasn't human, but he's more than, more than human. He's God and man combined in this kind of serious way. But I guess the point is very few people get to that point where they're able to reconcile all these things and bring them into now I'm going to live this out and be completely selfless and abandon my own personal gain and in order to embrace this truth. So the point in all of that is I think we lack in our culture a good amount of qualifying words or concepts to give people the space to sort things out. And I want to talk about that in a second. There's like four different areas that people can really like sort through it. But also, I think you talked about five years old. You come, you come a Christian when you're five years old. And so at five years old, you're still between the line of that like blurry,

but also literal faith and you're kind of identifying everything with your parents. I'm sure, you know, the cross meant something to you. Bunnies, butterflies, like all those things are just like in a big, mushy mess. Easter baskets, yes. But the funny thing is, it's like in some ways that's the most sincere faith there is because you're just in it. You're like, no, I believe, you know, I remember I asked my daughter a long time, she was like five years old, we're eating ice cream. And I was like, so what do you want to be on your grub? She's like a princess. And she was just like totally like in it. Everything like you couldn't get any more true than that admission right then and there. But that would be kind of weird if I asked her that now, you know? If I was like at 20 years old, if I was like, so what do you want to be? A princess? I'd be like, okay. So what classes are you taking? What's your plan? Yeah, like those types of things. The thing is, I think we've got a lot of 20 year olds, 30 year olds, 40 year olds that still have five year old faith. And they never went through those stages. And Ericsson talks about this a lot. And I think there's really helpful language that talks about how you come to these stages. You live in these stages, but then you move from the blurry to literal or literal to the friend and identity phases. And so in this identity phase, you can either completely skip trying to figure out who you are and you kind of just keep doing circles. Or you can actually jump the barrier and figure out who you are. Go through the trauma of like trial.

And now you've, you've gone into this next level. Now you've, you've come to stasis again. You're kind of good. And we haven't done that with faith. We haven't given people who are five years old, five years old, to be able to say at 10, be like, Hey, it's, it's great that you have Jesus as your forever friend. What does that mean to you? Yeah. Well, it just means he's my forever friend. Right. That, that made sense at five years old, but now you're 10. And how do you reconcile this? And, and let's talk about what it means for you as you live out your faith now. And to actually have to jump that barrier and be like, okay, so now I'm a Jesus follower with all the, you know, the, the ideas that I have as a 10 year old. And then again, at 15 and again, at 20. Yeah, does that make sense? Yeah, it does. It, there's like, we, I don't know if it parallels perfectly with sanctification, but like that, that thought process that like, Hey, we talked about salvation and there's a way that you can receive that, be set, be secure in it, be good with that. But as you grow and you get older, you're going to have to wrestle through your faith. Yeah. In a way that actually produces a deeper relationship. And the same way again, like I keep using the marriage because it's just a great analogy. Like your marriage isn't going to get better if you don't wrestle through each phase of life that you need to. Right. Because I think, I'll just speak for my own experience. You, when if I grow up in a pastor's home, there's certain things that are kind of a done deal.

This is what we believe. This is what the Bible says. This is it. And honestly, I was afraid to step outside of that. Right. So there was a lot of like, that being rigid with like, okay, then I'm just going to go ahead and believe this and I'm going to ask questions. You're going to come up with the Bible says that I believe it and that settles it. Yes. Right. And I think if you're saying that line, there's something wrong. You know, I mean, because you're playing defense. Yes. And I heard and I don't want to like, I love like, man, my grandfather always say this phrase that I love in certain contexts. But he said, hey, the plain sense makes sense. Seek no other sense. Nice. And it sounds pretty cool. I like it in a lot of contexts. It's like, hey, we could overcomplicate this. Yeah. I don't want to mess with you, grandpa. But there's, but there's moments where I was like, but I don't, it just doesn't feel like plain sense to me as I look at the Bible and I said, I agree with the statement. If it, but like I'm looking at this passage, even that line though, like what, what he did, what you were, you were beginning to deconstruct some of what you formerly. Yes. I set that up. Yeah.

