5 Communication Styles with Jason Van Ruler

Hey, crew, it's Adam. I'm a husband, a father, a pastor, a follower of Jesus who, just like you, is trying to learn what it looks like to fully live and follow Jesus in the middle of real life. It is one thing to be someone on Sundays, but what about Monday through Saturday? And so here, we're gonna talk about faith and making a difference in the messy, ordinary moments where it's often the hardest to live out. Some weeks, I'll share what God is teaching me. Other weeks, I'll sit down with leaders, pastors, athletes, friends, there's no fluff, just encouragement and truth for your life between Sundays. I'm so glad you're here. Well, hey, crew, welcome back to Life Between Sundays. It is Adam and Emily joining you here in these very masculine-looking leather wooden chairs. We are so excited that you're listening, so excited that you turned this on. This is episode 343. Blown away by that. Every single time. Every single time. I can't believe it. I cannot believe it. Hi, Low Buffalo. Today, what do you got for us? Today, I'm gonna give a shout-out to my friend. It's my friend group.

So my high is just having great friends that I can reach out to when things are awesome, but also when things are hard. So it's been, just the last couple of weeks have been just kind of an overwhelming couple of weeks. All good stuff, but just have been overwhelming. And on Sunday, I texted a group of my guy friends and just said, hey, I am struggling, and I'm just wondering if you can pray for me. And so I've been blown away by how great of friends I have. It's pretty cool. I always tell people it's fun to be with someone on their best day, but on their worst day or a hard day, that's the true honor. So that would be my high. My buffalo is, shout-out, Jason Van Ruler's new book just released, go get that. Yes, this episode is like perfect time, actually. Unbelievable, Jason. So go get his book. And then another book just released this week as well, John Acuff's new book on procrastination. I texted him yesterday and just said, hey, congrats on your new book. Your last book changed my life. All it takes is a goal. Go get that. I was just talking to Waltner about that book. Oh, I love that book so much. And I just told him I have no doubt

that this book's gonna change lives as well. So that'd be my buffalo, those two books. Do you think you struggle with procrastination or not? I don't. I usually don't. I took the, so there's an exam that you can take to find out what you are. I'm a hustler. I'm shocked. Shocked by that. So I'm a hustler and kind of what the growth area is for me is to make sure that I'm running in the right direction. Basically to stop and like pause to make sure you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. And I'm like, that is timely. That is spot on. That is me. I am a- Just pull your head out of the weeds, look around and make sure. Just make sure you're going in the right direction. So I'm a hustler. Oh, good. Good, good, good. Jason VanRoehler on today. Give us a little backstory about Jason. I know you guys have been friends for a while. How did you even become friends with him? I became friends because I just started referring people to him.

Before you knew him? I don't know why I started referring people to him. I think I heard about him. This is like over a decade for sure. I just heard about him and I'm like, oh, he seems pretty cool. And he didn't have a big Instagram following. He wasn't traveling the country speaking. So, but I just, we grabbed coffee one time and I'm like, you're awesome. And I was blown away by his insight, his wisdom, his experience. He's just got a lot of experience in therapy. And then his, I mean, he's just taken off. He's speaking at Chick-fil-A, he's speaking at this, speaking at that. I mean, he speaks all over the country. He's traveling this week about his new book. But the thing that I love about Jason is his love for Jesus. I love his humility. I love how he gets closer. Like as one of his friends, he was one of the guys that I texted this weekend and asked him to pray for me. So I just, I love him, respect him so much. He works with some of like the most well-known people in our country, but then he also works with people that no one wants to work with. And he loves them just as if they're

the most important person. So it's pretty cool. So Jason's awesome. Yeah, and he has a book coming out. The book is about communication types, discovering your communication type. You guys talked a little bit about your communication type. Yeah, I'm a spark. Sparky. Is what I mean. I'm a spark and I'm married to what I believe is a thinker. Did she take the, did Becky take that? She needs to though, because we need to diagnose this to find out. Oh geez. And you are a? I got, I kind of like tied with the spark and the peacemaker. Whoa. Yeah, the one, the spark is like, you try to make it a little bit more fun and lighthearted, right? You definitely do. And then peacemaker is like, I don't really want conflict. I kind of just want everything to like be fine and not really have to deal with anything. You kind of are blushing even as you talk. Okay. Thank you for that. I can see that look on your face.