So like, cause that, that to me then in my twenties, I hit the whole deconstruction phase. Yeah. And it was. You should, everyone should. And I want, I think you're passionate about this. I want you to talk about it. Cause for me, that was a trigger word that was like a word. And so when, when deconstruction, you're not losing your salvation. Cause you're deconstructing deconstructing. I try to avoid that, that term as much as possible. Cause I was very, like, cause I in my mind, truly was like, I love, I love Jesus. I mean, I'm so, I love this journey. There's just stuff I feel like I need to figure out. And I, and I've always thought this, why do I believe this? Right. And so maybe speak to that because at least there was a season, maybe, I don't know if it's still true now, but deconstruction was almost felt like a taboo word. Like, oh, it's annoying now. This guy's, this guy's falling on one. It's like overused. Yeah. I, I think I prefer to use the word renovating. Same word about that. Yeah. When you renovate, what do you do? What's the first task of renovating? Got to knock those walls down. Yeah. Demo day.

Yeah. Yeah. So people talk about deconstructing and they're like, I'm deconstructed. Okay. I don't believe anymore. Great. I'm glad you don't believe your five year old face. What are you building in its place? Yeah. Because you can't just have nothing because having nothing is a statement. You know, it's kind of like, well, there is nothing. Is that really your statement? So renovating means we knock down the five year old face because it's not appropriate to have five year old faith as a 35 year old person. And if you're continually going back to the Bible says it, it was good enough for my parents. I'm going to believe it. I like your spirit, but that's not being able to really get through the weeds of like, okay. So what do I believe about this? What does the Holy Spirit mean to me? What does it mean that God says these people are going to go to hell? Like, how do I run into the equivalent of with the marriage analogy? It's like not it's like getting married and then not learning anything about your spouse ever and being like, well, I still got the ring on though. We're still married. It's kind of like that. Yeah. That's good. That always works for my wife. I'd be like, Hey, what else do you want?

I got this. So, so we're at now. We talked about, Hey, you know, talking about salvation. Can we lose it? And they say, no, you can't lose it. But how do we face these difficult questions with someone who seems to have walked away from their faith, which leads us to saying, Hey, you know, growing in kind of the phase of your faith is very important. Like, Hey, where I am right now, am I really understanding what I'm believing? So that relationship is forming, that relationship is growing. Um, so let's talk about another, another situation. Can we, can we keep going on? Yeah, I do think we only mentioned it's like we're saying, well, deconstruct. Yeah, yeah, yeah, expand upon it more. What is that I say? First of all, deconstruct is a phase of renovation. And we ought to be continually renovating. that's inadequate, does not need it anymore. So when I first became a Christian at 12 years old, I was still learning abstraction. They don't teach algebra to 10 year olds because you can't understand polynomials and symbols and abstracting type of things. You just don't have that ability. You don't have the ability to think of possibilities or possibilities or rotate things in your mind necessarily. So you gain that during your teenage years, in your early teens. And so I remember when it was told to me that I need to have Jesus Christ come and live inside of me.

And that was the language it was used. Which I mean, again, we're talking about in Christ. We wanna be in Christ. I totally believe that. But when I'm thinking in Christ, I'm thinking Jesus is going to live through me. And every day I wake up in the morning and I want Cheerios, but he wants corn flakes. So I'm gonna see him. He's gonna grab my corn flakes and he's gonna grab the, whatever I said that he wanted versus I wanted it. I can't remember my analogy. So I'm just gonna watch my hand do this, be like, oh, well, Jesus is overpowering me again. And I got scared about that. But see, that's where I was. That's where I was at 12, right? So I remember that being one of my big leaps of faith in order to put my trust in Jesus, because that held me back. I'm like, I don't want someone living inside of me telling me what I can and can't do. But then I remember another thought saying, but if the Bible says it, and this is God, then you ought to do it. And it was interesting how those two things warred against me before I became a Christian. And finally I said, if God says it, and I believe this, then I'm gonna do it. Even if I don't want this.

But I think it's important to know when it comes to deconstruction, I'm renovation all that. Really the goal is for that to be with the intent of deepening my understanding and relationship with God. I think there's always that other avenue where there's another passage it talks about. Don't be like blown whatever way the wind is going. Like, oh, here's a cool new idea. Let me just jump on that boat. - Is that James blown about on the sea? - Could we look that up? There's a verse that talks about like, don't be blown about on the sea. You're like, every new idea that pops up, like don't just be taken by that or blown back and forth. Let me see if we can get this pulled up before I keep going on that. Okay, we no longer be immature like children. We won't be tossed and blown about by every wind and new teaching. We won't be influenced by people trying to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth. So this is kind of just a little quick inject here is just saying, hey, yes, renovation is important, but that's what I like what you said. Doing it within your church. Doing it with trusted people because the extreme of that is like every cool new teaching pops up and it's like, oh, maybe I should put that somewhere

in my faith and it's like, no, no, make sure we're grounded in scripture in a community that's leading and guiding us towards that truth and helping catch things that feel like they're a little bit off. - Yeah, and I hear myself saying that as like a church guy and I'm like, my skeptical self is like, well, they're just gonna give me more of my echo chamber ideas. So, but I think that's, that's over skeptical. I think instead you might need to open your mind and think like, maybe there's someone at your church who already has wrestled with these things and they can relate to you. Like don't you want that? I want that. When I have doubts, like I want people who've already thought about these things, you can help me. - James one five says, if you need wisdom, ask our generous God and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking. But when you ask him, be sure that your faith is in God alone. Do not waver for a person with divided loyalty is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is blown and tossed by the wind. Such people should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. He's pretty like hardcore.

James is that guy that's kind of like, oh hello. Their loyalty is divided between God and the world and they are unstable and everything they do. - So, can move us to like another question here, but just so that that brief summary is, you know, yeah, it's challenging to think about someone. Hey, they raised up in the faith. They seem to have walked away. And what we're supplying is, hey, it could be a few things. Like it could be that they are still in the faith and they're just kind of in a season where they need to come back. Maybe they didn't really own the faith. There's kind of categories it could be in. It's hard to fully answer that 'cause we don't truly know someone's heart. So another thing that pops up in the Bible is just this one like really wild moment with Jesus that he talks about blaspheming the Holy Spirit. - Yeah, yeah. - Unforgivable sins. - This is kind of like-- - This is kind of like, he sees forgiveness. - Like the Bible's chock full of forgiveness and how is it possible that there's an unforgivable sin? - Can you bring up Mark the part in Mark where he says he never receives forgiveness? I think it's Mark two or three. And can you bring up the NAS? The NAS is a hardcore the way it lists it.

Yeah, go to 20. Came home, growled, gathered again. is going to Satan, he's divided, he cannot stand, but he's finished. But no one can in a strong man's house and plunder his property unless he first ties up the strong man, you will plunder his house. So he deals with that, but then he does this. Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven. The sons and daughters of men and whatever blasphemies they commit, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness. I mean, that's, that's the intensive there guilty of an eternal sin, eternal sin. And that's why again, if you want to really study like word for word, any ass will give you all the goods on this. And he says it's because they were saying he has an unclean spirit, particularly that he was possessed by beelzable. That's our core. Yeah. Yeah. So what's he saying? That's where I want to know. That's what I want to know. Adam, what's what's he saying here? Yeah, I mean, when you read the Bob, we got to read it in context. This same story is in Matthew 12 31 32, that area. And I feel like the reason Jesus is kind of coming at because this doesn't show up again. I don't think this is the only story that I know of that you have blessed me the Holy Spirit. What he's saying is you guys just saw me perform a miracle evidence that I'm God, evidence that I'm the Messiah. And then your response was instead of believing that we're going to say it was a demon. We're going to attribute God's work to the principalities and powers of darkness. And essentially saying what you're doing is you're taking a pot shot at the Holy Trinity, the Holy Spirit. Yeah. And if you're going to do that, then good luck being forgiven. I feel like I've always fumbled through this verse in a way because describing it can be a little bit difficult because you're saying, hey, like, all of our sins can be forgiven except for this. And what it seems to indicate too is, you know, some kind of ongoing sense of like, I am just so closed off to this unwilling to accept it, to believe in the Holy Spirit so much so that a miracle could be right in front of my eyes, and I would attribute it to something else that like, it's unforgivable because I'm not even open to being forgiven. I'm not even asking for forgiveness. So it's almost like it's unforgivable because I'm not even inviting it in. And so if someone's wondering, have I committed the unforgivable sin? I think someone's going to wonder that. What would you say to them? Like, if they're like, how would I know if I committed the unforgivable sin? Could I do it by accident?