You're like, yeah, let's not, let's not be upset with each other. Let's just be fine. Please. Anytime, anytime that we haven't even a remotely serious conversation, you do. Yeah. We're just moving on after that. And then Sam is. I don't know what he is. Pigeonhole him. Like just guess. Um, he'd probably be a peacemaker. Also, he does not like conflict. Well, I don't know what Harbor is really. Yeah. I don't really know that either, but Jason's going to tell us about it. It's in the episode. Yes. Yeah. Jason conflict. You guys must do conflict really well. Well, just no one addresses it until it becomes a really big problem. And then, and then it just kind of spirals up. Very healthy, Mary. Don't take marriage advice for me. Peacemakers like feeling all kinds of upset feelings, but we're great. No, he's more of a peacemaker than me. I, I will. If it's him, I'm like, we got to fix it. So we talk about that, that kind of that personality profile thing. We'll have a link in the show notes.

I mentioned that as well, but you should go check that out. Yeah. I'm excited to hear this episode and hear all that Jason has to offer. Encourages you and connects with you and, uh, hope you find out more about yourself. So discovering your communication type. Yeah. We wanted to make a very abstract name. And it's perfect. The five paths to a deeper, to deeper connections and stronger relationships. I'm just going to start there. So the five paths, communication types, uh, first off, what are they? And why does it matter? Let's start, let's start there. And then I'm going to have you dissect mine. Cause I have mine here. So let's start there. What are they? So, uh, it's the why behind our communication. So when you think about like right now, you and I, we could choose any words we want to connect, communicate, talk about anything we wanted, really. So why, why do we communicate about the things we're communicating about? It's going to be some rhythm to that or reason or some sort of pattern. So after sitting with tons of people, I started to notice a few kind of like, Hey, I think there's this pattern. And where it really stood out to me was like, when I do a retreat, we'd try to teach someone empathy. Okay. And empathy is a tricky one, but we'd say like, well, here's a script and you read this script and they're going to feel like you're empathetic, you know? And so the husband would like stand up and he'd be sweating and he'd read the

script. And like for some husbands, man, it landed perfect. Like they would read it and their spouse would be like, Oh, I feel that. Yeah. And then other guys would read literally the same thing. And their spouse are like, no, I don't think so. And I'm just like, it's the same script. What's the deal. But, but the thing is, is like, we all have this why behind why we communicate. And so if it's not in alignment with that, it doesn't land. Yeah. And so that was really the book is like, how can I help us see ourselves better and then see others better to actually connect? Cause I think a lot of disconnect and conflict is like, because we're not speaking the same type and we don't know that we're not speaking the same type. Yeah. So really nuts and bolts quick. So I, I went in online and did it. So if someone wants to find out their communication type, they should. Yeah. Do the free assessment. Where's that at? You can find on my website or Jason, vr.com backslash paths. Okay. And we will have a link in the show. So do that. How long will that take someone? It's 25 questions. So a couple of minutes, not too long. So for me, my top, I took the test.

My top one is spark. Right. And then my second top one is advocate. Okay. Um, so a, I feel like you're gonna, I feel like, uh, we're going to sit down to a crystal ball right now. This is so good. What does that, what does that mean about me? Like, help me understand me. Yeah. Well, let me tell you the types. Maybe I'll just break them all down. That's perfect. Yeah. So I always preface it with there's, there's no one that's like better than the others, there's no bad one except for all the ones I'm not, but, um, but no, there's no bad one. There's just opportunities. So it's P A T H S right. So it's an acronym. So, uh, and really each one is named about the outcome that person's hoping for in communication. Right. So we have, you know, how we're wired from a personality standpoint, and then our communication is a separate thing. And usually communication, uh, formed in our childhood as a response to what was needed. Okay. So if you think about, you know, for me growing up, uh, you know, Midwestern in, you know, a CRC home, uh, we didn't talk about feelings a lot, Adam.

That was, that was almost never like, Hey, you want to have supper? How are you feeling today? Let's talk about your emotions. And so, uh, what I learned as a kid is like, Oh, somebody should say that. Someone should talk about feelings here. And so I kind of learned like, Oh, that's what the system needed. Yeah. So a lot of these are really just responses to what was needed. So, uh, the P is the peacemaker. And it's really obvious but peacemakers there want there to be peace. Yeah, and so when we are talking now I'm gonna be reading what you're saying I'm gonna be looking at your facial expressions and hearing your words and I mean try to eliminate the rough spots And if I think it's maybe gonna go in a direction that's not peaceful. I'm gonna quickly sidetrack it, right? You might start to say, oh, let's not go there. Let's go here because where I want to get at The end is that hey, this is peaceful Okay, the opportunity for them is that there can't always be peace There are hard conversations you have to have. Yeah, the a is the advocate Okay, and the advocate cares a lot about what's fair and right and just okay, they're moral people And so when they're talking it's really important for them that it resonates deeply in the sense that that was that was fair And that was moral They are great friends. And the reason is that if you're in a room and you're like is somebody gonna say something The advocates gonna say something. Yeah. Yeah, they're gonna speak up for the other person or do the right thing their opportunity for growth is Not every fight is theirs So they they don't have to write all the world's wrongs. They don't have to make sure everything's moral That's not always their job because sometimes your job is to let other people step into that. Yeah The T is the thinker and just kind of how it sounds they they want to be precise So as they're talking they're looking for is this accurate is it factual is it logical? Did I get it right? Okay, and they're worried that they're gonna say, you know, Adam 43% of people and then you're gonna go I think it's actually 39% That's like their deepest fear, right? Is it? Oh, man. I blew that. Well, I was inaccurate