I don't think it's a one off where it's like, I don't know if I believe in God and bam, you know, you're, I think it's probably something that's more deliberate and ongoing, kind of a way of life or a thought that translates into continual action. Would you agree with that, I don't think? Yeah, I think so. Although I don't know, I have to think more about this. I'm not even sure if it is possible for us to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I think it's possible for us to deny God and not receive salvation. But I think he was specifically talking to the Pharisees in that moment. He was saying, this is what, because I'm here, you just saw me do a miracle and you're still going to deny me and actually call it like a demon thing. That is a unique form of sin that I'm not sure is available to all of us. I don't know. I could be wrong about that. I like that though, because I mean, imagine, imagine being in that setting. You see him do this amazing miracle. Nobody can contest the fact that he just did a miracle. And they are so dead set against them, because it's obviously not just today. It's been a pattern. That's why they're there. They're there because he's done all these miracles. And his teaching is without any kind of equal. So everybody's like, surely there's something special about this guy. They're like, nah, this is Satan. So I think what you're saying is Jesus is like, man, you guys are so lost. This is what this leads to. You won't even listen. You won't even see what I'm doing. You're already dead set against it. And that's where you have become your own unforgiveness. Yeah. If you're worried and like, have I have I committed the sin? Could I have committed the sin? If you're wanting to follow Jesus, and you're even worried about this, you don't have to worry about this. Right. And this is not this is not the case. So people should worry. This is a non problem. The more you worry, the clearer you are. Start worrying. I mean, like you are not you are not committing this sin with your wanting to pursue and to follow Jesus. This is very clearly talking about some very ongoing, hardened, unrepentant heart that's like, I don't want forgiveness. I'm not even asking for it. Yeah. It's not like I'm asking for it. God's like, nope, it's like, no, these are hearts that are so turned against it that anything that's put before them could not convince them. Right. And that's just saying, Hey, God kind of gives you over to that, over to your sin, over to like that heart and heart. But it can feel it can feel tricky, because people are like, I don't want to accidentally fall into that. Yeah. So how about the reference to names being written in the book of life? I love the book of life. The book of life. And so if our names are written in the book of life,

and this opens up its own, I'm sure it's own debate, but do we have real any say in our salvation? Like we just kind of we're talking about both sides of our mouth. We said that we can accept it, but if our names are already written in the book of life, like, is that happening before be except Jesus or has that - Well, I mean, I think the title of the book of life just sounds so like, ooh, you know. But really all it was, any city back then, you had like the gate and then the gate you usually had judges or people that were there to enforce who's in and who's out. And you kind of had to pass by in the gate, the officials of that area. If you were from out of town, you had to check in with them. And if you were not part of the book of life and there was a book for each town of life that had names of all the residents in the town, you were marked in a sense, like, okay, so you got to leave by sunset. 'Cause otherwise you could be like spies or something like that. Now we're talking in like ancient Near East. So the book of life wasn't a magic book. It was just a record of all the people that lived in town. And if you're not the person that lived in that town, you were not found in the book of life. So you didn't have the rights and privileges of that town. So that's really where that whole idea of the book of life comes from. And it has to do more with like, have you registered with the owners? Have you registered with the people of this town?

And you could go through that process of becoming part of that town. That's a little more rigorous than just showing up. So it's not a magical book. You read it in the Bible, it feels like, I picture it like just some book that's glowing. And like before time began, God kind of decided to land before time thing comes in. There's little magic dinosaurs that are running around. It pops back into my head. So is that, the book of life is referencing a cultural thing and just saying like, hey, this is kind of like what you guys know. - Yeah, it's like the invitation list or the master list. - The RSVP list for a wedding or something like that. - Yeah, it's a good contemporary reference to something like that. But yeah, you're not on the list. The bouncer is like, sorry, you're not on the list. - And so are we, now there's also the kind of the back and forth and the Bible on what was predetermined? - Right, like it, what element of free will are we having in this? And then what does the Bible also seem to talk about us being? - Predestination. - Elect, predestined. That kind of seems to take out the free will. Like almost like, whatever idea doesn't really matter, God's already decided it. - I wanna hear what you have to say about this.

- Oh, brother. - I figure you're a good predestination person. - Oh, really? - Interesting. - I don't know. I mean, yeah, we could kind of-- - You good with algebra? - I wasn't very good at it actually now. - We better at geometry. - I hated geometry. I didn't even finish geometry. - Oh. - Don't tell my mom that. - How'd you do that? - Well, I was homeschooled that year that I took you, and then I started going to college and I was like, I'm done with the homeschool stuff, no more geometry. - That's awesome. - Yeah, so I just gave it up. Yeah, I mean, we can talk about predestination. Before we move on from the book of life, I think sometimes people are afraid they might get blotted out of the book of life, like their name's in there, but it's gonna get removed. In Revelation 3, it says that he won't blot anyone's name out of the book of life if they're in him. So you don't have to worry about that. It's kind of the same thing as the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. - Right.

- But yeah, the predestination thing is one of those like Christian liberties things. We talked about this earlier that you kind of like, you hold your hands like this 'cause the Bible seems to be saying two things and they seem contradictory, but yet we're saying like, you know, both can be true somehow. And that is that God chose and elected people. It says that in Ephesians repeatedly. Romans 8, this is 28, 29, somewhere in there, it says he predestined and called those, those he predestined he also called. So it's like God from the beginning of time had specific people in mind that he was planning to choose to enter his kingdom. So that seems like a problem because that means there's people that he's not choosing, but not necessarily because also at the same time we have free will that we get to choose our own on ourselves whether or not we want to accept Christ. But do we really have free will if he's also predestining us? Yes, somehow. One analogy that helped me with this, let's think about like a football game, like you record the Eagles game and then somewhat like John spoils it for you. And John says, oh yeah, the Eagles win 20 to 17. Big touchdown pass at the end, Jalen hurts. And then you're like, well, dang it, I wanted to watch it.

But then you go to watch it and you know what's going to happen at the end of the game. You know Jalen hurts is going to throw that touchdown pass. But does that mean that you predestined it? Like that you caused it to happen? No, you just knew that it was going to happen. And so it's possible that God can foreknow things but yet not cause them. When it comes to salvation, it seems that he does cause them. But yet it's our choice. I don't know how. So I still feel equally confused. Yeah, me too. (laughs) And I think this is just be real. This has kind of been a conversation for a very long time about which of these is true. And I think you said it Adam, like they both show up. You know, like you mentioned the verses. What's the, so Romans 8, 29, Tyler has this pulled up. For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son and those whom he predestined he also called and those whom he called he also justified. Those whom he justified he also glorified. So I mean that even the word predestined is in there. Like he decided in advance. And so at some, there. God's making this thing. He knows ahead of time. He's choosing ahead of time. But also, he wants all to be saved. Where's that first Timothy two, three, three, four? Can we pull that

verse up for Timothy two, three, three, four? It talks about that God wants all to be saved. And so, if God elect some, for somebody two, or somebody two, and then three, three, four, time was pulling that up for us. And so it says verse three, there it is. This is good and pleases God our Savior who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth. And so if that's true, which I believe it is, it's written right there, then it can't mean that there's people, he's like, I don't want them to be saved. I'm choosing them not to be saved. So I think that's where like what you're saying, Adam, is you hold up two truths at once, and it's like somehow he's choosing people, but he also wants all to be saved. Yeah, there's something called double predestination, which is that God's choosing some people to save, and he chooses other people to send away from himself. I don't believe in that. And I don't think the Bible teaches that because of the verse you should. It's that God wants all to be saved. There's some that he elects, but yet they also work with him by choosing him. And there's sort of a mystery baked into that, I think. I think where we maybe a little bit of a helpful additive to some of the talk about this, sometimes we conflate like theological predestination and philosophical. Oh, that's a really good point. Does that make sense? So philosophically, when we talk about predestination, we talk about God knowing things beforehand, and then willing things. And it's easy to say like, okay, so if I have this, you know, on the edge of a table, right, and let's say the cap's off, and it goes like this, and the water goes towards the end of the table, and I see it going towards the end of the table, and I quickly grab a napkin, and I go to the end of the table first, and I wait for the water to come to and then I stop it up. The two perspectives, and again, this is philosophically, so, and not to be all like, I think this is going to be helpful. So, from God's perspective, he sees where it's going, he anticipates where it's going to be, and cleans up the mess. From the perspective of the molecules of water, everything feels completely random. Like, we're all out of control, we're going over the edge, you know? Why would God let this happen? I can't believe what? And then all of a sudden, you see now he's going and he's stopping it up. He knew this was going to happen. How dare he put us through this? I can't believe that he wanted this to happen. Two different perspectives on the same event tell a world of difference, just because God knew that, or me, just because I knew the water was going to the end, didn't mean I wanted to go there. It just means I knew it would go there. And so, I was anticipating something to stop it up. And so, in now, if we have to make