Oh, I messed that up So the thing about a thinker that they can kind of look into is not every situation requires that level of precision Yeah, sometimes you can just be okay with it you can just go I don't know this is around the ballpark Okay, the next one is the harbor and harbor is the best. I mean, so I said there wasn't a best one Harbor is the best one. Okay. I'm a harbor right and and so harbors want to talk about feelings That's that's like that's our deal right is I want to talk about my feelings. I will talk about your feelings and And I just love that space. You're a great you'd be a great therapist But here's the thing about harbors man and you I laugh because you've seen this firsthand We make terrible dinner party guests, right? Cuz cuz everyone's like did that guy just walk away from you crying and I'm like, well, that's not my fault That's I didn't do that You're like, what did you say to that guy Jason? Like I was asking about his mother and his deepest fears and all these things and feel like you don't have to do that You could you could just talk about the weather like everybody else So harbors have to like not always go so deep so fast all the time because like not every situation warrants that yeah Yeah, it's great. But not every situation. I love that about you. Yeah, you make an awesome dinner partner. Oh, thank you. Thank you It's great. I'm asking all the questions. The the S is the spark. Okay, okay Sparks bring the energy to the room, right? They can they can work a room. They can work an audience They can get people they sound horrible. They're terrible They're great. They're they're phenomenal. They bring a lot of energy and momentum, which is super needed. I mean, that's really important. They're charismatic Yeah, their opportunity for growth is to lean into the messy stuff sometimes so sometimes sparks get so used to running so fast that if you're like Hey, I've got a problem or this is uncomfortable or awkward. They're like Mmm, I don't know if I want to slow down and deal with that yeah, and so they sometimes will just run past it and and so a spark at their worst is like I just want energy bringing things and conversation and none of the rest. I Will say I mean it's interesting for you because that's not you I mean, I I think you're actually really good at digging in But I think you could tell me maybe you've had to practice that because I think yeah for sparks That's not always a natural thing. Yeah. No, that would be definitely true of me

Would avoid it for at all costs Until I kind of had to deal with it, honestly, yeah Yeah, that that'd probably be true of me and it's been since having to deal with it that I'm willing to share it with others Yeah, and willing to process it said otherwise, I don't want I'd rather just like let's just go towards the goal Like let's just do what we want to accomplish. Yeah, let's not talk about should be that easy, right? Oh, you don't have to slow down and do all this other stuff. Yeah, so maybe so any anything that you would say About me. So again, like I'm a spark next one is an advocate What any other like good or not? So great things about that and you can feel free to literally So good feel free to ask or say anything is this podcast Adam let's go back to your childhood Is there anything that you would say like strengths of that weaknesses about Yeah, I mean, so here's a really cool thing, and this is especially true for you, is a lot of people, they have a communication type, they're primary, they're secondary, and they build a life around it. So what I want to say to you is like, your pastor, your speaker, your podcaster, like, I imagine all those things are assets. Yeah. Right? Imagine if you didn't have that, or imagine if you skewed a different way. So it's like, it's a beautiful thing that I think God gives us kind of this typology, and then we find ourself in a position that really utilizes it. Yep. And so I would say like, Oh, man, this is awesome. You're in the right seat. I think the challenge is just the challenge everybody has is, is can you slow down sometimes? Yeah. And can you lean into the other types that maybe feel a bit uncomfortable? Yeah. Yeah. So you, you, so knowing, so you're a harbor, Jodi, can I ask what, what she is?

You're gonna love this. Yeah. So she's a thinker, like all the way. So that's great. Knowing, knowing that, like what, why is this, why is it helpful? Not just for ourselves, but for our relationships to know this. Yeah. So, I mean, I think like the hallmark of a good communicator, you know, yourself, you're self aware of how it lands. Hallmark of a great communicator is, you know, how other people experience you and how it lands for them and you understand them. So in relationship, I mean, I think it's kind of God's sense of humor, like I'm a feelings guy and I married a thinker. And so for years I would get an idea or I'd have an experience or, you know, you and I would talk about something and I'd be like, man, I am so jazzed about this. Let me tell you all about how I feel. Yeah. Okay. And I'd spend, I don't know how long, probably hours or something. Not really that long. But I would say like, here's how I feel. I'm so excited. It's going to be great. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'd tell Jodi and she'd go, well, like, hit me with the facts here. Okay. So how does this line up? Is that accurate? How would that actually work? If you're going to take that trip, what would that cost?

What are the details? Let me look at the flights. Let me. And historically, and if I'm being really honest and vulnerable about it, I'd get really upset. Yeah. Because I'd be like, man, this feels so good. I'm talking about my feelings. Can't you just talk about your feelings? Yeah. And she'd go, I kind of have to talk about how I think about this though, because if it doesn't make sense to me, we're kind of stalled. Yeah. And so for a long time, I interpreted that as her being against me, not for me. But what was actually true, she just communicates differently. Yeah. And so in all the words that she would choose to use, they'd just be different than mine. Yeah. And mine aren't better and hers aren't worse. But until I kind of said, oh, like, that's just how she communicates. So if I really want to talk to her about this, I got to probably speak to that first and then do my thing or at least acknowledge her piece. It kind of like change everything. I mean, we still catch ourselves, but we used to have conflict about that. And now it's just like, oh, it's that thing again. It's annoying, but I get it. Yep. Yep. How like, so anything more like a way. So I take the pass.

I find out that I'm a spark. How any other advice on how to continue learning more about you to be the good communicator first? Is there any other tips that you'd have for that Jason of like, I feel like I am just scraping the surface of who I am and how I'm perceived, which has just been, I mean, the last eight years, I feel like I've done a lot of hard work in figuring that. Any other tips to kind of learn the parts of me that I can't see anything else there that you would say? You have to ask people. So that's the really hard part is you have to find some people who will tell you the truth. Yeah. There's some great research Tasha Eurek did. And she asked people, you know, do you think you're self aware? And it's a 95% of people said, of course, I'm very self aware. Yeah. What do you mean? Yeah. I mean, I want to ask her because this moment must have been so awesome for her, but she's like, I'm going to give you an assessment. It's going to tell us if you are or not. And so she hands out this assessment and people take it and they come to find 95% of people thought they were 10 to 15% actually are okay. And that's me too. I mean, literally, as I'm writing the book, I'm like, Oh, man, I think I'm writing that for me. Like, I don't, I'm telling others, but I need to listen to this. And so one of the ways we learn how it lands for other people is we ask other people. Yeah. Yeah.

And sometimes that's a new skill for us because we aren't comfortable asking for feedback. Yeah. Or we're not comfortable giving feedback. Sometimes people are asking and we just kind of clam up and we're like, Oh, I don't really want to tell them the truth. But the truth about good communication is like, it's a joint opportunity for growth. Do you think like, I'm trying to even get even more specific than that. Do you think like reading, like Beck and I should read this book together and just say, Hey, so I'm a spark. How do you see me live that out or not live that out? Yeah. How does it come out? Yeah. Yeah. And where is it great? And where is it a challenge? Yeah. he would say, oh man, Jason's a therapist. Like that's pretty awesome, he's a harbor. Cool, you know, but I'm bad at doing taxes, right? Because if we're gonna talk about budgets and spreadsheets. He's in prison, he's in prison because he hasn't paid taxes. I'm like, it's good enough, it's close enough. Leaving all kinds of people to help in the prison system. It doesn't really matter, this is how I feel about it. You know, so it's like, well where do you see that come out? And then where do we make a shift? And then also, as parents, how does this come out? Yeah.

Because what you see is even in your parenting, like if my kids want to talk to me about feelings, I'm all ears. Yeah. We can do that for hours, right? But some of the other stuff I'm not as good at. It's just good. It's just not about, like we have to be great at everything, but I think we have to acknowledge where we're short and then notice when it comes out. Before we go any further, there are just some awesome partners that make life between- Amazing partners. Amazing partners that make life between Sundays possible. Adam, who are our amazing partners. Yeah, our first partner is Vernity Mitsubishi. Vernity is a growing, employee-owned, faith-based company that strives to deliver dreams and transform lives. And their goal is excellence in everything that they do. I talk constantly about Vernity. They just came up again yesterday. I'm like, I talk often about them and it's because I just value them so much. If you are looking for a vehicle, an Acura, a Mitsubishi, a Ford, a Honda, a GMC, they're gonna have it. If you're looking for a tractor, they're gonna have it. If you're looking for a boat this year with summer coming up, they sell boats. I can't wait to get on a boat this summer.