the turn to more theological predestination, that becomes much more about covenant, that becomes much more about relationship. And I think sometimes we wrestle with the philosophical implications of predestination, and we layer them on to the theological. And so, we think like, well, why would God predesten some of these people and predest, when really, what we're talking about is his perspective, knowing what's about to happen, doesn't mean he forewills it. Does that make sense? So, when we're talking about predestination from a more covenantal or just even Romans, if you take this chain, sometimes it's called the golden chain, he foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified. And so, in Ephesians, he talks about chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. That relationship has more to do with kind of salvation history, like how God saw things happening. And not that he said, and I do know some double, I have a great story with something, some double predestinationists, people who are hyper-calvinists, let's say, we're at this young adult thing, and it was like late night, we do these late night theology sessions, and we're at the beach, and it's like 12-30 at night. Got a bunch of people just stacked in this room, because we talk about anything, you know, anything you want to bring up. So, but she young adults, between 18, 27 years old, sitting around, and this girl starts off, and she's like, well, I want to know, what do you think about predestination? And so, I'm thinking, I don't know why I was just thinking, like, oh, okay, we'll just like, wade into this a little bit. I didn't know she was like hyper-calvinist. When I say hyper-calvinist, she believes that God purposely makes some people for the fires of hell, knowing that they wouldn't respond in grace anyhow, so he's going to create them, and they're just going to spend eternity in hell. And so, I'm kind of outlining, you know, just the different views of it. I'm like, well, you got hyper-calvinists on this side, you got Armenians on this side, and maybe more like free Now, I'm sure you don't believe that God would create some people for the fire's health. He's like, "No, I totally believe that." And I'm like, "Right, right, right." She's like, "No, seriously." Like, that's all it makes. And she fires off like five scripture verses. And I was like, "Okay then."

Like, I didn't know how to answer that, you know what I mean? Because that seems to go against the very will of Jesus himself is like, "I'm willing that none should perish," you know? So I think, again, what we're talking about is the difference between philosophy and theology. And that in this, in Romans, when Paul's talking about this, just because he foreknows what certain people are gonna do or not do doesn't mean he's like, "Man, I want that to happen." And I think that's a key element of it. I don't think it solves everything. And in some ways, it's over simplification. I'm sure all the Calvinists out there are like, "He just murdered our position, which I'm okay with." Because no matter what you do, no one's gonna be happy enough with what you say anyhow. But the point being is that we gotta be careful that we're not getting so, and even now, we're getting way too philosophical about it. When, really, I think what it comes down to is like, God never wills anyone to be thrown into the lake of fire. You know, he doesn't want that to happen. - And that goes directly against what we just read first and first Timothy. He wants Paul to be saved. - Yeah, yeah. - And I think that, you know, as we kinda wrap this up in the core, the core question of this episode is, "Can I, hey, can I lose my salvation?"

And I think it's important to note, you know, it may be Adam asking this question. There's a lot, we just said a lot of philosophical stuff, a lot of like, how do we like understand it? And again, it's okay to explore that and to pull that out, but at some point, just almost on like just the emotional level of like, "I'm afraid, I'm afraid." Like this is an eternal decision I made to follow Jesus. I just wanna make sure I didn't do something to mess it up. And I'm not like, I didn't like fumble it. Or maybe, honestly, like I just made, when I made a huge mistake. And I feel like, I feel like it's unforgivable. I keep falling into this or that. And so Adam, as we kind of wrap it, what would you tell someone even like the heart of this question? Why someone's probably asking this? How would you just encourage them to approach this when they think about their faith? - Yeah, I mean, if you're hoping to tie up every loose end with your theology, then you'll always be wanting more. There's always gonna be loose ends. We just, we don't have all the answers, and that's kind of like part of what makes our faith, is that we trust God with things that we don't understand based on his character, based on how he's revealed himself to be. And that's actually good news, because we know we can trust God.