Four wheelers, ATVs. I mean, literally they have it, they have it, they have it. So no matter what kind of vehicle you're looking for, and no matter where you live, if you live near Sioux Falls, obviously just go to a store here locally. But even if you live across the country, they will ship a vehicle to you. And what I always tell people is the impact that is happening through Vernity is what's so cool. Yes, they're a business that sells vehicles, but the amount that they give back to the community here locally is absolutely inspiring. So go visit vernity.com, get a vehicle. Our second partner is International Justice Mission. IJM is a global nonprofit working to end slavery and violence around the world. Not just in South Dakota, around the world, which is insane. They focus on the most vulnerable of people, which is people experiencing poverty. They go into some of the deepest, darkest, cruelest places on the planet, and they bring the full force of the law, rescuing people out of these horrible situations. And so I just wanna invite you, go visit IJM.org. Consider becoming a Freedom Partner. Freedom Partners is someone who gives to the work of IJM on a monthly basis. My wife and I have been Freedom Partners now for years. Every time I see that money, leave our account and go to IJM.

I'm just so proud of the investment that we get to make, and that we get to be as part of the work that they're doing. So go to IJM.org. That is our partners for today. What would you be, so with Becky, I could obviously have her do the pathways. Like if I have a team, though, or if I don't know someone's, how do I begin to learn that? A way, like do I just, literally just like, hey Jason, can you answer this one question for me? I've got a few questions for you. Okay, I've got another question. We've done it in a few minutes, yeah. Any advice on how to get a read on like, what another person is, if it wouldn't be awkward, if it would be awkward to have them do the pathways. Any advice on that one? We'll make it awkward, but I mean, here's what's interesting, and I mean, and I would say this, and obviously I wrote it, but people will tell you over and over again. If you literally just listen to people, they will tell you. Because how people decide to speak about things tells you what's inside of that. Yeah. I mean, if you play this episode back, I've talked about feelings several times.

Yes. Right? I mean, so if you're listening, it's like people will telegraph that to you. And once you know that, it's something where you go, okay, that matters to them. So like, even when I'm speaking, what I've been doing since I wrote the book is like, I incorporate each of the paths. Because I go, hey, I'm gonna be trying to connect with an audience, and there's gonna be different people in the room. And so some of the people, while I'm waxing poetic about how I feel, are gonna be going, hey, is there like any research, or what are the stats about that? And so if I'm gonna be a good communicator, it means speaking to them too. Yeah, yeah. And kind of knowing where it lands best. You know, I have spoken at accounting conferences, and if you can imagine, the feeling schtick didn't go so hot. Right? It was kind of an empty, quiet room. But that's on me. So I mean, kind of the beauty of this is like, you just gotta learn how to do it differently. And I think, from a faith perspective, Jesus was amazing at this.

Yeah, yeah. Like, this is not the new under the sun. This is, I mean, I look at Jesus, and I just go like, nailed it. Yeah. Did all of it. Yeah. So we have good representation. of how to do it well, if we look. What would be, so something I'm constantly trying to figure out is how to be a better leader with the team that I'm entrusted with. Any hacks or advice on how to be a stronger communicator, not on a stage on Sunday morning, but one-on-ones and leading six people, any advice that you'd have on that? Like, I just feel like I, I'm like, I've been doing this for 20 years and yet I still feel like a rookie in a lot of ways. And I'll just know like, gosh, that did not land at all and wanting to grow. Any advice that way, Jason, specifically at work? Yeah, I mean, I think if you feel it didn't land, ask why it didn't or if you're right. You know, so you might say like, hey, it doesn't seem like this is resonating. What's going on? Or did I miss something? I think the other thing is sometimes you have to let people in on your thought process a little bit.

Cause you kind of do this preparation thing and then we show up and then we don't show our work and people are kind of left to fill in some blanks. And so one of the things that I see about, you know, regardless if it's a team or a couple or anybody else, like conflict really thrives when there's a lack of clarity. And so then you get into that kind of fun thing where you're like, we're disconnected. I don't even know why, but here's what I make up. And the other person makes this up. And so the common sense thing is like, why don't you guys just talk about that? You know? And so I think leading with clarity is really important for a leader is that everyone should be clear on what you think, what you expect. And if they have questions, they should be willing to ask. And then you should cater to the kind of understanding everybody's different. Yeah. So if I want a thinker to really get on board with something I'm gonna talk about, I'm gonna probably lead with facts. Yeah. Because if I try to sell them the feelings, they're gonna go, wait, wait, wait, that doesn't really resonate with me. So what about this part? Mainly just like do your homework a little bit.

It should be intentional. Yeah. You know, when you think about this, this is kind of, I mean, communication, unfortunately, is sort of a lost art at this point. Yeah. Because we have a lot of technology that makes it so we don't have to. Yeah. You know, and so what we wanna, I mean, strategically, the kind of why behind the book is like, I believe better relationships can change the world and bring us to our faith. And so it's like, that is a really important thing, but you have to practice. Yep. And so feedback on the book's been really funny because people have said, well, do I just read the book and then like, I'm good? Like, no, sorry. Yeah. You have to practice to be good at it. Yeah. And the practice is where all the good stuff is. Any habits that you would say like daily habits to be a better communicator? Is there anything like two or three simple habits or things that we could be doing on a daily basis to be better communicators? Yeah.

I mean, talking to people's first, right? So I mean, use your phone, call somebody, you know, actually have conversations. I think what I try to do is I try to lean into people with different perspectives than I have and just try to learn everything I can. Yep. So like, I might go into it and go, I don't think I believe half of what they believe. Yeah. I wanna learn from them. Or boy, they're really a strong advocate. And so they're gonna talk to me about what's moral and just and that's not me, but I wanna learn from them. I think sometimes where I see people get in trouble is they try to stack their team or their life with just people like them. And while, I mean, there's some convenience to that. Yep. It doesn't make us better. Yeah. And so I think if you wanna get really good, you have to practice and you have to go where you aren't good. Well, that's really, that's super solid. Is there anything communications wise that you've learned through the process of writing this? Like, is there anything that like either you learned or you're like, gosh, I've learned since even finishing that you would share?

Yeah. I mean, I learned a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are so many- And you're such a good communicator. Well, thank you. Like you just are one-on-one in front of 300 people. I mean, Jason, you're the best of the best. Yeah. Is there anything that you- Well, I feel that way, but thank you. Well, it's true. It's true. I feel like you, specifically with feelings, you just can read people so well. It's kind of my thing. It's kind of my thing. But I think outside of that, here's the thing that I kind of learned is, I think my position makes it easy for me to think I've got it. Yeah. And I think a lot of people, even if you're a leader or you're a parent, it's like, oh, you know, I kind of got it figured out. I kind of know how it works and I know how it lands. But what's really true is you probably don't. Yeah. You have a version that probably serves

what you want to believe, right? So I want to believe, well, I'm a therapist and therefore I really understand people's feelings and I'm great at it. Yeah. Not always. Yeah. And so I think what I learned in this book, in something that I even saw with parental estrangement, where, because the second half of the book is. How do I use all of this to have hard conversations? And so what I saw with parental estrangement is a lot of times that stems from parents who are like, I think I did it well enough. Yeah, yeah, I think I did it well enough. In the minute, we start to kind of say that we're in trouble because we probably didn't. That's good. Okay, so for the remainder of time, I just have a few leadership questions. You're just someone I respect so much. Your pace right now is fast. You're on a trillion podcast speaking all over. Yeah, everywhere. Things you've learned how to be healthy in a fast paced season. Any advice for that? And I'm selfishly asking right now myself. Anything that comes to mind, though, if you got to fill the tank? Yeah, I have not been good at that. That is not is not been something that I'm good at. But But I think if you don't fill the tank somehow, then what you're giving people, you can kind of tell yourself that you're running fast, and it's a value add. But it's not because you're kind of given what you don't have. And and so I think the hard thing for me to learn is that people won't stop you, you have to stop you. And and so

it's like you can do all the interviews that you want that you're asked for. And people keep asking, and only you know the quality of what you're giving. And so if you aren't refilling that there's just not quality. Yeah. And that's hard. And so I've been getting up at old man times like 430 in the morning to work out. Because I need that. And because it helps me show up in the other places. I haven't historically done that. Yeah. And so what I know to be true for me is that if I don't do some stuff like that, I'm actually not really giving a whole lot. Yeah, yeah. Do you and you'll you'll see? Well, do you think there will be an end to the sprint season for you? Maybe? I mean, here's the other thing I've learned about myself. I like to sprint. Yeah, when I go to the gym, I sprint every day. I love to sprint. Yeah. So I'm kind of built to sprint. And and I think for a long time, I was I felt bad about that. Like I wasn't supposed to like that. Yeah. So I think part of running fast is knowing if you're built for it or not. And accepting that. Yeah. I think I'm built to run fast. And I like it. Yeah, I think my risk is doing it all the time and calling it a lifestyle. That's not healthy. And I committed to having a family and kids. And they're not sprinters. Yeah. And so if I'm sprinting, and they're jogging, we have a problem. And so I think for me, it's been okay, I know who I am. Yeah, I accept that. And I also need to take other people into consideration when I look at this. So what is the solution to that? Yeah, because that that would be true of my family as well. I'm a sprinter. Beck is not and my kids are not for the most part. So what do we what do we do with that gap? Yeah, given what they need first, then you do your thing.