That's what he's revealed to us in scripture. And I go back to John 3 16. It says, "For God so loved you and everyone in the world, that he gave his only son so that no one would perish. And what did he give us? He gave us eternal life. He didn't give us temporary life, or life if we choose to be good enough. He said it was eternal life. That's what God gives. So I just keep going back to that when I doubt, and I wonder, God is a good father, and he gives good gifts to his kids, and the gift he gave us is eternal life that lasts forever. - Yeah, that's so good. And we also mentioned too, like there can be friends that fall off or that we struggle with wondering, I gotta figure out their status. Were they ever saved? Were they this? But we have to remember, like at the end of the day, we can never know someone's heart. I can't know your heart, Adam. As much as it seems obvious to me, I can't really know. And so at some point, we had to kind of focus on ourselves first, not a selfish way, but in a, this is the only, we have only have control over ourselves and the decision we make. And to say, hey, hey, God, I'm gonna trust in you. And we gotta believe his promises

that he says, hey, this gift is free. And so if I'm choosing to say I trust you, that you're good, you're set. Even like you said, some of the things that we might not be able to figure out along the way. And so yeah, take courage and knowing that we, your salvation is secure when you choose to trust and follow Jesus. - What else is, if he can bring up Mark chapter five, Mark chapter five, Jesus just, he's in the, he's just dealt with the demoniac. He goes across to the other side, 'cause everybody, he dealt with the demoniac. Everybody on that island, that area, they're like, get out of here. You know, like we, you're freaking us out. So he goes over to the other side, a guy named Jairus comes up and says, "Hey, my little daughter's sick, can you come make her well?" And the course of him going to her is his house to heal the daughter. There is a woman who comes up and she gets healed. And in the course of being healed, I think it's around 35. Yep. Your daughter has died, why bother to teach her any further? But Jesus overhearing what has been spoken said to the senior official, "Do not be afraid, only believe."

And that has saved me so many times that here's Jesus. Jairus comes up and says, "Hey, my little daughter's at the point of death. "Please, can we lay her hands on her?" So soon he may be well again. He goes, "Okay." This goes off with her. who's had a hemorrhage for 12 years. He says, "Go in peace, daughter, "your faith has healed you. "You've been healed of your affliction." Soon as that happens, they come and they say, "Don't bother this guy anymore, your daughter's dead." And now they had to come a certain amount away. So it's been a while, you know? And he looks at him and says, "Don't be afraid. "Only believe which I love that very short, "compacted thing." And he says it again in Matthew 9, with a demoniac, don't be afraid, only believe. And it's not even like believe in this. It's not even specific, it's just believe, like I'm here. So for me, it's someone to say, like, "I'm scared. "You know, I'm scared that I have this, "I'm scared that I have that." Like, don't be afraid, only believe. And it's as obtuse as that, you know, like, John, that doesn't give me any-- I know it doesn't give me any specifics,

that's what I love about it. It's just like, what am I putting my faith in? Like, put your faith in me, like, I'm here, it's okay. That's always, that's always given me lots of comfort whenever I have fears that I can't put my finger on or I don't know what the answer is for. Okay, I'm just gonna walk with you on this. And there's something beautiful about, even in the midst of that, you might think like, "Well, I don't like this relationship 'cause I'm scared, "but I guess I got a trust." That's, I would say 90% of our walk with Jesus is, "I'm scared, I don't know what to do. "I'm just gonna keep walking. "I'm just gonna keep putting one foot in front of the other." I just believe it's good, so good. Well, thank you guys for your thoughts on this and helping people walk through it. Is this real? Like, are these actual places-- There's two rivers that are real rivers, it's between the Tigris and the Euphrates. Sodom and Gomorrah, you find a settlement that didn't just burn, it melted. Have we found Noah's Ark? This is a rock from Jericho. So I had my hand on the wall and so immediately I just went, and I put it in my pocket. That's from like, 3,500 years ago. This is a huge discovery because it shows

that the scripture was basically maintained on with 100% over 1200 years, which is miraculous. If this all really happened, it just got to be evidence. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]