Yeah, yeah. And so for me, what that changes look like is, you know, like I would come home from work and we'd eat supper. And then usually I go down to our basement where I've got a desk set up and I would sprint I would work I do my thing. But now what I try to do, because that doesn't serve them, it serves me. Yes. Okay, so I'm great when I'm doing that. But I'm actually abandoning them. Yep. And so what I do now is I stay upstairs till they're bored. And you know, that feeling when your kids are like, this has been good, Dad. Like, hey, we love you. But like, kind of looking at the phone, right. And so instead of letting me choose, I let them choose. That's good. And then you sprint. Yeah, then I go, I know what I'm gonna do now. And I know how to do that. Well. Yeah. But if I'm honest, the discomfort for me is waiting till they get bored. Yeah, trying to be present in that moment. I love that. But they need it. That's good. What are you seeing? And just to get specific, because we could talk about whatever. What are you seeing currently when you're meeting with high charging leaders our age? Is there a common thread that you're seeing? And then what is the solution to what you're seeing? Yeah. Because you're meeting with what I love about you, Jason, is you are, you're meeting with people every single day. So you're doing these interviews, but you're also sitting face to face with people like us, and hearing problems and hearing situations. Is there a common theme that right now that you would say you're hearing from men our age? Yeah, I, I think most people, I think what I'm experiencing is, everybody wants to be successful, but nobody knows why. And and so I sit down with somebody, and they want to be

successful, as we all do, you know, they want to have the status and the income and all the things which who doesn't? Because that would be true of you. And of course, of course, but nobody really knows why. And when you really dig down with the why that they usually tell themselves, it's not true. So What would be an example of what? So usually the why is because if I do it, then that means something about me. So if I do it, and I have it, then now I can kind of check a box that I'm okay. And as long as you need to check the box to be okay, you'll never have it. You'll just never have it. You'll probably have a lot of success. I mean, because it actually, it works for you. It's a great motivator. It's a driver, yeah. If it didn't work, no one would do it. So I mean, it works, but what it ends up leading to is regret. Yeah. And so the real why for a lot of people is I need to be successful to know I'm okay, and I don't know how to not be successful and be okay. And so when you figure that part out, which, you know, obviously we're faith people. We know where our worth comes from. When you're willing to receive that, success hits different.

Yeah. And what's interesting is most people fear that if I'm okay with me, I won't want to be successful. I mean, that's like, I hear that over and over again. Oh, 100%. Oh yeah, but if I didn't really need to do it, then would I be successful? No, you'd just be successful with intention and meaning. Like it would just be better and lasting. Yeah. But as long as it's to make you okay, it's shallow. Yeah. Can I ask an honest question? Yeah. Where are you at in that journey? Got it all figured out. Mastered. Got the whole thing down. It's been so easy for me. Oh my gosh. So where are you at on that journey and what, has there been something, is there been anything that's helped you get to a healthier place in that? And again, this is one of the reasons I love you and I refer all my close friends to you and it's why I tell everyone about you. It's because you're on the journey yourself. Yeah. And when I meet with you, even as a friend over Starbucks,

I never feel like, gosh, Jason's got it all figured out. You're like, no, you're on the journey too. Is there, if you're willing to share, where are you on that journey and be maybe what's been helpful to see some victory in that area? Yeah, totally been on the journey. And I mean, the funny thing is like, we often talk about and write about what we experienced ourselves. You know, it's like, you can be an expert on what you just went through. I don't think I have it all figured out. I think for the longest time, I thought performance equaled worth. And I would have said, oh no, no, no, it's not really like that. It's totally like that, it's totally like that. But increasingly, the people who love me best don't need that. And so I had to kind of reconcile like, how is it the people in my house who love me the most don't care if I ever write a book? How is it that they don't care if we have money or, I mean, they want to eat and stuff, but they don't really care the amount or they don't care if I'm on stage. Like they don't care about any of that. And so how do I live in a world where I say I'm doing what matters,

but the people who matter most don't think so? Oh, that's hard. And so to be just really transparent, I mean, for me, my kids are getting older, my son's looking at college, and I had a moment kind of this last fall where I realized everything I traded in pursuit of the thing nobody needed for me. Yeah. And it was a lot. Yeah. It was a lot of missed nights, it was a lot of travel, it was a lot of things I did saying that it was serving this greater good. And I think I have helped people, but the people at home are like, I don't get it. Yeah. I don't get it. And so what I've really tried to do is like listen to the people who love me. That's great. And if they don't need it, maybe I don't either. Yeah. And I think for me also is receive the gift God's given to me as simple as it is. Yeah.

Because I like life on hard mode. So I'm like, it couldn't be that easy. I'm just loved. Yeah. Can we complicate that? That's how I've lived is let's overthink it, let's be a little neurotic about it, let's do some math equations or receive it. Yeah. Not easy, but simple. Man, that's the good stuff right there. Oh, it's so true. I was delighted to connect with you, not because of this book and not because of your Instagram following or whatever else. It's because like I love the person that you are and the friend you are and just everything you are. And it's so interesting how we often chase all this stuff. And it's like, what are you really doing it for? And even a pastor doesn't know, it's like tries to overcomplicate our identity in Christ and God's love. Maybe final question, is there anything like whether it's connected to the book or just life in general, as far as anything you're learning about God, has there been anything that's just like struck you

in your relationship with him lately or anything like that? Yeah, you can just kind of share. Yeah. And that's a really good question. This is the part. Part of you that I feel like I have a front row seat to, that I just love as well. And so that's where this question's coming from. It's a good question. It's a good question. And you and I have talked about this a little bit. I feel like I need God more than I ever have, even though it looks like I don't. And so for me, there has been such a beauty and so much healing in me saying, I just need you, Lord. And every time shows up. And I just think I've tried so long to do it on my own that there's this grace and beauty in just saying, I actually don't have it. I don't have it at all. I'm going to do my best. I'm going to try to steward stuff. And I'll try to make good choices, but I don't have any of this. And so if I do any of this well, I get out of the way, and I listen, and I try to honor what I think is true. And that's changed my life. And so it's interesting, because I'll read in the morning, and I send you books.

I'm reading all these books and learning. I just can't get enough of it. And I just think, for me, that's how I want to live. And the more I do it, the more I want to do it. That's so good. Jason, I feel like even for me lately, my time with God in the mornings, I'm just like, Lord, I don't know what I'd do without you. You're so good at it. You're consistent. Well, it's because I'm so needy for him. And I feel like I'm probably sprinting the hardest I ever, maybe ever have in my life right now. And so that makes my time with him even more necessary. In the past, I would have skimped that, because it's like, I'm so busy, I don't have time for this. It's like a negotiable. Yes, and now it's like, no, I'm so busy, I need even more time. And so I found myself just opening up scripture. Right now I'm reading Ecclesiastes, which will kick our achieving butt, you know, by the way, I'm like, it's all meaningless, like get rid of all of it. But so I'm reading through that. And then I'm just like, I've just been sitting and really in stillness trying to put my phone completely so far away from my arm that even the addict in me can't grab it.

And it just like, Lord, I'm just, and it's my favorite place to be. And it's like, now I can go through the day because I had the daily bread with God and he sustains me and that changes everything. Yeah, yeah, I think that, I mean, that's the thing I've learned is I think success actually looks more like surrender than we think. And that's a good place to be. Well, thank you guys so much again for just joining us, listening in. It was so fun having Jason here in the office too. Just whenever you have an in-person interview, I'm like, oh, it just brings a little life. Oh, it's so good. Life to the studio. Specifically when he's such a close friend, go figure out your communication style. I need to have my wife back do this as well and talk about it as a married couple. Or if you have a team, I'd really encourage you, if you have people that you report to or people or vice versa, have them fill this out and then talk about it. I think it's so critical to find out more about. Do you think it would be helpful knowing like your coworkers communication type probably? Yes, yes, I mean, for sure. Do you think you could point out like the people in the office, like you're this, you're that?

I think to some degree I could, but I think it's better to have them actually say it and explain it themselves. And even to share like, hey, where does this resonate with you? And where does it not resonate with you? I think that's always helpful too. Like, where do you agree with it? And where do you disagree with it? I think it's super helpful. And I think just like overarching the communication is just something that everybody needs to work on like all the time. All the time. Well, even like, so as a spark, I get really excited about something and I'm almost like Travis Waltner, who's worked my first full-time hire. He'll often say, I feel guilty that I don't get as excited with you. And then he's like, and Adam, sometimes I like, I just feel really bad trying to match your excitement, but I'm not. I don't understand. And so like, instead of that, which is weird. I like, I would hate that for anybody to feel that way to try to speak their communication style. Specifically, if I'm trying to have a conversation with them or convince them of something or whatever, I think it can be really, really helpful to know that.

And also just helpful for your marriage of, you know, for years I tried to fix Becky. Yeah. And I'm just like. This helps understand them a little bit more. Yeah, like you're not, they're not trying to be a stick in the mud. They're just how they see the world and how they communicate is totally different. So I think it's gonna be so helpful. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So thanks for listening in. Thanks to our partners, Vernity Mitsubishi, the International Justice Mission. These episodes would legitimately not happen without them. So please go support the work they do. It's awesome. That's all we know. That's all we know for today. Have an awesome rest of your day and be blessed. Thanks guys. Thanks guys. Thanks guys. Thanks guys. Thanks guys. Thanks guys. Thanks guys. America's Gold Authority